Author Topic: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy  (Read 94674 times)

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Online E.R. Campbell

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2015, 07:18:39 »
And for maxiumum "we're not walking away effect," have plans firmly in place (and shared w/the public) about cranking up the training part of the mission against ISIS, also as promised:


Yes, it is politically possible to put "boots on the ground" in a low risk situation and still claim to be part of the allied coalition. My guess is that the Canadian media and public would like that solution: training and winter coats and food for refugees.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Online E.R. Campbell

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2015, 09:34:25 »
So, here he is at the G-20 meeting in Turkey:



This G20 summit is "totally overshadowed by events in Paris, immediate security concerns and the fight against terrorism."

But, Katie Telford, the prime minister's chief of staff tweets:

     Katie Telford ‏@telfordk  42m42 minutes ago
     Proud to see @JustinTrudeau argue that climate change is a serious economic issue. #G20 #realchange cc @katepurchase
.
.
.
.
:sarcasm:
I'm just soooooo proud that Justin Trudeau is my prime minister.  :cdnsalute: 
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Offline Bird_Gunner45

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2015, 10:27:17 »
So, here he is at the G-20 meeting in Turkey:



This G20 summit is "totally overshadowed by events in Paris, immediate security concerns and the fight against terrorism."

But, Katie Telford, the prime minister's chief of staff tweets:

     Katie Telford ‏@telfordk  42m42 minutes ago
     Proud to see @JustinTrudeau argue that climate change is a serious economic issue. #G20 #realchange cc @katepurchase
.
.
.
.
:sarcasm:
I'm just soooooo proud that Justin Trudeau is my prime minister.  :cdnsalute:

I can't exactly put my finger on it, but the PM almost seems detached from the Paris attacks. His speech on friday seemed to lack the normal performance value (he almost seemed shell shocked) and the response since then has been muted. Then this about him talking about global warming, which I can only imagine got a big "who cares". It almost seems as if he is desperate to stay on message and unable to adapt to a changing situation. Maybe it's not the case, but it certainly seems that the PM is having difficulty adapting.

Note- this is not to say that we should "whip out our cf-18s" irrationally, but some discussion on refugees (details on the plan, or reassurance that security checks, etc, will be taken) to reinforce why bringing refugees here is important in light of the attack on Paris would seem to be a prudent action to address real concerns. What is happening appears to be akin to the officer who has to stick to the time line and details vice understanding the intent and end state.

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2015, 10:56:06 »
I can't exactly put my finger on it, but the PM almost seems detached from the Paris attacks. His speech on friday seemed to lack the normal performance value (he almost seemed shell shocked) and the response since then has been muted. Then this about him talking about global warming, which I can only imagine got a big "who cares". It almost seems as if he is desperate to stay on message and unable to adapt to a changing situation. Maybe it's not the case, but it certainly seems that the PM is having difficulty adapting.

Note- this is not to say that we should "whip out our cf-18s" irrationally, but some discussion on refugees (details on the plan, or reassurance that security checks, etc, will be taken) to reinforce why bringing refugees here is important in light of the attack on Paris would seem to be a prudent action to address real concerns. What is happening appears to be akin to the officer who has to stick to the time line and details vice understanding the intent and end state.
I wouldn't be surprised if he was experiencing the sweet joys of cognitive dissonance right now, i.e. the world isn't measuring up to his lofty ideals and expectations, and climate change isn't what's preoccupying folks.  I do hope the Canadian electorate are proud of their PM.  ::)

Online E.R. Campbell

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2015, 11:01:18 »
I can't exactly put my finger on it, but the PM almost seems detached from the Paris attacks. His speech on friday seemed to lack the normal performance value (he almost seemed shell shocked) and the response since then has been muted. Then this about him talking about global warming, which I can only imagine got a big "who cares". It almost seems as if he is desperate to stay on message and unable to adapt to a changing situation. Maybe it's not the case, but it certainly seems that the PM is having difficulty adapting.

Note- this is not to say that we should "whip out our cf-18s" irrationally, but some discussion on refugees (details on the plan, or reassurance that security checks, etc, will be taken) to reinforce why bringing refugees here is important in light of the attack on Paris would seem to be a prudent action to address real concerns. What is happening appears to be akin to the officer who has to stick to the time line and details vice understanding the intent and end state.


