Author Topic: Married but paying for rations while on course.  (Read 75137 times)

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Offline peacelove

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #50 on: January 29, 2013, 09:56:14 »
Looking forward to seeing this new CANFORGEN.

Hopefully it will contain actual policies and not vague brainstorming. 

Offline Quellefille

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #51 on: February 05, 2013, 11:50:28 »
Several ladies on the Military Spouses board on facebook have been saying their husbands are being posted, so even with no Canforgen, the plan for guys to be posted and then put on TD for their 3s is proceeding as normal.

Now if only they'd fix it for the MSCs.

Offline DAA

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #52 on: February 05, 2013, 12:38:20 »
The problem has been addressed as best it could.  Personnel enrolled prior to 1 Sep 12 will be sort of "grand-fathered" by way of "creative posting instrs" and will not be paying for R&Q until they are occupationally trained and off the BTL.  Those who enrolled 1 Sep 12 and on are considered to "have been advised of the cost implications for entry level training and agreed to the impacts before enrolling in the CF."

There is no mention of MSC's, pers who underwent an OT, CT or any other current serving member.  From what I can tell, this ONLY applies to "new enrolments" which occurred prior to 1 Sep 12.

Not much more can be done.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 12:55:14 by DAA »
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Offline Quellefille

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #53 on: February 05, 2013, 14:02:27 »
I think they're also doing the creative instructions for those underwent an OT.

Offline SentryMAn

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #54 on: February 05, 2013, 17:17:26 »
This new system is making me very nervous, I am not in the CF but have an application in for Log O.  I am married, maintain an apartment and such now.  If I am sent away on training and have to pay R & Q I hope I will at ateast be able to claim the expense on my taxes come April.  It would fall under the realm of mandatory work expenses required to complete the job I am employed to do.
But I think I have a different situation where I have already done BMOQ and some trade trg.



Offline DAA

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #55 on: February 05, 2013, 17:40:48 »
If I am sent away on training and have to pay R & Q I hope I will at ateast be able to claim the expense on my taxes come April.  It would fall under the realm of mandatory work expenses required to complete the job I am employed to do.

An interesting concept but I don't think it will work.  You would need the CF to complete a T2200 on your behalf and that just isn't going to happen.  Mind you, filing annual Income Tax returns is a personal matter, so you can pretty much claim anything that you think you're entitled to.  The problem comes when CRA decides to audit you because your claiming something that you have never claimed before and seems out of the ordinary.  And then you need the paperwork/documentation to back up your claim.

There are a few things to consider on this front.  That you are considered to be a "salaried employee" and that the CF/DND have paid for your travelling expenses to get you to your place of employment.

At the very least, you should not be paying for "quarters", as a result of a "Prohibited" posting.  Other than that, your on your own.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 17:44:14 by DAA »
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Offline NavyHopeful

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #56 on: February 11, 2013, 09:41:44 »
OK... So I have some more information regarding this.  My PO gave me a copy of an email that pertains to this subject, and was sent through our trade career manager from the BTL management.

Basically, the crux of it is that any BTL NCM students that who were enrolled before 1 Sep 12 and will remain on the BTL after 1 Feb 13 are among those who qualify for this.  (NCMs who are in training now at different units, and NCM-SEPs are among the numbers)

If the member is leaving CFLRS to their next unit, CFLRS will remain the parent unit, and the member will be sent to the next training location on Attached Posting.

NCM-SEP students will remain posted with their applicable ULO and sent on to their next training location after graduation on Attached Posting.

Anyone who is already Prohibited Posted and on their courses (like me), and wre entitled to R&Q at public expense, will be posted RESTRICTED out of thier schools and into their first employing unit by the D Mil C Career Managers.  The employing units will immediately Attach Post the students back to the school to complete their training.  After graduating the required training, the member would THEN move to their employing unit, and the gaining CO will be able to lift the restrictions and allow the move of family and HG&E.

