Author Topic: "Merit" or "Quota"? Which must we have?  (Read 4399 times)

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Offline George Wallace

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"Merit" or "Quota"? Which must we have?
« on: September 17, 2016, 16:37:15 »
We have seen hiring quota's becoming the norm in the past three decades.  We are now seeing it in our Government appointments.  Are we destroying our nation and society by filling quotas and not going on merit based selection?  Do we want the best qualified person for the job, or someone who meets the 'visuals' necessary to appease some portion of society?  Could some of the problems we face today not hark back to the filling of quotas?

This is one, that I think is going too far:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

Quote
Pressure to name first indigenous Supreme Court judge could see Trudeau shaking up rules
Ian MacLeod, Ottawa Citizen and Jason Fekete, Ottawa Citizen | September 16, 2016 8:47 PM ET

OTTAWA — Pressure is mounting on Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to appoint the first indigenous jurist to the Supreme Court of Canada, even if it means retreating on the Liberal government’s commitment to appoint only functionally bilingual justices and discarding Atlantic Canada’s traditional seat on the high court.

Sources in the legal community say three women considered as potentially strong candidates include Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond, Jean Teillet and possibly Naiomi Metallic. Newly appointed Sen. Murray Sinclair, a former Manitoba judge and the chair of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada, is also regularly mentioned as a strong choice.

An independent advisory board must submit a short list of three to five functionally bilingual candidates to Trudeau no later than Sept. 23. The board is part of a new selection process that introduced a nationwide call to qualified lawyers and judges to apply to replace Justice Thomas Cromwell, who held the court’s Atlantic Canada seat until his retirement this month.

Lorne Sossin, dean of Osgoode Hall Law School, said while he would support a nominee from Atlantic Canada or a functionally bilingual finalist, “it’s past time for an indigenous member of the court to be appointed. I’m confident that there are potential nominees who are either being identified or have identified themselves, that are before that committee, and I’m sure getting serious consideration as this process unfolds.”

If you have this panel of nine white judges staring at you, and you are having all of your rights adjudicated by those persons, how legitimate is that institution in your eyes?

The board has been instructed to support the government’s push for institutional appointments that better reflect the country’s social diversity. Indigenous peoples top the list of minority groups cited in its terms of reference and several aboriginal lawyers and judges are believed to have applied.

Turpel-Lafond is British Columbia’s Representative for Children and Youth and formerly practised law in Nova Scotia and was a law professor at Dalhousie University before being appointed the first aboriginal woman to serve on the Saskatchewan provincial court bench.

Teillet specializes in indigenous rights law with Pape Salter Teillet LLP, is past vice-president and treasurer of the Indigenous Bar Association and founding president of the Métis Nation Lawyers Association. She has extensive experience on Supreme Court cases. She is the great grand niece of Louis Riel.

Metallic is the first Mi’kmaq person to serve as a Supreme Court law clerk, specializes in aboriginal law, and human and constitutional rights. Fluent in French and English, she also is a professor at Dalhousie University’s Schulich School of Law.

Nader Hasan, lawyer with Stockwoods LLP in Toronto and an adjunct professor at the University of Toronto’s faculty of law, said the fact there has never been an indigenous judge on the Supreme Court — given our country’s history — “is a scandalous state of affairs.”

“The prime minister has to give priority to appointing an indigenous candidate,” Hasan said.

Regional diversity on the nation’s highest court is important, he said, but it’s time to abandon the regional quota system because it risks crowding out other important measures of diversity.

“It’s important for the legitimacy of the judiciary to have a court that reflects the diversity of the nation,” he said, noting the lack of an aboriginal judge on the top court “stands in the way of true reconciliation between First Nations and post-colonial Canada.”

Trudeau has pledged an ambitious agenda of reforms to improve the lives of Canada’s indigenous people.

He is not legally bound to appoint a short-listed candidate, nor does he have to abide by the convention that reserves one of court’s nine seats for a jurist from Atlantic Canada or that the person be functionally bilingual.

But as it stands, those constraints, especially on language, may be working at cross-purposes to the objective of generating the richest possible pool of candidates, say some legal observers.

