Author Topic: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver  (Read 19375 times)

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Offline George Wallace

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Except, of course, that if you happen to believe in something akin to at least rough equality of representation then doesn't it make sense that the GTA, with a population (2011 census) of over 6 million, ought to "drive" Ontario that has a population of (same census) 12.8 million? Or is it that, since many, Many, Many Torontonians do not share your socio-political views, that you object to the fact that they are represented as their number warrant?

I am actually akin to the idea that the GTA should become its own "City State".  Given the size of Ontario, the realities that the population of the GTA face are not those of those faced by those outside the boundaries of the GTA.  Many of the current policies on Hydro, Energy, Environment, etc. being made in Queens Park have little affect on those inside the GTA, but are very damaging to those outside.  Increases to Carbon Taxes; Delivery Charges for Hydro to locations that have 'Zero Consumption'; potential ban on woodburning stoves, furnaces, BBQ pits, etc.; phasing out Natural Gas use; etc......All have little affect on apartment and Condo dwellers in the GTA.....But is a cash grab from those who do need these products.
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Offline Jed

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2016, 09:33:21 »
The GTA is one heck of an 'Enclave' that messes with the rest of Ontario and Canada.  [:D
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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2016, 10:44:03 »
I am actually akin to the idea that the GTA should become its own "City State".  Given the size of Ontario, the realities that the population of the GTA face are not those of those faced by those outside the boundaries of the GTA.  Many of the current policies on Hydro, Energy, Environment, etc. being made in Queens Park have little affect on those inside the GTA, but are very damaging to those outside.  Increases to Carbon Taxes; Delivery Charges for Hydro to locations that have 'Zero Consumption'; potential ban on woodburning stoves, furnaces, BBQ pits, etc.; phasing out Natural Gas use; etc......All have little affect on apartment and Condo dwellers in the GTA.....But is a cash grab from those who do need these products.

 :goodpost:

Likewise for Montreal and possibly Vancouver.  I am ambivalent about the other large cities - because in Canada an agglomeration of 250,000 is considered large.  But there is certainly merit in having cities become "provinces" when they reach a certain size.  They then get to manage their own taxes according to their own revenues and their own needs.  Their needs are considerably different than the needs of people outside their fortress walls.

But that would require them gaining access to the Senate and requiring reform of the Senate...... another reason to do it.
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2016, 11:45:22 »
I am actually akin to the idea that the GTA should become its own "City State".  Given the size of Ontario, the realities that the population of the GTA face are not those of those faced by those outside the boundaries of the GTA.  Many of the current policies . . .

But in your separation of major population centres from the "good folk living on the land" (apologies for the sarcasm) will the rural (smaller centres) population still want the city folk to kick in the share of provincial revenue that was previously to their benefit?

This is from a 2004 Fraser Institute study.  (Sorry, was unable to quickly find a more current study, however, I expect that the underlying conclusions are probably still valid.)

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/SharetheWealth.pdf
Quote
Share the Wealth:
Who Pays for Government Across Ontario?

Main Conclusions
• Greater Toronto Area (GTA) taxpayers pay out almost $24 billion more in taxes than they receive in government spending—a net tax burden equal to 11 percent of the GTA economy
• Most of this burden falls on the suburbs around Toronto, where the average household pays the equivalent of more than $17,000 in extra taxes
• Halton Region and York Region households—urban areas just west and north of Toronto—pay the most: up to $26,000 more in tax than in government services received. By comparison, Toronto households pay almost $9,500 in extra taxes.
• A minority of 9 Ontario counties are subsidizing the other 40. Twenty-one counties pay less tax than they receive in government services, with most found in the eastern and northern regions. Five counties effectively have most or all of their personal income taxes refunded in the form of an equivalent dollar value of services.
• The average Ontario household bears a net tax burden of over $4,500 to pay for transfers to other provinces through federal government taxation and spending programs
• The degree of regional net tax burden and its associated subsidy outflow rises with income—richer communities are generally subsidizing poorer communities
• Subsidy outflows also rise with population density, contrary to anti-development advocates’ beliefs, showing that suburbia is paying more than its proportional share of government costs
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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2016, 12:49:03 »
But in your separation of major population centres from the "good folk living on the land" (apologies for the sarcasm) will the rural (smaller centres) population still want the city folk to kick in the share of provincial revenue that was previously to their benefit?