As far as I know, this only applies to NCMs under the old rules.  I was also told that a new CANFORGEN should be out soon about this, but the email was sent now, just in case the CANFORGEN isn't released by 1 Feb 13, so that our staff and clerks have some sort of guideline...

So now, we wait and see what happens next, I guess...

Further news on this...

New people have been arriving at CFNES, and if they fall into this category, they have been Attached Posted.  The ones who were here before (like me) have now been posted back to BTL at NDHQ, and then Attached Posted back to CFNES.

As for the rumoured CANFORGEN, the only things I have seen coming through the Message Centre are creeative posting messages, and retroactive attach postings.

To anyone who thinks they fell through the cracks on this, I advise you to seek help from your CoC.  Mine went to bat for the bunch of us here in this situation, and I'm sure that if you are one of the candidates who meet the criteria, they will be more than willing to help you out.

Good luck to all!

Rev

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #57 on: February 11, 2013, 09:53:05 »
So it appears the tide is turning and the people who are posted (prohibited) while attending basic and initial occupation/classification trg are starting to be looked after.  That is good to see.

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Offline Tcm621

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #58 on: February 18, 2013, 16:08:19 »
The problem has been addressed as best it could.  Personnel enrolled prior to 1 Sep 12 will be sort of "grand-fathered" by way of "creative posting instrs" and will not be paying for R&Q until they are occupationally trained and off the BTL.  Those who enrolled 1 Sep 12 and on are considered to "have been advised of the cost implications for entry level training and agreed to the impacts before enrolling in the CF."

There is no mention of MSC's, pers who underwent an OT, CT or any other current serving member.  From what I can tell, this ONLY applies to "new enrolments" which occurred prior to 1 Sep 12.

Not much more can be done.!

This is no longer the case.  As of today, I was informed I will be paying rations back dated to 1 Feb. AT The last briefing shortly after the beg. Of Feb we were told SA was gone but rations and quarters were were paid for. The cbi reflected that. Now it is just quarters. Anyone who doesn't want to move there family was advanced posted then TDed back. Those of us who are moving our families but are going unaccompanied while the sale of our house goes through are ****ed.
At least when they were going to duck us over in sept they gave us some notice. I can't even delink because air command has forbidden it.

Needless to say I am pissed. I have never been more upset  and disappointed in my 17 years in the CF

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #59 on: February 18, 2013, 16:23:17 »

I can't even delink because air command has forbidden it.

Needless to say I am pissed. I have never been more upset  and disappointed in my 17 years in the CF

That is certainly NOT the case.  THere is a CANAIRGEN of recent release authorizing the de-linking of R & Q and the specifics that go along with the ability to do this.  It was late 2012/early 2013.

Take a look for it.  I won't be back to work until Thurs, or would post it.

Also, FWIW, this was not a policy that the CF went looking for, rather it was from the TB.  At the end of the day, AFC/Snr Leadership is like the rest of us, and when they are issued marching orders, they are expected to carry them out.   :2c:

Now, I will ALSO add that, IF the government is looking for ways to save money, great, but is there not a BETTER way to do it, like cutting out actual wasteful spending first?   ::) 
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 16:28:17 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline NavyHopeful

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2013, 12:06:36 »
Quote
Now, I will ALSO add that, IF the government is looking for ways to save money, great, but is there not a BETTER way to do it, like cutting out actual wasteful spending first?   ::)

*quickie rant*

I agree... I am sick of my tax dollars being spent on politician's fancy houses and cars.  Sure, you can look professional, and have a nice house, but do you REALLY need $150,000 a year to do it?  I know lawyers who make less than a third of what politicians make, and they live comfortably enough...

(That said, the lawyers I'm referring to are based mainly in Legal Aid or working smaller stuff, like real estate law.  I actually worked for a lawyer who, after paying the Bar dues and income taxes, took home less money that I did, and he was still able to live comfortably, albeit a heck of a lot more frugally than I was living...)