I think I might understand the politics of it ...

The Paris attacks came just as prime Minister Trudeau was about to leave for Turkey; the G20 speech was written. His immediate remarks were drafted, very, very quickly by his staff ~ they were OK, not bad, sympathetic but non-committal.

On the airplane some staffers, maybe the prime minister himself, said "What now? Do we need to reboot our policies? Should we keep bombing IS** in Syria? Should we really take 25,000 refugees?"

Gerald Butts (my guess) said something like: "Everyone sit down and take a deep breath. We don't know what's going on ... yet. Lee Hsien Loong* and David Cameron* don't really matter; they don't vote, but Lyin' Brian Mulroney was right, you know: in politics "ya dance with the fella what brung ya." In our case, the "fellas what brung us" to power don't want to hear about bombing ~ they don't like bombs nor do they like the people who drop bombs. They do like to hear about climate change and they want us to say and do things about climate change ... that matters, not Syria or Paris. We need to stay the course on getting out of the bombing business ... maybe we need to stay there for a bit longer, but sometime after Christmas we need to bring the CF-18s home. Refugees? I don't know. I've head the security briefs given to the prime minister; it may be prudent to slow the process a bit. Our base will not like it but we can blame the security services ... we're being forced to err on the side of caution, and all that. But, for now: we press on as we planned, as we promised ~ we do not commit to any new military adventures; we can offer some aid and lots and lots of words but we don't want to actually have to do anything ... yet. Remember after 9/11? Canadians demanded that we do something, and we, Liberals, did ~ we sent troops to Afghanistan and in just a few months Canadians were disillusioned with that mission. They wanted out. Our first step is to not commit to going in ... then our second step is get what we already have 'in' out again. Global warming is good; war is bad ... keep telling yourselves that because it is what will get us re-elected. Who knows? Maybe by Christmas El Niño will be causing havoc in all sorts of places and Canadians will think we were really prescient here."

_____


* Lee Hsien Loong, Prime Minister of Singapore is at the right end (other end from Prime Minister Trudeau) of the second row; UK Prime Minister David Cameron is 3rd from the left in the middle row.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2015, 11:05:59 »
I can't exactly put my finger on it, but the PM almost seems detached from the Paris attacks.
Let's not rule out a case of this ....
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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2015, 11:52:36 »
I watched the PM's remarks Friday evening and was disturbed at what I saw. Hopefully I saw inexperience in the face of a rude awakening and not something worse like panic or paralysis of will. After all he had had a pretty good (wild understatement) three or four months and then all at once, virtually as he was getting into the limo to go to the airport, three major terrorist attacks in Paris. Any one of them would have hijacked the news cycle and demanded a major part of his attention attention for the next several days, but three!!

I'm speculating here, but he and his inner circle just got a short, sharp seminar on major crisis management. One can only hope they do better next time, and also apply some sober second thought to their response.

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2015, 12:54:44 »

I think I might understand the politics of it ...

The Paris attacks came just as prime Minister Trudeau was about to leave for Turkey; the G20 speech was written. His immediate remarks were drafted, very, very quickly by his staff ~ they were OK, not bad, sympathetic but non-committal.

On the airplane some staffers, maybe the prime minister himself, said "What now? Do we need to reboot our policies? Should we keep bombing IS** in Syria? Should we really take 25,000 refugees?"

