Author Topic: VOT 2015, 16, 17, 18...............  (Read 179812 times)

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Offline Andraste

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Re: VOT 2015, 16, 17, 18...............
« Reply #550 on: July 23, 2016, 07:18:54 »
snip . . . How you are scored on the interview depends on the PSO and every PSO will score differently since they are human and not a computer spitting out a score. The trade you are trying to OT to has absolutely nothing to do with the boards either. It is a PSO.

Hello,

I missed your last part in my reading so I just wanted to bring a bit of fidelity to your observations. WRT the PSO interview and rating error, yes and no.  You are correct that each of us when rating another individual will see things differently but this holds more to what is referred to as a "unstructured interview".  Specifically, I ask you a lot of open ended questions of my choosing (may differ depending on how I feel that day) I take a few notes then render a decision based on my own devised scoring process.  If another person was to interview you again and employ the same process the score would most likely be significantly different.  In addition you have to work in any biases I am may have towards you which may flavor how I score you.  In the CAF selection model this is mitigated by employing a structured interview. Specifically, candidates are all asked the same questions relating to skills and experience (biodata) and each is scored using the same rating scale (i.e., there is no judgment).  Will some error creep in?  Potentially, but the bracketing between scores is quite small so identical answers from two different people assessed by different PSOs may differ by .05 - 1 point.

I am not sure what you meant by the "the trade you are trying to OT to has nothing to do with boards either. It is a PSO".  PSOs provide a recommendation based on the file (CFAT, TSD, Interview, admin/disciplinary issues, personnel file review).  It is just that . . . a scored recommendation.  The file is sent to a national board and the target MOSID folks review each file and make a selection.  Does the PSO recommendation weigh heavily?  Most likely as it is a summary of the applicant's ability to perform well in the target MOSID.

Hope this helps shine a bit of light on things.

Cheers

Andraste

Offline DrSize

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Re: VOT 2015, 16, 17, 18...............
« Reply #551 on: July 25, 2016, 12:08:43 »
Actually this does help shine some light on the thought process behind everything.  This should help people applying for an OT in the future as I wish I had some of this background prior to applying.  Once again, the best advice I can give for people going through the process is to make sure you have a strong CFAT score.

Offline cld617

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Re: VOT 2015, 16, 17, 18...............
« Reply #552 on: August 08, 2016, 20:57:25 »
Curious if anyone has experience pursuing a VOT while opted out of receiving PER's in their current trade. My desire to progress beyond my current rank in MOC is nil, however I do not want to shoot myself in the foot by appearing as an underachiever in my VOT application to a very competitive trade.

Offline Dingoo

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Re: VOT 2015, 16, 17, 18...............
« Reply #553 on: September 13, 2016, 08:29:41 »
To Andraste and Eye in the Sky;

I have read the posts on this thread that you guys have made in regards to AVOTP, and am hoping you can clear something up for me. I am currently a WEng Tech on my DP1 package and am hoping to transfer to ATIS Tech. I have been hearing different answers from many different people, of all ranks and positions, on where I need to be in my training in order to apply for the AVOTP. So far my chain of command beleives I have to be ON my DP2 package in order to apply, yet a CPO2 I spoke with beleive I should be able to apply right now. As you guys have stated the CFAO 11-12 states that you must be QL 4 qualified, and I beleive, if I understood correctly, that you guys stated that if a trade has no QL4 qualification, then QL3 is used instead OR the trades Operational Functional Point (OFP)? As I understand, my trade has no QL4 qualification. Its QL3, then DP1 then DP2, then QL5, and if the OFP is when you are posted to your first operational billet, then I beleive that is also QL3, as I assume that would be when you are posted to a ship.  If you guys could help me understand I would be very appreciative as being able to apply now over having to finish my DP1 in order to apply is a huge difference for me. If you need anymore info let me know.  :)

Thanks guys

Offline sidemount

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Re: VOT 2015, 16, 17, 18...............
« Reply #554 on: September 13, 2016, 09:08:39 »
I would give a call to the PSOs office where you are at,  I'm sure they would have an answer for you right away