*end of rant*

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #61 on: February 19, 2013, 12:57:30 »
SUBJ: DELINKING OF RATIONS AND QUARTERS

CANAIRGEN 01/13

REFS: A. CANAIRGEN 012/09 CAS 17/09
B. CANAIRGEN CAS 027/09
C. DAOD 3012-1
D. CFTDTI 1 JANUARY 2012   
SUBJECT: DELINKING OF RATIONS AND QUARTERS
 
1.  IN OCT 12, CHIEF OF THE AIR FORCE STAFF INDICATED HIS INTENT TO
DELINK RATIONS AND QUARTERS (R AND Q) IN THE ROYAL CANADIAN AIR
FORCE (RCAF).  SUBSEQUENTLY, THE CDS PROVIDED DIRECTION TO DELINK R
AND Q ACROSS THE CF EFF 26 OCT 12 AND ORDERED A SYSTEMIC REVIEW OF
RQ POLICIES BY FALL 13. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE REF A MANDATE FOR
LINKING OF R AND Q FOR QUOTE LIVING IN UNQUOTE PERSONNEL IS
RESCINDED.  LIVING IN PERS WILL BE PROVIDED THE OPTION TO REMAIN ON
RATION STRENGTH AND PAY FOR FULL RATIONS (TWENTY ONE MEALS PER WEEK)
OR PAY FOR PARTIAL RATIONS (TEN MEALS PER WEEK) PER REF B. LIVING IN
MEMBERS WHO ELECT TO FULLY DELINK WILL RETAIN THE OPTION FOR POINT
OF SALE (PAY AS YOU GO) MEAL PURCHASES IAW REF C HOWEVER SUBJECT TO
AVAILABILITY (SURPLUS CAPACITY)

2. PER REF D, USE OF QUARTERS FOR PERS ON TRAVEL OR ATTACHED POSTING
SHALL CONTINUE TO BE MAXIMIZED AND RATIONS WILL REMAIN LINKED WHEN
UTILIZING MILITARY ACCOMMODATIONS FOR THIS PURPOSE.  FURTHERMORE,
WCOMDS SHALL MAINTAIN LINKING OF R AND Q FOR TRAINING AND/OR
OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENTS OR WHEN EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES PREVAIL
THAT MAKE DELINKING IMPRACTICABLE


3.  DELINKING IS NOT TO BE PERCEIVED AS BLANKET AUTHORITY FOR LIVING
IN PERS TO COMMENCE FOOD/MEAL PREPARATION WHILE OCCUPYING SQ. THE
FOCUS ON SAFETY AND HYGIENE IN THE QUARTERS AND HEALTHY EATING
HABITS REMAINS PARAMOUNT. WCOMDS ARE TO DETERMINE, IN CONSULTATION
WITH CE AND PMED, IF AND TO WHAT EXTENT PREPARATION AND STORAGE OF

FOOD IN SPECIALLY DESIGNATED AREAS OF QUARTERS CAN BE AUTHORIZED AND
PUBLISH LOCAL ORDERS TO THAT EFFECT

4.  ALL LIVING IN PERSONNEL ARE TO BE ADVISED THAT THEY SHALL NOT
PREPARE FOOD OR COOK MEALS IN THEIR ROOMS OR SQ COMMON AREAS WITHOUT
PRIOR AUTHORITY AND FULL COMPLIANCE OF LOCAL REGULATIONS. WING
AUTHORITIES ARE TO ULTIMATELY ENSURE THAT HIGH STANDARDS OF SAFETY
AND HYGIENE IN THE QUARTERS ARE ENFORCED AT ALL TIMES

5.  FOR THE INTERIM, ONLY EXISTING PURPOSE BUILT INFRASTRUCTURE AND
PRE EXISTING, AND APPROPRIATELY CERTIFIED, APPLIANCES SHALL BE USED
TO SP LOCAL REQUIREMENTS.   WCOMDS ARE TO CONSIDER OPPORTUNITIES TO
MODIFY, RETROFIT OR REPLACE SINGLE QUARTERS TO PERMIT THE STORAGE OR
PREPARATION OF FOOD OR MEALS