From Reply #3,
• Greater Toronto Area (GTA) taxpayers pay out almost $24 billion more in taxes than they receive in government spending—a net tax burden equal to 11 percent of the GTA economy

I could see the GTA going its own way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Toronto_Area#/media/File:Greater_toronto_area_map.svg
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 13:27:46 by mariomike »
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2016, 13:07:25 »
I wonder what the balance of trade looks like between the cities and the hinterland?
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2016, 13:53:35 »
I wonder what the balance of trade looks like between the cities and the hinterland?

I don't know about that but the 'imbalance' of political leanings is profound:

The 'C' in Big City stands for 'Communist'

The 'C' in Countryside stands for 'Conservative'
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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2016, 13:54:26 »
As the regions around them set up toll booths to 're-collect" that revenue. Also what about Garbage, sewage and water? You best include these into the city state or the "outsiders" will have them be the short and curlies.

Offline MCG

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2016, 14:29:47 »
I am actually akin to the idea that the GTA should become its own "City State". 
Likewise for Montreal and possibly Vancouver.
What about Ottawa inclusive of Gatineau? 

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2016, 15:23:17 »
As the regions around them set up toll booths to 're-collect" that revenue. Also what about Garbage, sewage and water? You best include these into the city state or the "outsiders" will have them be the short and curlies.

So what?  Toronto (that was the example originally used) already pays for disposal of its garbage - the land on which the dumps are located are either owned by the city (regardless of the jurisdiction in which it sits) or they have a business arrangement with the dump/waste site owner.  Business is still business.  As for water and sewage - Toronto gets its water from Lake Ontario and after treating its sewage pumps it back into the same.  All its treatment plants (both incoming and outgoing) are own by and located in the GTA.   How many of the "outsiders" piggyback off Toronto's infrastructure?  Maybe the short and curlies are on the other crotch.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2016, 15:36:12 »
So what?  Toronto (that was the example originally used) already pays for disposal of its garbage - the land on which the dumps are located are either owned by the city (regardless of the jurisdiction in which it sits) or they have a business arrangement with the dump/waste site owner. 

The majority of Toronto garbage is trucked to Michigan. 

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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2016, 15:47:58 »
Quote
In Ontario, there are 423 sewage treatment plants. The provincial Crown operates 244 STPs and municipalities operate 179 STPs. The Ontario Clean Water Agency, a provincial Crown corporation created in 1993, operates 160 of the provincial STPs, while the Ministry of Environment and Energy (MOEE) operates the remainder. In general, the larger STPs, for example, the Main Treatment Plant in Toronto, are operated by a municipality and the smaller STPs, such as that in Orangeville, are operated by the province. Table 1 contains a breakdown of Ontario STPs by both treatment type and operating authority.

Table 1: Sewage Treatment Plants Operated by the Province or Municipalities (1991)17

Treatment Type   # Operated by Province   # Operated by Municipalities   Total
Primary   10   18   28
Secondary   102   83   185
Tertiary   18   18   36
Lagoons   112   57   169
Septic Systems   2   3   5
Total   244 (58%)   179 (42%)   423

https://environment.probeinternational.org/1995/09/18/ontarios-sewage-treatment-plants-and-their-effect-environment/

Quote
More than 750 water and wastewater treatment facilities operate in Ontario, ranging from small municipality-owned water treatment facilities serving rural communities, to massive water and wastewater treatment plants serving highly populated urban areas. Ontario's largest wastewater treatment plants process thousands of megalitres per day, using today's most sophisticated and advanced treatment technologies. - See more at: http://www.watertapontario.com/ontario-water/story/utilities#sthash.Lac6rfTa.dpuf

http://www.watertapontario.com/ontario-water/story/utilities

The neat thing about small agglomerations is that they provide a smaller footprints.  Their needs are reduced. Their impact is reduced.  Ultimately individuals can live off of septic tanks and wells.  Apartment dwellings and offices don't have that luxury.

