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Navy.ca => Navy General => Topic started by: Eye In The Sky on July 07, 2017, 21:23:18

Title: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: Eye In The Sky on July 07, 2017, 21:23:18
Article Link (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/hmcs-goose-bay-commanding-officer-relieved-of-duty-over-inappropriate-comments-1.4195423)

'The incident involved inappropriate comments that were directed to a subordinate,' says military spokerson

The commanding officer of HMCS Goose Bay has been relieved of his command after an incident earlier this week involving inappropriate comments to a subordinate, according to the Canadian Forces.

Lt.-Cmdr. Robert Tucker was removed as the commanding officer of the coastal defence vessel and posted onshore on Thursday.

A spokesperson for Maritime Forces Atlantic and Joint Task Force Atlantic, Lt.-Cmdr. Jordan Holder, said the incident happened when the ship was alongside Caraquet, N.B., earlier this week.

"The incident involved inappropriate comments that were directed to a subordinate and witnessed by other subordinates and alcohol was a factor," Holder told CBC News on Friday.

'Unusual' for commanding officer to be removed

Holder said he believed the incident happened on the ship. There are about 40 crew members on board HMCS Goose Bay.

"There was concern from the chain of command that given the nature of the incident, that the trust of his subordinates may have been undermined and therefore the chain of command had lost confidence in his ability to continue command," Holder said.

He admitted it was "unusual" for a commanding officer to be removed from a ship.

Holder said the investigation into the incident is over and that Tucker's removal from command is permanent.

"There may be additional administrative actions taken," he said.
Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: jollyjacktar on July 07, 2017, 21:41:46
Sigh..... MCDVs and alcohol, again. :facepalm:
Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: kratz on July 07, 2017, 22:03:29
[sarcasm] *shrug* At least it's a fleet ship now, and not 'just' a reserve ship [/sarcasm]   [:-[
Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: PuckChaser on July 07, 2017, 22:31:42
At what point does the Navy say "Enough is enough", and port visits are limited to 2 beer per day, or no alcohol at all?
Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: kratz on July 07, 2017, 22:51:45
Rarely have tall tales, memorable events or unit characters ever been known to occur under the puritan PC microscope of modern life. Enjoying a round, a 'run ashore', or hoisting a few are traditions that do not need to be pilloried, when training and leadership work effectively. Blaming the ills of  few to affect all leads, in large part what we are seeing play out in public with larger issues.
Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: FSTO on July 07, 2017, 23:18:01
I know the CO. This sucks.
Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: Chief Stoker on July 08, 2017, 00:41:33
Sigh..... MCDVs and alcohol, again. :facepalm:

I will guarantee you that all ships in the fleet has the occasional problem with alcohol not just MCDV's. That being said I personally know Rob Tucker, as my OPS O, XO and worked for him at Sea Training Atlantic. I am very surprised that this happened as he was known as someone who ran a good unit. I know according to the Global news it was at a cocktail party on their Great lakes Deployment, and that their XO is the one who reported it. Apparently it was a comment and wasn't an OPERATION HONOR incident.

Extremely disapointed

Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: Navy_Pete on July 08, 2017, 11:52:52
At what point does the Navy say "Enough is enough", and port visits are limited to 2 beer per day, or no alcohol at all?

That has been the status quo for the last number of major deployments under the CJOC rules; was on CHA up until Jan on a NATO.  I think they changed that for the current STJ deployment but it coincided with them dropping the danger level (again).

Not saying people necessarily followed that all the time when they got hotels ashore, but everyone stayed in groups and looked after their wingers, so aside from a few one offs that were off on their own and got up to shenanigans, it was fine.

The great lake trips are a huge PR trip though, and you basically sail from cocktail party to cocktail party while letting Canadians come on board for tours.  It's the Canadian equivalent to the 'fleet weeks' they do in the US, but more of a pain as there is a lot of time at specials going through the locks and alot of coming in/leaving ports.  The trade off for all this is they are supposed to be fun for the sailors (particularly if you stop in your home town) so if the Navy made the shore visits dry, you may as well cancel it.

People are supposed to be adults; we have rules in place for when adults do stupid things.  Use the rules in place to deal with those individuals and leave the other several hundred well behaved people alone.  Group punishments just add another nail in the already sturdy coffin of reasons for people to take their valuable skillsets and go find other work, and the Navy already has personnel shortages to put our existing fleet to sea.

Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: Retired AF Guy on July 08, 2017, 16:49:22
That has been the status quo for the last number of major deployments under the CJOC rules; was on CHA up until Jan on a NATO.  I think they changed that for the current STJ deployment but it coincided with them dropping the danger level (again).

Can you explain for this landlubber what CJOC rules; CHA; and, STJ are? And what do danger levels have to do with a PR event on the east coast?
Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: ArmyVern on July 08, 2017, 16:55:37
Can you explain for this landlubber what CJOC rules; CHA; and, STJ are? And what do danger levels have to do with a PR event on the east coast?

CJOC (Canadian Joint Operations Command) and CJOC's Rule:  2 beer per man per day perhaps while deployed on operational taskings.  Danger levels may see that "perhaps" equating zero, more etc.

CHA - HMCS Charlottetown and STJ -  HMCS St John's.
Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: Chief Stoker on July 08, 2017, 17:06:44
CJOC (Canadian Joint Operations Command) and CJOC's Rule:  2 beer per man per day perhaps while deployed on operational taskings.  Danger levels may see that "perhaps" equating zero, more etc.

CHA - HMCS Charlottetown and STJ -  HMCS St John's.

That's two beer per day while alongside as alcohol is not permitted while underway, unless a special occasion is deemed by the Commanding officer such as a Up Spirits or Banyan (BBQ). During the lakes deployment there is no limit on what you can consume while alongside, you are expected to behave in a respectful manner.
Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: ArmyVern on July 08, 2017, 17:11:36
That's two beer per day while alongside as alcohol is not permitted while underway, unless a special occasion is deemed by the Commanding officer such as a Up Spirits or Banyan (BBQ). During the lakes deployment there is no limit on what you can consume while alongside, you are expected to behave in a respectful manner.

Seen. The "perhaps" is always the important bit.  It can often equal "per month", "none", "lots" on TLD, "two applies" while transitioning  in/out etc.  So many combinations of "Two per day per man perhaps" dependant upon risk factors, tasks (at sea or not? In the field or not?), common sense possession level of the applicable "authorizing" authority etc etc etc.

Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: Eye In The Sky on July 08, 2017, 19:30:41
People are supposed to be adults; we have rules in place for when adults do stupid things.  Use the rules in place to deal with those individuals and leave the other several hundred well behaved people alone.  Group punishments just add another nail in the already sturdy coffin of reasons for people to take their valuable skillsets and go find other work, and the Navy already has personnel shortages to put our existing fleet to sea.

I have to agree with your post and in particular the part quoted above.  When the Army or Air Force go on TD, there are no rules in place other than the usual ones WRT having some drinks.  For us who operate aircraft, we have the 12 hour bottle to throttle or 8 hours before duty, whichever applies.  Even then, if you overdo it and show up still under the effects/unable to perform duties, there are consequences.

Unfortunately, with the negative press over alcohol-related stuff with the CAF, the recent events on Canada Day, etc, the senior leadership will feel the need to be seen to act if/when stuff such as this hits the news.

And, IMO, its clear the media is willing to publish anything negative WRT the CAF. 
Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: ModlrMike on July 08, 2017, 19:45:33
And, IMO, its clear the media is willing to publish anything negative WRT the CAF.

Welcome (back) to the 80s!
Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: Retired AF Guy on July 09, 2017, 10:49:20
CJOC (Canadian Joint Operations Command) and CJOC's Rule:  2 beer per man per day perhaps while deployed on operational taskings.  Danger levels may see that "perhaps" equating zero, more etc.

CHA - HMCS Charlottetown and STJ -  HMCS St John's.

thank you.
Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: Haggis on July 09, 2017, 12:00:28
People are supposed to be adults; we have rules in place for when adults do stupid things.  Use the rules in place to deal with those individuals and leave the other several hundred well behaved people alone.