Gerald Butts (my guess) said something like: "Everyone sit down and take a deep breath. We don't know what's going on ... yet. Lee Hsien Loong* and David Cameron* don't really matter; they don't vote, but Lyin' Brian Mulroney was right, you know: in politics "ya dance with the fella what brung ya." In our case, the "fellas what brung us" to power don't want to hear about bombing ~ they don't like bombs nor do they like the people who drop bombs. They do like to hear about climate change and they want us to say and do things about climate change ... that matters, not Syria or Paris. We need to stay the course on getting out of the bombing business ... maybe we need to stay there for a bit longer, but sometime after Christmas we need to bring the CF-18s home. Refugees? I don't know. I've head the security briefs given to the prime minister; it may be prudent to slow the process a bit. Our base will not like it but we can blame the security services ... we're being forced to err on the side of caution, and all that. But, for now: we press on as we planned, as we promised ~ we do not commit to any new military adventures; we can offer some aid and lots and lots of words but we don't want to actually have to do anything ... yet. Remember after 9/11? Canadians demanded that we do something, and we, Liberals, did ~ we sent troops to Afghanistan and in just a few months Canadians were disillusioned with that mission. They wanted out. Our first step is to not commit to going in ... then our second step is get what we already have 'in' out again. Global warming is good; war is bad ... keep telling yourselves that because it is what will get us re-elected. Who knows? Maybe by Christmas El Niño will be causing havoc in all sorts of places and Canadians will think we were really prescient here."

...


It appears that I have guessed wrong. Bill Curry, reporting for the Globe and Mail from the G20 summit says:

     "Mr. Trudeau stood by the target at a leaders summit where the official agenda has been sidelined by the Paris attacks.

      “On the Syrian refugee crisis and the refugee crisis writ large, I’m pleased to say that Canada has tremendous examples of having integrated people fleeing for their lives from very difficult situations to become not only citizens but
      active contributors to Canada’s success,” Mr. Trudeau declared Sunday morning in response to an audience question following a speech to business leaders on the sidelines of the summit.

      “We will be accepting 25,000 Syrian refugees between now and January 1st and investing and ensuring that we will be empowering and integrating them into success and the paths for success that people around the world are hoping to see,” he said.

     Mr. Trudeau’s speech largely focused on his election campaign promises to boost economic growth through infrastructure spending, which he said fits with the international priorities of the G20."
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2015, 13:19:49 »
"An argument for Mr. Trudeau sticking to his pledges is that is that by a larger engagement against IS Canada becomes a higher priority target for its terror."

IOW, feed the crocodile, lest he eat us first.
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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2015, 08:12:24 »
I watched the PM's remarks Friday evening and was disturbed at what I saw. Hopefully I saw inexperience in the face of a rude awakening and not something worse like panic or paralysis of will. After all he had had a pretty good (wild understatement) three or four months and then all at once, virtually as he was getting into the limo to go to the airport, three major terrorist attacks in Paris. Any one of them would have hijacked the news cycle and demanded a major part of his attention attention for the next several days, but three!!

I'm speculating here, but he and his inner circle just got a short, sharp seminar on major crisis management. One can only hope they do better next time, and also apply some sober second thought to their response.


Campbell Clark, in this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail, suggests that the foreign policy path just got "darker" and "more tangled" for our "rookie PM" and his team:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/globe-politics-insider/paris-violence-makes-path-darker-more-tangled-for-the-rookie-pm/article27267325/
Quote

Paris violence makes path darker, more tangled for rookie PM

SUBSCRIBERS ONLY

Campbell Clark
OTTAWA — The Globe and Mail

Published Monday, Nov. 16, 2015

Justin Trudeau wasn’t sure Friday night if the Paris terror attacks would change his policies. “It’s too soon to jump to any conclusions,” he said. By Saturday, aides said the attacks won’t alter plans to bring in 25,000 Syrian refugees or to withdraw from air strikes on Islamic State. On Sunday, at the G20 summit in Turkey, Mr. Trudeau avoided reporters, except for one shouted query.

It was, in mere hours after chilling events, an understandable reaction. It really was too soon to draw conclusions. On Monday, a new prime minister is still coming to grips with how much his world has changed in the hours since Paris.

Suddenly there’s a different test for this untested PM. Most leaders start out of their depth on foreign affairs – Stephen Harper was at first; so was Mr. Trudeau’s father, Pierre. It was almost unfair that Justin Trudeau had to begin, as a green PM, with a string of major global summits. Now, less than two weeks on the job, add a crisis that underlines a real security threat and sparks emotional reaction, that carries big risks abroad and at home, and offers many ways to go wrong.

Until now, every step his young Liberal government has taken, every signal, has been about a change in direction. Many Canadians were embracing those clear symbols. Now, rushed by harsh reality, Mr. Trudeau’s government must mix messages, too.