Smaller communities, located on running water - rivers, can take their water from upstream and ship their waste downstream (with treatment if they are neighbourly - without if not).

Toronto, being Toronto and located on its own Lake - shared with Hamilton and Rochester - drinks its and their bathwater.

The St Lawrence Basin is not Ontario.  Most of the Shield has access to lots of clean water and to land to manage waste.

And by the way yesterday's incinerator is tomorrow's biofuel heat and power plant.
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2016, 15:51:03 »
What about Ottawa inclusive of Gatineau?

Possibly, and there are other good reasons to create a Canadian Capital Territory, just like Canberra or Washington.
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Offline Bird_Gunner45

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2016, 15:58:40 »
I don't know about that but the 'imbalance' of political leanings is profound:

The 'C' in Big City stands for 'Communist'

The 'C' in Countryside stands for 'Conservative'

The divide between rural and urban settlers is historical the trend and most theorists believe it is due to the relative way in which both groups live. The theory (boiled down) goes like this:

Urban- Since most large cities involve persons living in tight quarters, with minimal ability to be independent of one another (Grow their own food, etc) people naturally rely on each other more. This fosters more of a "collectivist" attitude as space, resources, etc need to be shared so that all dwellers can survive. Independent attitudes are less since less people can be independent. Even something like a park is a good example. While I could play on 100+ acres, bike 3-5 km to visit friends, etc growing up in rural Ontario my cousins in London, Ontario had to play in either their very small backyard or the local parks. Reliance on the local parks meant more requirement to share resources (slides, etc). Finally, due to the quarters people live in and the greater diversity of cities, urban citizens tend to be more immersed in other cultures. Whereas 99% of my school in the country was white Christians (of which 70% were Germans) my cousins school had all ethnicities and many cultures. Familiarity and more acceptance results.

Rural - Rural people tend to be more conservative and independent. Farm and farm area dwellers tend to have more space, be more self employed, and less reliant on others for survival (though certainly cooperation amongst country folk exists, it's not to the same degree). They also tend to live in more heterogeneous communities, so are less apt to be immersed in other cultures.

There are thousands and thousands of words that can (and have been) written on similar theories as to why there is a big divide between rural and urban beliefs. And certainly this isn't to say that ALL city people are liberal and all country folks are conservatives, or that any of these examples are absolutes. These are definite generalities.

Growing up in Grey County, Ontario and living in Halifax, NS, Montreal, Fredericton, and now Shilo I've seen these trends first hand and think there's validity. Going to Toronto as a kid/teenager, I can remember talking to people there (during a summer working at Canada's Wonderland) and seeing how night and day our childhoods/high school experiences were. Political ideology would logically be different since it's based on our individual life experiences and how we view the world.

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2016, 15:59:47 »
So what?  Toronto (that was the example originally used) already pays for disposal of its garbage - the land on which the dumps are located are either owned by the city (regardless of the jurisdiction in which it sits) or they have a business arrangement with the dump/waste site owner.  Business is still business.  As for water and sewage - Toronto gets its water from Lake Ontario and after treating its sewage pumps it back into the same.  All its treatment plants (both incoming and outgoing) are own by and located in the GTA.   How many of the "outsiders" piggyback off Toronto's infrastructure?  Maybe the short and curlies are on the other crotch.

The city of Vancouver is struggling to deal with its (and the Port's) waste. Basically what happens if those communities around the GTA decide they don't want the landfill in their backyards. Shipping garbage and special waste can be a major issue. Vancouver sewage waste disposal is not even within it's jurisdiction. Any formal cleaving into a special entity should take into account these issues. But infastructure (other than transportation) is very unsexy.   