“If you were to go for another Tom Cromwell again, I think it would ring a bit hollow for this government given its commitment to move away from what was seen as an overwhelmingly white and male set of appointments from the Conservatives,” Sossin said.

Robert-Falcon Ouellette, an aboriginal Liberal member of Parliament, hopes his government appoints an aboriginal and believes it is overdue.

“Its time has come. I’m sure it also would offer a greater level of expertise to the court,” said Ouellette, a Winnipeg MP. “I’m surprised we haven’t had one in this country.”

It’s important for the legitimacy of the judiciary to have a court that reflects the diversity of the nation

Lorne Neudorf, professor of law at Thompson Rivers University in Kamloops, B.C., suggests Trudeau may have painted himself into a corner.

“What you have is this great process, enhanced transparency, predictability that we’re going to get the best people, (but Trudeau) has perhaps imposed on himself criteria that may end up becoming a bit problematic in terms of winnowing down that pool where you find it difficult to please everyone or get the right appointment.”

Trudeau was asked Thursday about the looming appointment and whether the official languages policy is hurting the government’s ability to appoint more racial minorities and women to the bench.

He didn’t respond directly, but noted the government wants more diversity on the bench at different levels and in the top court.

“It’s not something we can suddenly do overnight. There is an awful lot of work to do in the lower courts, to be able to get the diversity up, to be able to get more women to the bench,” he said during an armchair discussion at the Global Progress Summit in Montreal.

“What we’re going to do with this new Supreme Court process is choose the absolute best possible Supreme Court justice to serve Canadians, and keep in mind that we want to make sure that we are representing as many Canadians with that court as we possibly can.”





More on LINK

To me, it doesn't matter what gender, race, ethnic background, etc. the person is; only that they qualify for the job on merit, NOT on a quota system.  Don't fill the position with an aboriginal, just to have an aboriginal.  Fill it with the person who merits the job, be they an aboriginal or not. 

In this case, we are talking about the HIGHEST Court in the land.  NOT a place that one wants less than qualified persons sitting.

We have already seen disastrous results in filling the Cabinet using a quota system.....This is even more of a worse case scenario.
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Offline Hound Dog

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Re: "Merit" or "Quota"? Which must we have?
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2016, 19:58:08 »
There are Aboriginal judges who could be considered for appointment to the SCC on merit (i.e., Justice Murray Sinclair before he was appointed to the Senate). Unfortunately, even if such a candidate is appointed now, there will always be a little asterisk next to their name and those who wonder if they really deserved to be there.

Offline Old Sweat

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Re: "Merit" or "Quota"? Which must we have?
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2016, 20:10:58 »
There are Aboriginal judges who could be considered for appointment to the SCC on merit (i.e., Justice Murray Sinclair before he was appointed to the Senate). Unfortunately, even if such a candidate is appointed now, there will always be a little asterisk next to their name and those who wonder if they really deserved to be there.

Back in the early seventies the CAF received orders to make the various ranks balance the national representation figures for Anglophones and Francophones. The powers at be also directed there would be no anglophone promotions until the desired balance was achieved. General Dextraze appealed and the number of Anglo promotions was capped at 50%.

So much for the merit system and listening to senior officers blowing smoke out of their butts to justify it. No matter how good the Franco, and there were many suburb individuals, the perception was that every one promoted was picked from the depths of the merit lists. On a personal basis it cost me two years for promotion to major, but I never held it against the individuals, just the system.

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Re: "Merit" or "Quota"? Which must we have?
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2016, 21:20:51 »
We have seen hiring quota's becoming the norm in the past three decades.

Exactly 30 years.  Employment Equity Act ( EEA ) of 1986.

For anyone interested,

Canadian Forces Employment Equity Regulations
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2002-421/

Employment Equity Act - Regulations Amending the Canadian Forces Employment Equity Regulations
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards/regulations-amending-canadian-forces.page

« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 22:52:44 by mariomike »
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Offline Ostrozac

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Re: "Merit" or "Quota"? Which must we have?
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2016, 04:31:08 »
The Government of Canada has never had a pure merit system -- ever. People have gotten jobs above their merit based on any number of criteria: balancing Lower Canada vs Upper Canada, Rural vs Urban, East vs West, favoritism for certain social clubs, favoritism for people that went to the "right schools", a bias for people who have the right accent, people with family connections, people who played hockey, golf or were drinking buddies with the right patron.