Think of how allies like France’s President Francois Hollande, who declared war on Islamic State, will speak to a Canadian PM who plans to withdraw from air strikes. That’s no minor matter when a close NATO ally feels under attack, and the world is moved to solidarity. Mr. Trudeau will this week meet U.S. President Barack Obama, leader of that coalition. His G20 host, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, wants to establish a secure corridor in Syria. Mr. Trudeau seems to be traveling in the opposite direction.

Politically, Mr. Trudeau cannot easily turn back on high-profile positions he took in the election campaign he just won. A leader who calls an about-face in a crisis just weeks into office is sure to spread the view his positions were ill-conceived in the first place. No wonder Liberals say plans to withdraw from air strikes and resettle refugees will go ahead. But it will be more complex now.

Mr. Trudeau’s stance on air strikes was opposition positioning, a way to show voters that he was not as gung-ho about war as Mr. Harper. He never could explain it – he favoured sending troops to train Iraqi and Kurdish forces, but not six CF-18s to bomb.

His consolation now is there’s room for interpretation. He could wait months, even until the current mission mandate ends in March, before calling the jets home. He could withdraw with one hand while committing to fighting Islamic State with another, beefing up ground-force training and military support. That might placate allies – Mr. Harper launched a training mission in Afghanistan when he withdrew combat troops.

The plan to bring in 25,000 refugees by year’s end is a more potent symbol of change. The Liberals wanted to exhibit new compassion. They planned to make a virtue of the ambitious target despite suggestions it was logistically impossible. If they failed, they figured they’d get A for effort; if they succeeded, they’d show they had will that Mr. Harper’s government lacked.

But that will be questioned anew. Reports that one Paris attacker had registered as a refugee in Greece have raised new qualms about ISIS infiltrators. Interim Conservative Leader Rona Ambrose quickly questioned the deadline: “Canadians are asking the question, ‘Can we do it this quickly in a secure way?’” she said Saturday.

The Liberals can note it would be cruel to punish Syrian refugees who fled Islamic State because of the Paris attacks. They can note that leaving kids who fled the Assad regime to grow up in camps won’t lessen extremism. On Sunday, Public Works Minister Ralph Goodale pointed out it’s easier to conduct security checks on families selected for resettlement than on migrants arriving on your shores, as in Greece. But he conceded nothing’s foolproof. Last week, the question was whether Mr. Trudeau’s team could meet its political deadline; now the question is whether it should.

Mr. Trudeau can’t just rely on the platform of change now. He had nine sunny days, and then a crisis changed the job.


I agree with Campbell Clark that it will be painfully difficult, practically impossible, to turn away from popular campaign promises so early in the mandate.

I also agree with many Conservative critics that those popular positions were ill-considered, even unconsidered: being designed, off the cuff, only to take progressive votes away from the NDP. But those opportunistic campaign promises worked, and now 40+% of Canadians expect Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to follow through. Let's be clear, most Canadians neither know nor care about bombing campaigns; even some members here, in a military forum, have expressed the view that our, Canadian, bombing was ineffective and will not be missed. Why should we have expected Candidate Trudeau and advisors Gerlad Butts and Katie Telford to have known differently. But, the fact is that he did promise, and a great many, arguably most Canadians want or expect him to keep his promises.

For the moment I am inclined to give Prime Minister Justin Trudeau all the possible benefits of all my many doubts; he's a smart guy with smart advisors; he now has access to expert advice which was unavailable to him prior to 4 Nov 15; I hope he and his whole team will find politically acceptable ways to square the new circle which "events" have just redrawn.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Offline GAP

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2015, 08:34:25 »
Quote
I watched the PM's remarks Friday evening and was disturbed at what I saw. Hopefully I saw inexperience in the face of a rude awakening and not something worse like panic or paralysis of will.

Someone, anyone, needs to teach the silver pony proper diction and speachmaking.......

Standing up to the microphone like a breathless debutant, er ing and ah ing all through his speech makes him seem like a 13 year old asking for a date....it may be endearing to some of his supporters, but it does not come across as mature for a country's leader.....
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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2015, 08:55:29 »
David Akin, of Sun Media, reports, from Turkey that "At G20, Trudeau gets a warm welcome from China."