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2016, 16:02:42 »
BG45

I agree with your general thesis.  I would only add that there is a constant reinforcing of ideologies as individuals self-select their environment.  Loners move to the country for the peace and quiet.  Social types move to the city for the bright lights and action.
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Offline Bird_Gunner45

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2016, 16:09:23 »
BG45

I agree with your general thesis.  I would only add that there is a constant reinforcing of ideologies as individuals self-select their environment.  Loners move to the country for the peace and quiet.  Social types move to the city for the bright lights and action.

100%... these are generalities. Certainly I knew hard core "hippies" in the country and hard core conservatives in the city. It's just that they tended to be the minority in those areas.

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2016, 16:14:03 »
The majority of Toronto garbage is trucked to Michigan.

Dec 30, 2010

Toronto garbage no longer shipped to Michigan
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-garbage-no-longer-shipped-to-michigan-1.913880

If the GTA were to go its own way, it could lead to a return of the Residency Requirement. It was in effect when I hired on with Metro.
ie: To apply for a job with Metro, you had to have lived in Metro for at least the previous five years. They wanted to know what Borough you had grown up in, what school you went to, etc...
ie: You had to be a long-term resident of Toronto, Etobicoke, North York, Scarborough, York or East York.

They have been talking about re-instating it for years.
 
I wonder if people have any idea how many out-of-town applicants our Emergency Services have.   

There are probably 10,000 full-time police officers, firefighters and paramedics on the City payroll.

Add to that the civilian Agencies, Boards, Commissions, Departments, Services etc... and that's a lot of jobs that could become off-limits to out of town applicants if a GTA Residency Requirement were put back into effect.

From the President of the TPFFA,

 "I have been fortunate that I have been able to orientate several of our recruit classes and it was refreshing to see such a young class this time. The class was mainly Fire College Graduates and it also had members with past fire service experience. I had the chance to speak to some and I found it interesting that those fire fighters with many years experience with a full-time fire department elsewhere were willing to leave to pursue there “dreams” as they put it and work for Toronto Fire. It made me feel a little bit special that I have been a part of an organization that others envy and want to be a part of as well."
http://www.torontofirefighters.org/OSS/images/firewatch/spring2009.pdf
page 8

Personally, I would be happy to retire to a little cabin up North in the woods. I saw this City at its worst for too many years.

But, my wife would never come with me, except for vacations. She still thinks it's maahvelous!  :)

« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 12:33:03 by mariomike »
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2016, 17:02:39 »
The majority of Toronto garbage is trucked to Michigan.

Even better.
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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2016, 17:04:06 »
Possibly, and there are other good reasons to create a Canadian Capital Territory, just like Canberra or Washington.
Isn't there already a National Capital Region w/Ottawa & Gatineau?  Or are you talking more "separate" like "D".C.?
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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2016, 17:04:56 »
I believe it goes here now,

"Starting Jan. 1, 2011, Toronto's garbage will be disposed of at the city-owned Green Lane landfill, near London, Ont."

It is owned by the City of Toronto.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Lane_landfill
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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2016, 17:23:21 »
Isn't there already a National Capital Region w/Ottawa & Gatineau?  Or are you talking more "separate" like "D".C.?
More "separate" is the theme of this thread.

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2016, 19:57:17 »
Isn't there already a National Capital Region w/Ottawa & Gatineau?  Or are you talking more "separate" like "D".C.?

I am talking about something more like D.C.  Something that is separate from both Ontario and Quebec. Autonomous.
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2016, 20:01:39 »
I am talking about something more like D.C.  Something that is separate from both Ontario and Quebec. Autonomous.

DC is the poster child for poor governance.  As an Ottawa resident, we already suffer at the hands of the incompetent real estate mavens of the NCC, who demolished an entire downtown neighbourhood and left it fallow for 60 years (among other things).  Putting the whole of the city under such a "government" would be an unmitigated disaster - much like DC.
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Re: City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2016, 20:05:41 »
One might wonder that if a city is beyond the abilities of the locals, on what grounds they purport to manage a country.
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