This has always been my approach.  Treat your soldiers like adults and they will respect you for it.  Deal with those who can't adult well by using the NDA/CSD and/or the applicable DAOD.  When I was an RSM and there were no restrictions in place I would tell the troops "You can get drunk.  You can get stupid.  Don't combine the two."
Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: daftandbarmy on July 09, 2017, 12:05:45
This has always been my approach.  Treat your soldiers like adults and they will respect you for it.  Deal with those who can't adult well by using the NDA/CSD and/or the applicable DAOD.  When I was an RSM and there were no restrictions in place I would tell the troops "You can get drunk.  You can get stupid.  Don't combine the two."

Priceless  :rofl:
Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: ModlrMike on July 09, 2017, 13:09:32
"You can get drunk.  You can get stupid.  Don't combine the two."

In my experience these two states have a high power of attraction for each other, and combination is almost unavoidable.
Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: captloadie on July 10, 2017, 10:59:42
I think we are concentrating too much on the alcohol aspect of this. It was reported that the CO made inappropriate comments, that were not Op HONOUR related. Why does it matter if he had been drinking or not. It doesn't even matter what he said. We as leaders need to understand there is a time and a place, and if we can't figure it out, we shouldn't be doing the job. I learned early in my career that you aren't ever just "one of the guys/gals". You need to know when the appropriate time and place is to cut loose, and who those in your circle are that can be trusted to pull you aside before you make an *** of yourself.
Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: Colin P on July 10, 2017, 11:19:28
I can see the social media and news cycle forcing everything to be run by Puritans, and it will get worse, as the more you clamp down, then the fewer incidents will seem that much larger. From the comments in this thread, it seems odd that he did say anything, perhaps there are under lying reasons that his superiors should inquire about, rather than toss under bus to make example of. Discipline also means looking after your people as well. 
Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: Half Full on July 18, 2017, 16:00:05
Apparently it was a comment and wasn't an OPERATION HONOR incident.

Just to be clear, a comment can be an "OPERATION HONOUR" incident...
Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: Chief Stoker on July 18, 2017, 16:31:13
Just to be clear, a comment can be an "OPERATION HONOUR" incident...

Yes I know and this comment was not.
Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: jollyjacktar on July 18, 2017, 17:09:14
I will guarantee you that all ships in the fleet has the occasional problem with alcohol not just MCDV's. That being said I personally know Rob Tucker, as my OPS O, XO and worked for him at Sea Training Atlantic. I am very surprised that this happened as he was known as someone who ran a good unit. I know according to the Global news it was at a cocktail party on their Great lakes Deployment, and that their XO is the one who reported it. Apparently it was a comment and wasn't an OPERATION HONOR incident.

Extremely disapointed

As you'll note, the comment you quoted has a negative points as another member thought I was being a troll and continuing the stereotyping of NavRes.

I'll repeat more or less my PM to this person. 

"I didn't single out which side of the coin the person came from (REG/RES), just the platform as both sail on them now.  I assured them that I will be as quick to point out a heavy, should they have a alcohol related incident too."

I agree, crap happens on all classes from time to time.  I was one of the investigating MP for a serious incident and alcohol related too, on a heavy back in the 90s when we accompanied the fleet on Caribb Ops.
Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: Lumber on July 18, 2017, 21:52:35
And, IMO, its clear the media is willing to publish anything negative WRT the CAF.

Willing and eager, it seems.

Somewhat tangential:

My wife is an perioperative nurse. The stories she tells me about her days at work make my blood boil, but not because of the actual content of her stories, but how it compares to the way the military is treated when you hear stories about our days.

She'll tell me about how in the middle of surgery the whole surgical team will be making lewd jokes (not constantly, but at opportune moments, like "That's she said!" moments. Doctors and nurses will flirt with each other. She's worked at several different hospitals, and there always seems to be at least one surgeon who's a real touchy-feely guy; and no one seems to give a crap.

Now, I don't think this behaviour is ok, but it just seems unfair that they have such a laissez-faire attitude toward interpersonal behaviour and get zero media attention, and in the CAF if a person sneezes and it sounds like a racial slur the whole world blows their lids.
Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: jollyjacktar on July 18, 2017, 23:40:14
Only on July 1st, and if you're holding a Red Ensign.... and maybe wearing a golf shirt
Title: Re: HMCS Goose Bay commanding officer relieved of duty over 'inappropriate comments'
Post by: Lightguns on July 19, 2017, 08:51:48
Just bought one, now a flag pole for the truck............