He writes that:

     "China has welcomed Justin Trudeau into the international family of world leaders like a long-lost son.

      Trudeau and Xi Jinping, China’s president, met Monday morning on the margins of the G20 Summit being held here.

      Xi started off by saying China was grateful for what Pierre Trudeau did in 1970, when Canada became one of the first countries in the West to officially recognize the Communist government in mainland China.

      “That was an extraordinary political vision," Xi told Pierre’s son. "China will always remember that.”

      Xi’s extraordinarily warm greeting to Justin Trudeau, coming less than two weeks after he’d been sworn into the job, is in sharp contrast to Stephen Harper, who had to wait more than three years for a nice word from a Chinese president."



Trust me, this is a gift, one the Chinese perceive as being valuable, and China wants something in return.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2015, 09:07:19 »
ERC, I tend to agree with Campbell Clark also, but personally, I think he missed one mark: Yes, most leaders are out of their depth in Foreign Affairs at first. But Trudeau senior never got out of this depth in my estimation.

And, I am very afraid Trudeau junior will be worse. He may have been a drama teacher, but he obviously can't act. When I saw him on TV from Ottawa just before flying out, I was dismayed: He looked  like he was smiling, happy to be in front on camera and his whole attitude seemed to be: Look I am going on this nice trip and this little Paris thing is not going to sour my mood.

Then I thought, OK, he got caught off guard - that happens -But no, he had that same look when we saw him in Ankara. Every other world leader look somber, even downcast, but here he was looking like a kid in a candy store, and being the only person there still peddling his "infrastructure for the world" economic development plan (which people who briefed him at Foreign Affairs before the trip must have told him did not interest the world, and that he should stick with what DFAIT developed for any PM in advance of this meeting).

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2015, 09:11:14 »

Trust me, this is a gift, one the Chinese perceive as being valuable, and China wants something in return.

The first thing they'll insist on is probably for Canada to  stop bringing their human rights record up at every opportunity their was.

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2015, 09:19:04 »
David Akin, of Sun Media, reports, from Turkey that "At G20, Trudeau gets a warm welcome from China."

He writes that:

     "China has welcomed Justin Trudeau into the international family of world leaders like a long-lost son.

      Trudeau and Xi Jinping, China’s president, met Monday morning on the margins of the G20 Summit being held here.

      Xi started off by saying China was grateful for what Pierre Trudeau did in 1970, when Canada became one of the first countries in the West to officially recognize the Communist government in mainland China.

      “That was an extraordinary political vision," Xi told Pierre’s son. "China will always remember that.”

      Xi’s extraordinarily warm greeting to Justin Trudeau, coming less than two weeks after he’d been sworn into the job, is in sharp contrast to Stephen Harper, who had to wait more than three years for a nice word from a Chinese president."



Trust me, this is a gift, one the Chinese perceive as being valuable, and China wants something in return.

China reaching out is a tremendous opportunity for Canada.  But the question of what they want is one we (the royal we) need to assess and understand before launching off.
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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2015, 09:36:01 »
David Akin, of Sun Media, reports, from Turkey that "At G20, Trudeau gets a warm welcome from China."

He writes that:

     "China has welcomed Justin Trudeau into the international family of world leaders like a long-lost son.

      Trudeau and Xi Jinping, China’s president, met Monday morning on the margins of the G20 Summit being held here.

      Xi started off by saying China was grateful for what Pierre Trudeau did in 1970, when Canada became one of the first countries in the West to officially recognize the Communist government in mainland China.

      “That was an extraordinary political vision," Xi told Pierre’s son. "China will always remember that.”

      Xi’s extraordinarily warm greeting to Justin Trudeau, coming less than two weeks after he’d been sworn into the job, is in sharp contrast to Stephen Harper, who had to wait more than three years for a nice word from a Chinese president."



Trust me, this is a gift, one the Chinese perceive as being valuable, and China wants something in return.