6.  FOR RCAF PERS SERVING ON BASES UNDER DIFFERENT CUSTODIAL L1 S,
IT IS ANTICIPATED THAT DIRECTION WILL BE ISSUED IN THE NEAR FUTURE. 
CMP WILL LEAD THE DEVELOPMENT OF A NEW POLICY REGARDING THE LINKAGE
OF R AND Q CF WIDE WITH THE OBJECTIVE OF IDENTIFYING THE GAPS AND
DEFICIENCIES IN CURRENT POLICY AND ADDRESSING ISSUES INCLUDING, BUT
NOT LIMITED TO, EXCEPTIONS TO DELINKING, CRITERIA FOR AND EXTENT OF
MEAL PREPARATION IN QUARTERS AND AFFORDABILITY OF RATIONS IN DINING
FACILITIES

7. THE RCAF WILL REMAIN WELL REPRESENTED IN THESE DISCUSSIONS AND
FURTHER INFORMATION ON THIS WILL BE DISSEMINATED AS IT BECOMES
AVAILABLE
 
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 13:00:19 by Dolphin_Hunter »

Offline Occam

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #62 on: February 19, 2013, 12:59:18 »
That is certainly NOT the case.  THere is a CANAIRGEN of recent release authorizing the de-linking of R & Q and the specifics that go along with the ability to do this.  It was late 2012/early 2013.

DWAN link - http://airforce.mil.ca/canairgens/2013/141649ZJAN13_e.htm

Offline Tcm621

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2013, 19:44:01 »
As DOLPHIN_Hunter posted above, pers at training est are not allowed to de-link. The crazy thing is that the Air Force probably has the highest number of re-musters in the training system. So you have a tar load of guys who have 5,10, 15 years + in the CF getting screwed. Now guys are going to tell the CF to pound sand when they give them a posting message for a course that starts in less then a month. That is what happened to me and I know there are a lot of people in my situation. I also just talked to a guy who arrived from CFLRS on Sunday and he had no idea he had to pay rations until I started ranting about it yesterday. I guess because everyone was sure that they wouldn't frig over people like that, they just stopped telling recruits about it.

You got to love the concept that if you join the CF and you have a family, you are expected to survive on 2200 gross a month. After taxes that is about 18500 a year. With a family of 4 that puts you under the poverty line by about 5 grand (if you live in butt frig Manitoba). Welcome back to the early 90s.

Offline PPCLI Guy

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2013, 20:51:40 »
You got to love the concept that if you join the CF and you have a family, you are expected to survive on 2200 gross a month. After taxes that is about 18500 a year. With a family of 4 that puts you under the poverty line by about 5 grand (if you live in butt frig Manitoba). Welcome back to the early 90s.

I'll bite.

How about if you gross 2200 a month, you make the reasonable decision not to live in a single income family, and not to have two children. 

No one forces you to marry and procreate, least of all the CF.

Welcome to taking responsibility for one's own decisions.
"The higher the rank, the more necessary it is that boldness should be accompanied by a reflective mind....for with increase in rank it becomes always a matter less of self-sacrifice and more a matter of the preservation of others, and the good of the whole."

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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2013, 21:02:23 »
Pte 1 is an entry level position; after that, all ranks of the CF are remunerated quite handsomely.  Even the first level of Private still possesses very competitive benefits.  You won't convince me that any CF member is in the poor house due to poor pay and benefits, because it is simply not true.
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Offline PrairieThunder

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2013, 21:17:04 »
I'll bite.

How about if you gross 2200 a month, you make the reasonable decision not to live in a single income family, and not to have two children. 

No one forces you to marry and procreate, least of all the CF.

Welcome to taking responsibility for one's own decisions.