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Offline Dingoo

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Re: VOT 2015, 16, 17, 18...............
« Reply #555 on: September 13, 2016, 09:14:47 »
Hey,

Thanks for the reply sidemount. I actually had a meeting with a BPSO ealier this year and was told basically that they dont know what QL4 is for WEng Techs and that they just go with whatever the applicants chain of command says. I was pretty shocked about that as thats where most people I've talked to have told me to go for answers. :/

Offline sidemount

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Re: VOT 2015, 16, 17, 18...............
« Reply #556 on: September 13, 2016, 09:29:44 »
Yeah that sounds like a pretty flakey response.

I guess next would be to finish your DP1, get out to your unit and talk with your supervisors there and put in the paperwork if thats what you really want. You will find out pretty quickly if you are good to go or not haha.

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Leadership is solving problems. The day soldiers stop bringing you their problems is the day you have stopped leading them. They have either lost confidence that you can help or concluded you do not care. Either case is a failure of leadership. - Colin Powell

Offline Dingoo

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Re: VOT 2015, 16, 17, 18...............
« Reply #557 on: September 13, 2016, 13:31:24 »
I know exactly what my chain of command will say haha. :P  But I've heard some conflicting information that would make things much easier for me so I am hoping that Eye in the Sky or Andraste might have some answers or insight, as they seem pretty knowlegable on the subject.

Offline DAA

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Re: VOT 2015, 16, 17, 18...............
« Reply #558 on: September 13, 2016, 14:00:34 »
I know exactly what my chain of command will say haha. :P  But I've heard some conflicting information that would make things much easier for me so I am hoping that Eye in the Sky or Andraste might have some answers or insight, as they seem pretty knowlegable on the subject.

Maybe this link will help in understanding the DP levels  --->  http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5031-8.page#ncmpd

In general terms, you can request an Occupational Reassignment (OR) at anytime prior to completion of your QL3 (DP1) training.  This is not the optimum nor preferred route to take, as the CAF hired you for a specific occupation which you accepted.  Nevertheless, if you can't see yourself being employed in your chosen occupation for 4-7 years down the road, then a request for an OR will be your only option other than releasing.  Which SIP an OR would be counted against, Andraste should be able to answer.

Other than that, once you have successfully completed your initial occupation training and posted for first time employment (ie; post QL3/DP1 Trg), you will be subject to the requirements associated with the AVOT Program, which is usually 36 or 48 months of service in the CAF and sometimes needing to be at the rank of Cpl.  If you have access to a DWAN computer, you can always look up the CANFORGENS and search for AVOT, which will show you the requirements for he current/previous years competitions.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: VOT 2015, 16, 17, 18...............
« Reply #559 on: September 13, 2016, 19:42:14 »
The wording in the CFAO is initial occupation trg.  I was a QL3 qual'd ATIS Tech when I applied, and because ATIS had no QL4, they had to accept QL3.

I got my OT.  3 reasons;  (1)  I knew how to find and interpret the regs (2) I didn't fall for the Jedi Mind tricks and (3) I used reasonable arguments to defeat the BS my CofC was using.  Arguments based on policy.

The CFAO has not been superseded yet to my knowledge.  Find and read CFAO 11-12.  The use of OFP is part of a draft DAOD that hasn't been signed off yet and isn't found in the CFAO.  If this went to a grievance, I highly suspect the IA or FA would find in favour of the griever. 
The only time you have too much gas is when you're on fire.

Offline Dingoo

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Re: VOT 2015, 16, 17, 18...............
« Reply #560 on: September 15, 2016, 07:39:27 »
Hey thanks for the reply Eye,

The most I could dig up is DAOD 5031-8 Canadian Forces Professional Development:

Note – CM progresses from DP 1 to DP 2 upon achieving the applicable OFP. The OFP occurs when an NCM completes all qualifications required for first employment in the military occupation. At that point, an NCM is posted off the basic training list to a trained effective strength position. The OFP for each military occupation is contained in the military occupation specification maintained by the DPGR.