Quote
“Real change”? Why Power Corp, China (and maybe even Jean Chretien) are “back in the drivers seat” after Trudeau win.

http://www.ezralevant.com/real-change-why-power-corp-china-and-maybe-even-jean-chretien-are-back-in-the-drivers-seat-after-trudeau-win/

Justin Trudeau wasn’t kidding when he said communist China was his favourite country.

Trudeau’s transition team is being led by a top China lobbyist in Canada named Peter Harder. Besides being president of the Canada-China Business Council, Harder is on the board of directors of Power Corp.

That’s the massive company that was the power behind the throne of pretty much every Quebec politician for a generation.

Power Corp also has huge government contracts in communist China, including, for example, the contract for the Beijing to Tibet railway — a political project designed to swamp Tibet, by bringing in millions of ethnic Chinese settlers, to stamp out any lingering Tibet culture or politics.

Power Corp run by the billionaire Desmarais family. Andre Desmarais, the president of the company, married Jean Chretien’s daughter. Chretien went to work lobbying China literally within weeks of stepping down as prime minister.

So forget about civil liberties or democracy being part of the Canada-China discussion now that Trudeau is in 24 Sussex.

Now, many don't like Mr Levant and that's fine. However, possibly with the exception of the last sentence, he is stating nothing here that is not fact. I have always surmised that Power Corporation was always the real power behind recent Liberal governments(and possibly a Conservative one). Paul Desmarais helped prime minister Pierre Trudeau open up relations with China by becoming a founding chairman of the Canada China Business Council in 1978 and kept in close touch with succeeding prime ministers, no matter their political affiliation, including Brian Mulroney, Jean Chrétien and Paul Martin.

Methinks the familial ties to the Trudeau clan have never been stronger.

But that's just my  :2c:
At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child – miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats.
-P.J. O’Rouke-


DISCLAIMER - my opinion may cause manginal irritation.

Offline Bird_Gunner45

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2015, 10:45:33 »
David Akin, of Sun Media, reports, from Turkey that "At G20, Trudeau gets a warm welcome from China."

He writes that:

     "China has welcomed Justin Trudeau into the international family of world leaders like a long-lost son.

      Trudeau and Xi Jinping, China’s president, met Monday morning on the margins of the G20 Summit being held here.

      Xi started off by saying China was grateful for what Pierre Trudeau did in 1970, when Canada became one of the first countries in the West to officially recognize the Communist government in mainland China.

      “That was an extraordinary political vision," Xi told Pierre’s son. "China will always remember that.”

      Xi’s extraordinarily warm greeting to Justin Trudeau, coming less than two weeks after he’d been sworn into the job, is in sharp contrast to Stephen Harper, who had to wait more than three years for a nice word from a Chinese president."



Trust me, this is a gift, one the Chinese perceive as being valuable, and China wants something in return.

How can PM Trudeau, with his stance on global warming, possibly get into bed with China, one of the worst (if not the worst) offender of CO2 emissions? Also, how does he square this relationship with China's human rights record when we are currently bringing in 25,000 refugees based on a humanitarian crisis?

Some will say that Harper engaged heavily in China, which is true. However, the Conservatives  heavily criticized the HR record of China and pulled out of Kyoto as it became apparent that without China, India, and the US signing on that Kyoto was pointless. I also wonder what a warming of relations means for previously blocked attempts by the Chinese to buy Canadian resources...

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2015, 10:51:14 »
ERC, I tend to agree with Campbell Clark also, but personally, I think he missed one mark: Yes, most leaders are out of their depth in Foreign Affairs at first. But Trudeau senior never got out of this depth in my estimation.

And, I am very afraid Trudeau junior will be worse. He may have been a drama teacher, but he obviously can't act. When I saw him on TV from Ottawa just before flying out, I was dismayed: He looked  like he was smiling, happy to be in front on camera and his whole attitude seemed to be: Look I am going on this nice trip and this little Paris thing is not going to sour my mood.

Then I thought, OK, he got caught off guard - that happens -But no, he had that same look when we saw him in Ankara. Every other world leader look somber, even downcast, but here he was looking like a kid in a candy store, and being the only person there still peddling his "infrastructure for the world" economic development plan (which people who briefed him at Foreign Affairs before the trip must have told him did not interest the world, and that he should stick with what DFAIT developed for any PM in advance of this meeting).