Ahh... gone are the days of budgeting and living within your means, aren't they?  ;)

Offline Tcm621

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #67 on: February 20, 2013, 06:59:31 »
I'll bite.

How about if you gross 2200 a month, you make the reasonable decision not to live in a single income family, and not to have two children. 

No one forces you to marry and procreate, least of all the CF.

Welcome to taking responsibility for one's own decisions.

In this case,, he already had the kids and his wife got downsized.  I am just surprised that a CF member can be below the poverty line. I thought those days were gone.

Offline Jewel144

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #68 on: February 20, 2013, 10:32:38 »
Ahhh yes, but don't forget the "other" incomes that help alleviate that poverty level.  Child Tax benefit, the working supplement and so on.

Sure it's tough, but it's do-able.  And you find out fast real needs vs wants.  There is a big difference.

**and call me crazy, but is this not a discussion you have with your spouse before taking this big leap and loss of income??  One has to assume you prepare a little for it??
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 10:43:35 by newwifey »

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #69 on: February 20, 2013, 10:45:22 »
Odd.  When I look at the pay scale, a Pte starts at $2751 per month, gross - 25% more than suggested in the earlier post.  That's over $33K per year (again, gross).

Monthly rate increases by $612 the next year, and $676 the following year.  So, with two years in the military, monthly pay will be $4039; that's over $48K per year, gross, for a private.


http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/pr-sol/rfncmr-mrfr-eng.asp
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #70 on: February 20, 2013, 13:13:38 »
Quote
2. PER REF D, USE OF QUARTERS FOR PERS ON TRAVEL OR ATTACHED POSTING
SHALL CONTINUE TO BE MAXIMIZED AND RATIONS WILL REMAIN LINKED WHEN
UTILIZING MILITARY ACCOMMODATIONS FOR THIS PURPOSE.  FURTHERMORE,
WCOMDS SHALL MAINTAIN LINKING OF R AND Q FOR TRAINING AND/OR
OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENTS OR WHEN EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES PREVAIL
THAT MAKE DELINKING IMPRACTICABLE

Not delinking R&Q during course while on TD or Att Post is not the same as delinking for living-in members (either living-in by choice, or on IR).

The CANAIRGEN Para 2. uses ongoing linking to actually provide R&Q to members on course, hence why the January rush to post trainees on the BTL to their (post-course) gaining unit, then immediately att post them back to the school.  That way, the CF (RCAF) is responsible for providing R&Q for those pers undergoing initial trade training.  I know this to be true for one particular unit and I am assuming (dangerous, I know) that other RCAF units' personnel are being treated simliarly.  If not, the personnel who were recently posted to their gaining unit then attach posted back onto the basic training list should engage with their CoC back at their home unit to clarify their specific situation.

Regards
G2G

Offline MCG

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #71 on: February 20, 2013, 13:24:43 »
TD and attached postings are both covered under CFTDTI.
All pers attached posted to a trg establishment should (if that establishment is not geo-located with the home unit) be getting full TD benefits.

Offline Tcm621

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #72 on: February 20, 2013, 15:51:33 »
Odd.  When I look at the pay scale, a Pte starts at $2751 per month, gross - 25% more than suggested in the earlier post.  That's over $33K per year (again, gross).

Monthly rate increases by $612 the next year, and $676 the following year.  So, with two years in the military, monthly pay will be $4039; that's over $48K per year, gross, for a private.


http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/pr-sol/rfncmr-mrfr-eng.asp

2200 is after rations, which is the topic at hand. I apologize if that wasn't clear. The people this is going to hurt the most are the new privates in training. They are not all 18 year old single dudes anymore. Alot of them have families now.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #73 on: February 20, 2013, 15:54:47 »
2200 is after rations, which is the topic at hand...

That's net, not gross.

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #74 on: February 20, 2013, 17:35:09 »
Alot of them have families now.

Which several people have pointed out are choices that they have made.  The CF shouldn't be responsible for poor life planning on the part of others. 
Hope is not a valid COA