However, the current state of the Supreme Court seems to be a bit of a perfect storm. Expectations have been set that the next judge will be bilingual, from Atlantic Canada, be aboriginal, and be a highly competent jurist. Promises have been made, and somebody will be disappointed.

 

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: "Merit" or "Quota"? Which must we have?
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2016, 09:01:01 »
So obviously: We are all in agreement in principle on promoting only the best candidate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhZRDoGZg00

I am more with Ostrozac on that one: we have never had a pure merit system.

In the case of  Court appointments, I'll go even further: In Canada, we have never had a system that appoints "the best or most qualified person" to the job. In my experience (and I went through the process a few times personally, while at the same time I am in a position to see the results) the current system produces short lists of candidates for appointment who are the ones that were the best at legal research and writing law memoranda, rarely those that have demonstrated a capacity for the exercise of good judgement and almost never those who have an understanding of the world that includes some scientific background*. That's because it is easy for the selection committees to come up with questions that elude and measure knowledge, but far harder to do the same for good judgement. If the system was set up for promotion in the military, its equivalent would be promotions of those with total trade knowledge with no consideration for leadership.

*You don't believe me! I have had, in my career as a lawyer, to constantly explain, in great details and sometimes over and over, basic concepts such as "rule-of-three" calculations, application of percentages to actual figures to derive values. Basic concepts such as "no, judge' at 45 degrees of latitude north, the sun never goes on the North side of the street to cause shadow on the South side"; or "the three sides of a triangle are immutable, which is why it is a strong shape for construction, while four sided structures can be collapsed easily, judge". Etc. It is an unfortunate fact of life that a very large proportion of law students go into law because they are excellent at literature and arts, but incompetent in even basic maths.

 

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Re: "Merit" or "Quota"? Which must we have?
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2016, 09:13:55 »
There was a Legacy Preference where I used to work. Candidates received points on their civil service examinations.

There was a Residency Requirement. ie: You had to be a long-term resident of Metro. ( The City, or one of the five Boroughs. )

The '46ers, as we called them, received a Veteran's Preference.



« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 09:53:13 by mariomike »
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: "Merit" or "Quota"? Which must we have?
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2016, 16:31:14 »
There are Aboriginal judges who could be considered for appointment to the SCC on merit (i.e., Justice Murray Sinclair before he was appointed to the Senate). Unfortunately, even if such a candidate is appointed now, there will always be a little asterisk next to their name and those who wonder if they really deserved to be there.


First, see Old Sweat's comments just below yours ... he an I served together and shared the same "fate" due to our mother tongue and we had pretty much the same reaction to it.

But, almost everyone who is ever appointed to or promoted into a job as the "fist" of his or her group always has "a little asterisk" next to his or her name until, as in the case of, say, General Dextraze, we come to think of it as normal. It wasn't "shocking" that Jacques Dextraze was one of (several) 25-30 year old Canadian battalion commanders in World War II (they were "standing on the shoulders) of officers 20 years their senior, (Robert Moncel (The RCR and RCAC) was a brigadier at age 27), nor that, 27 years later, he became the (second Francophone) CDS.
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Re: "Merit" or "Quota"? Which must we have?
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2016, 18:43:26 »
So obviously: We are all in agreement in principle on promoting only the best candidate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhZRDoGZg00

I am more with Ostrozac on that one: we have never had a pure merit system.

In the case of  Court appointments, I'll go even further: In Canada, we have never had a system that appoints "the best or most qualified person" to the job. In my experience (and I went through the process a few times personally, while at the same time I am in a position to see the results) the current system produces short lists of candidates for appointment who are the ones that were the best at legal research and writing law memoranda, rarely those that have demonstrated a capacity for the exercise of good judgement and almost never those who have an understanding of the world that includes some scientific background*. That's because it is easy for the selection committees to come up with questions that elude and measure knowledge, but far harder to do the same for good judgement. If the system was set up for promotion in the military, its equivalent would be promotions of those with total trade knowledge with no consideration for leadership.