The first thing they'll insist on is probably for Canada to  stop bringing their human rights record up at every opportunity their was.


Agree, fully with both posts, OGBD.

I have, often, used Isaiah Berlin's famous fox vs. hedgehog analogy to suggest that Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau was true hedgehog: he decided, back in the mod to late 1940s, that nationalism was the cause of all the world's ills and he seemed to believe that Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Castroist communism was the leading edge of a "post-nationalist" world. I have also said, too many times to repeat, that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau lacks gravitas, what the Brits call "bottom." I stick by that analysis.

It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2015, 10:53:11 »
China reaching out is a tremendous opportunity for Canada.  But the question of what they want is one we (the royal we) need to assess and understand before launching off.


Agreed, again ... they will want something besides not being hectored about human rights.

Just because it's China doesn't mean, a priori, that what they want will be bad for us; but, equally, just because it's China doesn't mean it will be a good deal, either.

It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2015, 10:57:09 »
How can PM Trudeau, with his stance on global warming, possibly get into bed with China, one of the worst (if not the worst) offender of CO2 emissions? Also, how does he square this relationship with China's human rights record when we are currently bringing in 25,000 refugees based on a humanitarian crisis?

Some will say that Harper engaged heavily in China, which is true. However, the Conservatives  heavily criticized the HR record of China and pulled out of Kyoto as it became apparent that without China, India, and the US signing on that Kyoto was pointless. I also wonder what a warming of relations means for previously blocked attempts by the Chinese to buy Canadian resources...


And I agree a third time ...

I also agree, in large part, with you recceguy; Power Corp and the Desmarais clan and a few others (think Onex as a CPC supporter) wield great, too great, behind the scenes influence in Canadian politics and policy.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2015, 11:49:51 »
David Akin, Sun News, says, in an internet post from Turkey:

    "Just finished a press conference with the PM. He was pressed over and over and over to reconsider shutting down Canada's anti-ISIS combat mission. But over and over and over again he said, ain't gonna do it."
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2015, 13:31:34 »
In an article in the Ottawa Citizen Lee Berthiaume says that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said, "the government has committed to“step up” its training efforts in the fight against the Islamic State and will withdraw Canadian warplanes from Iraq and Syria before March.

     Speaking at the tail end of the annual G20 summit, where leaders from the world’s 20 richest countries had gathered for the past two days, Trudeau said Canadians “have expressed, certainly over the past months and within the election, that
     they wanted to see a ceasing of the bombing mission.”

     But he said they also want to see Canada continue to “engage robustly” in the fight against ISIL, which is why the government is planning to ramp up its efforts to train Kurdish and other local forces in the region to take on the extremist group.

     “We have made the commitment to step up our efforts training local troops, and that’s something that by all accounts is an important part of the military efforts against ISIL,” Trudeau said. “And I know Canada will continue to, and be seen
     to be continuing to, do its part in the fight against this terrorist scourge.”"


Many people, including Rosie DiManno in the Toronto Star think that "The world cannot stand shoulder to shoulder with Paris while standing down in Syria.

     That barefaced message must surely now have been brought home to nouveau Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, whose first act after winning office was to call off Canada’s military participation in the airstrike coalition against Islamic State
     in Syria and the swath of Iraq the group controls.

     A half-dozen aging CF-18s may be a paltry contribution to the U.S.-led operation but joining in the bombing sorties was still something of substance, of integrity. Not merely symbolic, either, though symbolism matters; being on the
     right side matters. That demands more than mouthed platitudes.

     That right side still includes opening doors to the miserable exodus of refugees fleeing civil war-ravaged Syria. It’s not their fault Islamic State has exported terror beyond the caliphate of its dreams to a precious and beloved European
     capital that had already once this year been targeted by agents of death."


The pressure to "stay the course" will grow stronger ... for a while. The pressure to keep campaign promises will also remain strong ... for a while. It will be interesting to see which prevails.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2015, 13:34:56 »

Agreed, again ... they will want something besides not being hectored about human rights.

Just because it's China doesn't mean, a priori, that what they want will be bad for us; but, equally, just because it's China doesn't mean it will be a good deal, either.