As far as my MPRR tells me I am QL3 qualified, also I am posted to a ship and am able to be deployed. Therefore it seems TO ME that that means I am have completed "all qualification required for first employment in the military occupation.".  Would you agree or am I misunderstanding?

I also found this.

CANFORGEN 109/16 CMP 052/16 051414Z JUL 16
2017/2018 VOLUNTARY OCCUPATION TRANSFER (VOT) PROGRAM FOR NCM COMPETITION


2. THE 2017/2018 VOT PROGRAM FOR OFP QUALIFIED CANDIDATES IS OPENED TO ALL OF THE NCM OCCUPATIONS IN ACCORDANCE WITH REF A AND THE 2017/2018 CF INTERNAL STRATEGIC INTAKE PLAN (SIP) FOR REG F PERSONNEL.

It states that the VOT program is for "OFP QUALIFIED CANDIDATES", which would include me if I am interpreting everything properly. It also mentions REF A which is the CFAO 11-12, and that states QL4 qualified. My trade has no QL4 qualification, and you (Eye in the Sky) stated that if there is no QL4 then QL3 must be used, but I haven't been able to come across any documents yet that mention anything like that. Could you direct me to something if you are able?

I'm basically trying to get information together to convince my CoC that I can apply for the AVOTP now and now when my package is completed.

Thanks again for the help and input everyone.

Also DAA, I looked at the link you sent me, and it makes things more confusing haha. Because I am a Leading Seaman, QL3 qualified, on DP1 of my OJTP, and then it says in the DP2 part that you get up to QL5A. But we WEng Techs don't get to QL5 until after our DP2 is finished and we do a Board and THEN go to and complete our specific trade training (either sonar, radar, FC, armament, comms). Agh! Makes no sense to me.

Offline Jayjaycf

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Re: VOT 2015, 16, 17, 18...............
« Reply #561 on: September 15, 2016, 07:59:49 »
Coming from my base BPSO, to apply to the AVOTP program once you reach the OFP of your trade tou are not eligible for the program until you have served a number of years in the trade youre in. That would be 4 years for a gunner like me, it may be more or less for the trade you are in. So unless things have changed very recently, if you just reached the OFP of your trade I dont think you will be eligible for AVOTP just yet.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: VOT 2015, 16, 17, 18...............
« Reply #562 on: September 15, 2016, 16:47:34 »
Combat arms can apply for VOT after 36 months under LOTP.

Find, read CFA0 11-12.  It is still the overall OT regulation for Reg Force NCM (unless the 5000 series DAOD has recently been released and superseded it).  The term OFP is part of the DRAFT DAOD but not found in the CFAO.  I've been down this road, had this argument, and won.  draft policies etc don't supersede a CFAO.

Find this years AVOTP CANFORGEN and have a read of the references.
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Offline Dingoo

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Re: VOT 2015, 16, 17, 18...............
« Reply #563 on: September 16, 2016, 09:46:02 »
Hey Eye,

Yeah the CFAO 11-12 only states QL4, and the there is no DAOD on AVOTP still. I recall you stating in many older posts over the years on this forum that if a trade has no QL4 then they have to use QL3. Is there somewhere I can find this written that you know of, or do you know a way for me to prove or convince the naysayers in my CoC of this fact?

Thanks :)

Offline DAA

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Re: VOT 2015, 16, 17, 18...............
« Reply #564 on: September 16, 2016, 15:53:40 »
Hey Eye,

Yeah the CFAO 11-12 only states QL4, and the there is no DAOD on AVOTP still. I recall you stating in many older posts over the years on this forum that if a trade has no QL4 then they have to use QL3. Is there somewhere I can find this written that you know of, or do you know a way for me to prove or convince the naysayers in my CoC of this fact?

Thanks :)

Have another look at the CANFORGEN you posted above.  It will usually have something there under the eligibility column that will indicate how many years of service you require, prior to being eligible to apply.