*You don't believe me! I have had, in my career as a lawyer, to constantly explain, in great details and sometimes over and over, basic concepts such as "rule-of-three" calculations, application of percentages to actual figures to derive values. Basic concepts such as "no, judge' at 45 degrees of latitude north, the sun never goes on the North side of the street to cause shadow on the South side"; or "the three sides of a triangle are immutable, which is why it is a strong shape for construction, while four sided structures can be collapsed easily, judge". Etc. It is an unfortunate fact of life that a very large proportion of law students go into law because they are excellent at literature and arts, but incompetent in even basic maths.

Just to put another fly in the ointment - there is another problem.

When putting together a team it is important that the team works well with each other - that a new member fits in.

What happens when the most meritorious candidate is an anti-social beggar with a chip on their shoulder?
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Re: "Merit" or "Quota"? Which must we have?
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2016, 21:11:35 »
We must have merit  quota.

Chicago, but the first paragraph could just as easily be Toronto.

09/19/2016

Court rules Fire Dept. paramedic test discriminates vs. women
http://chicago.suntimes.com/politics/court-rules-fire-dept-paramedic-test-discriminates-vs-women/
A federal appeals court on Monday ruled in favor of female paramedics in striking down a physical performance test used by the city to hire paramedics for over a decade.
Between 2000 and 2009, nearly 1100 applicants, including 800 men and 300 women, took the test. Of those, 98 percent of the male applicants passed. The passing rate for female applicants was 60 percent.

The City of Chicago was also ordered to hire 111 African-American firefighters.

When did you feel safer, Taxpayers, then or now?




« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 21:33:37 by mariomike »
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Offline ueo

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Re: "Merit" or "Quota"? Which must we have?
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2016, 14:09:13 »
I think we have always had a quota system and as a rule got the right peg mostly in the right hole. Although I remember for several years the "Boards" having to go well down the promotable list to find a promotable franco infantry officer. Nothing against linguistic diversity but to bypass a number of qualified and merited officers based on one small but high profile(in the day) requirement doesn't really support the merit concept. I suspect that in todays military its even worse given the plethora of small but high profile requirements. Any comments from serving or recent members?
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Re: "Merit" or "Quota"? Which must we have?
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2016, 14:35:48 »
Any comments from serving or recent members?

Sounds like a great idea.

See also,

Diversity in Recruitment
http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,315.300.html
13 pages.

Without "Merit" where will we land up ?
http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,89922.0/nowap.html

Is the CAF as diversified as canada is?
http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,37.0/nowap.html
4 pages.

Haven't We Done The "Target" Recruiting Before?
http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,73674.0/nowap.html
2 pages.

No Discrimination Found in Complaint Regarding Recruitment Denial 
http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,91926.0/nowap.html
2 pages.

How many black officer's in ppcli?
https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,18493.0/nowap.html

discrimination
http://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=50324.0

Discrimination against homosexuals, races, etc.
http://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=34173.0
3 pages.

My Story Of Racism-
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=73257.0
2 pages.

Also, the 26-page,
The Merged Thread on Gay/ Homosexual Topics and the CF

20-page,
Women in the CF: General (not cbt arms)

44-page,
Women in the Combat Arms/Infantry/SF/Combat

etc...
« Last Edit: October 10, 2016, 14:54:52 by mariomike »
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: "Merit" or "Quota"? Which must we have?
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2016, 23:59:59 »
Quote
If you have this panel of nine appointed by quota judges staring at you, and you are having all of your rights adjudicated by those persons, how legitimate is that institution in your eyes?

And that is the ultimate source of failure of the quota system. No one will ever believe that a quota hire is truly legitimate, and when the stakes are as high as the Supreme Court, then any questions about legitimacy undermine the very idea of the Rule of Law; one of the fundamental pillars of a truly liberal society.

And the destruction of that threatens the foundations of a liberal society that has been 800+ years in the making.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.