I wonder how China feels about oil exports being restricted from Alberta due to a tanker ban in the North?

Quote
rime Minister Justin Trudeau has called for a moratorium on crude oil tanker traffic for B.C.'s North Coast.

Trudeau outlined the directive in a mandate letter to Canada's transport minister, Marc Garneau, on Friday. In it, he asked Garneau to formalize the agreement with three other ministries: fisheries, natural resources and environment.

It's unclear what impact a moratorium would have on Enbridge's Northern Gateway pipeline, which would carry bitumen from Alberta to Kitimat, B.C. The project was approved in June 2014 with 209 conditions.

"This ban ends the dangerous Northern Gateway pipeline proposal," said Karen Mahon, from ForestEthics, an environmental group that advocates for the protection of B.C.'s coast. "Without tankers, crude oil has no place to go, that means no pipelines, no oil trains moving tarsands to the northern B.C. coast."

Enbridge said in a statement that despite the mandate for a moratorium on tanker traffic, it is confident the federal government will consult with 26 of 45 First Nations that have signed on with the project about what impact a tanker ban could have on them and also a perceived economic boost for Western Canada.


Enbridge describe the Northern Gateway project as having "one of the most exhaustive reviews of its kind in Canadian history."

"We have made significant process building support on the B.C. coast and along the pipeline corridor," said spokesman Ivan Giesbrecht.

"Along with the project's aboriginal equity partners, we are looking forward to an opportunity to sit down with the new prime minister and his cabinet to provide an update on the progress of our project and our partnerships with First Nations and Métis people in Alberta and B.C."

Still, Enbridge says the earliest the pipeline could be built is 2019, prompting some analysts to question whether the company is fully committed to the project given the obstacles it still faces.

The moratorium would require legislation and would no doubt prompt debate in the House of Commons.

The mandate letter from Trudeau comes a week after U.S. President Barack Obama rejected TransCanada's proposed Keystone XL pipeline, saying it did not serve his country's national interests.

Both Trudeau and Obama will be part of the G20 meeting in Antalya, Turkey, this weekend and the United Nations climate change conference in Paris starting on Nov. 30

Also on Friday, Trudeau asked his minister of fisheries and oceans to re-open the Kitsilano Coast Guard station in Vancouver.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/crude-oil-tanker-traffic-moratorium-bc-north-coast-1.3318086


Tangential Comment:

One way around pipeline bans is long trains, short tracks.

Use pipelines to go where jurisdicition permits.  Use trains to jump the gaps - as in the US-Canada border.  AFAIK XL is cleared to the border in Canada and, internally, from the border in the US.  The issue is permission to build a pipeline across the border.   But know such restriction is in place on Warren Buffet's BNSF.

Over, Under, Around or Through.
Anticipating the triumph of Thomas Reid.

"One thing that being a scientist has taught me is that you can never be certain about anything. You never know the truth. You can only approach it and hope to get a bit nearer to it each time. You iterate towards the truth. You don’t know it.”  - James Lovelock

Conservative, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others. [Ambrose Bierce, 1911]

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2015, 13:48:21 »
Many people, including Rosie DiManno in the Toronto Star.....
DiManno now thinks Canada should even have  a military, yet alone use it (for anything besides shoveling out her snowed-in Toronto bus stops)??!    :o


I certainly don't remember doing any hallucinogens today.
  :stars:
I even read works I disagree with;  life outside  an ideological echo chamber.

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Re: Canada's New, Liberal, Foreign Policy
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2015, 14:06:35 »
Michael Den Tandt, writing in the National Post suggests that, on this foreign policy issue, anyway, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is "oddly tone deaf." I disagree. I think it is, right now, just a matter of to whom he is listening.

He is not listening to the national media commentariat or the Conservatives, even the rational ones, he is, I think, listening to ...

               

                    ... and Prime Minister Chrétien is telling him that:

                         1. Military operations do not remain popular for long;

                         2. Campaign promises matter, you cannot keep them all but keep the ones you can; and

                         3. Canadians want to sleep, safe and warm, in their beds at night ~ principled foreign policy doesn't keep you warm.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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