You don't have to "convince" your CoC of anything.  Just schedule yourself an appointment with your local BPSO to discuss "career progression/academic upgrading" options and then bring the topic up at that time.  I do believe that in some locations, the BPSO Office will hold monthly or quarterly briefings which are available to everyone and attendance at one of these, is a requirement prior to scheduling a counselling appointment.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: VOT 2015, 16, 17, 18...............
« Reply #565 on: September 20, 2016, 15:24:05 »
The only thing I could offer other than what DAA has said is stuff from my COTP process which was a decade ago.

However, I know that, for several years now, there has been aspects of the draft 5002 DAOD that have made their way into the VOT processes.  The DAOD is still, AFAIK, a draft, hence the use of CFAO 11-12 as the reference.  If the current AVOTP message states CFAO 11-12 as the main reference, then common sense would tell me that any PSO with a shred of ethics would go by the CFAO (this is what happened in my case;  some superiors in my CofC tried to stonewall my OT application when it was determined that my old trades' Career Mgr informed them that, as a Pri 4 unit, he could not post anyone in to replace me).  However, either via PM or on this thread, I think one person who is (I believe) a PSO stated that interim policy was signed off by the CMP and that policy is being used over what the CFAO states.  My experience with these issues tells me it wouldn't stand up to a formal challenge or review, such as a grievance. 

I haven't looked at this years AVOTP CANFORGEN, but do your homework, remember to be polite and proper military bearing, etc when dealing with the PSO office.  Ask questions. "The CANFORGEN says that CFAO 11-12 is the reference for Reg force NCM remusters, but the term OFP isn't found in the CFAO.  Where is the policy that states OFP shall be used, and can I have a copy of it please". 

It is also helpful if someone in your CofC is supportive of your position.  Cross your Ts and dot your Is, and ask for assistance from your CofC if you can if/when you hit walls.
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Offline Sylencer

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OT offer coming in while your deployed
« Reply #566 on: March 10, 2017, 16:11:26 »
Just curious as to how this is handled? Heading to wainwright for 3 months. If I get my offer while I'm there, how will I receive it?

Offline George Wallace

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Re: OT offer coming in while your deployed
« Reply #567 on: March 10, 2017, 16:25:12 »
Just curious as to how this is handled? Heading to wainwright for 3 months. If I get my offer while I'm there, how will I receive it?

You should......unless you have less than competent OR staff.   [:(

It would arrive through your deployed Admin staff.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: VOT 2015, 16, 17, 18...............
« Reply #568 on: March 10, 2017, 18:24:22 »
Also, you could contact the PSO desk and mention you are deployed from X to Y.  If you've been dealing with a specific PSO, you could also ask him/her if it is possible for you to receive notification from them via your civie email that your message arrived "so you know".

I'm assuming you're worried that the message will come with a "must accept by date XX" part and you'll *lose* your OT...nothing new, it's not like units have never screwed at OT offer up before. 
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Offline Sylencer

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Re: VOT 2015, 16, 17, 18...............
« Reply #569 on: March 13, 2017, 22:25:04 »
Precisely,

Also, when responding to your offer. Is that done via email or does any formal paperwork need to be signed at a psp office? Once the offer is accepted, what is the usual procedure afterwards with regards to clearing out of your unit and into your new trade?

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: VOT 2015, 16, 17, 18...............
« Reply #570 on: March 14, 2017, 17:24:34 »
Once I got my VOT Offer message, IIRC the reply was done via an additional VOT Acceptance message that went to a email address.

After that, the next thing you'll get is your VOT Instruction.  It will have all the details on it; rank, pay, eff date, etc.  What you can expect is to be posted to the closest BTL to await training in your new trade.  Whatever the eff date is on your VOT Instruction is the day you are no longer an X, you are now an O.   ;D

If you are changing DEU, you should be able to start that stuff once you have a copy of your VOT Instruction message.

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Offline Sylencer

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Re: VOT 2015, 16, 17, 18...............
« Reply #571 on: March 14, 2017, 20:56:15 »
Well, we shall see how it goes. I don't see myself getting new Deus while in a hooch in wainwright lll. We leave April 14th. I'm assuming if an offer is made, it will be from mid April to mid may.