Author Topic: Class-A Pay Under 6 Hours  (Read 1483 times)

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Offline Lumber

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Class-A Pay Under 6 Hours
« on: March 02, 2017, 17:30:58 »
CBIs have been read, now looking for clarification.

If you work less than 6 hours during a calendar day, you get 50% of you full days rate. But here are some examples I need clarified.

1. If you were on a training exercise and flew back to your home unit, and arrived home after midnight, would you be entitled to a half days pay? Member flies out Saturday morning, and flies home Sunday night, arriving at 0200 Monday. Is that 2.5 days pay? What if they arrive at 0010

2. If you were tasked to work from 2200-0200, would that be two separate half days of pay, since those are two separate calendar days, even though you worked less than 6 hours total?

3. If you worked form 1730-0200, is that a full day's pay followed by a half days pay?

Cheers

Edit: I realize the CBI states: "For the purpose of paragraph (2) of this instruction, cumulative periods of duty or training considered in the determination of rates of pay in sub-paragraphs (a) and (b) may be accumulated within a period extending beyond a calendar day as described in orders or instructions issued by the Director General Compensation and Benefits on behalf of the Chief of the Defence Staff." However, I have not seen any such "orders or instructions" which dictate when this would or would not apply.

Edit 2: added numbers next to examples.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 18:02:13 by Lumber »
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Re: Class-A Pay Under 6 Hours
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2017, 17:51:02 »
I think conventional practice is as follows:

Example 1 - 1/2 day pay for the last day (presumably the last full day began at midnight, so you've passed 24 hours and entered a new day. Typically, the 1st period of training ends at midnight, in this scenario. Anything after that is a reckoned in succeeding days and 1/2 days.)

Example 2 - 1/2 day pay (paid for a period, not calendar day)

Example 3 - 1 full day pay similar to example 2. That being said, an argument can be made to pay 1 and 1/2 days pay, but that would require two pay sheets, and the CO's concurrence.

« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 17:56:17 by ModlrMike »
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Class-A Pay Under 6 Hours
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2017, 18:05:47 »
I think conventional practice is as follows:

Example 3 - 1 full day pay similar to example 2. That being said, an argument can be made to pay 1 and 1/2 days pay, but that would require two pay sheets, and the CO's concurrence.

I tend to agree here, but the problem is, where's the line? If he worked till 0500, I'd say definitely he's earned a second half day, and if he only worked to 0005, then I'd say he definitely didn't  want deserve a second half day. Where's the line?

Edit: because I substituted the word "deserve" with "want" for some ungodly reason while typing on the toilet...
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 19:45:11 by Lumber »
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Class-A Pay Under 6 Hours
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2017, 18:55:12 »
My info is a little dated, Lumber, but in my days as X.O., we were encouraged to think as follows when determining what compensation is fair to give to a reservist:

The starting point was "if 6 hours is a half-day, then a full day is 12 hours", with the two following caveats: If you are dealing with a single session and that session falls completely within a single calendar day, then it's one full day if over 6, no matter how long; and, every duration over 24 hours starts the counter agin, no matter what.

So in your examples: (1) would be 2.5 days, even for the extra 10 minutes only scenario (and if you tried cheating on the "time of arrival" you would be setting yourself up for a bad surprise); (2) would be a half day; and (3) would be a single day.

But modify your last example just a bit: Let's say the training session for that day runs from 11:30 to 02:00 the next day: in the first day, you are over 12 hours of work but overall, still under 24 hours. The fair treatment under my stated starting point (a day is 12 hours) is to provide a day and a half's pay.

We've never had any pay rejected when we presented the logic of the command team that way to justify pay sheets to auditors.
 

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Class
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2017, 19:25:16 »
I tend to agree here, but the problem is, where's the line? If he worked till 0500, I'd say definitely he's earned a second half day, and if he only worked to 0005, then I'd say he definitely didn't want a second half day. Where's the line?

It is not what the member wants or what his chain of command wants, it is what the rules say.  Now, my experience is very dated, but, when I was the CO of a reserve unit, "days" were calculated by the calendar and the period of time in each day calculated by the second (okay, by the minute).  If a member legitimately runs even one second past that 6 hour limit or into the next day then he gets paid for it.  It is relatively easy to schedule group activities with start/stop timings that take into account the limitations on pay.  It is also relatively easy to account for (and calculate) travel time when an individual is returning from an activity outside the unit's locale.  Travel time does not stop when, for example, an aircraft arrives at a member's city of residence; it continues until he gets to his actual residence or another predetermined location where his period of duty ceases.
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Class-A Pay Under 6 Hours
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2017, 19:49:30 »
If a member legitimately runs even one second past that 6 hour limit or into the next day then he gets paid for it. 

My info is a little dated, Lumber, but in my days as X.O., we were encouraged to think as follows when determining what compensation is fair to give to a reservist:

The starting point was "if 6 hours is a half-day, then a full day is 12 hours", with the two following caveats: If you are dealing with a single session and that session falls completely within a single calendar day, then it's one full day if over 6, no matter how long; and, every duration over 24 hours starts the counter agin, no matter what.

Example 4: Member is on duty watch. He reports at 1830, and departed the unit after the bars are secured at 0020. He's worked a total of 5hrs and 50 mins over two calendar days.

So, on one side we have the "hard and fast" rule, and the member signs two separate pay sheets, one half-day for each calendar he worked.

On the other side, we have the "situation dependent" rule, where the member performed a single period of duty cumulating less than 6 hrs of duty, and therefore get's one half day's pay.

I like the idea of the hard and fast rule, because it makes things simple, but I agree in principle with the "situation dependent" rule...

Any other thoughts?
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Offline recceguy

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Re: Class-A Pay Under 6 Hours
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2017, 19:56:44 »
IIRC, it's based on hours. Under six and over six. If we came in for a wknd ex, the pay sheets were produced as so: Fri - 18:00 until 23:59, Sat - 00:01 until 23:59, Sun - 00:01 until 17:00 (so they wouldn't have to pay supper). So, if a person starts duty at 22:00 on Sat and gets home at 02:00 Sunday, that's 2 x days at < 6 = 2 x .5 days or 1 full days pay. Don't know if that helps. I used to put he pay sheets out and had them returned to me. As the TQ, I would've authorised a full day for something like that.
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Offline runormal

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Re: Class-A Pay Under 6 Hours
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2017, 20:07:50 »
As a CLS A army solider. I've always assumed that once it i hits 0001 I will get a new half/full day depending on how many hours I work after the fact.

Typically where we work it is either a 1900-2200 (parade night) or a 1900-2359 (friday), 0001-2359 (Saturday), 0001-17000 (Sunday). So most of your situations wouldn't apply to me

We also may do 0800-1600 on sat/sun for unit level training.

One time i had a situation when I was told to show up at 2330 (we were supporting another brigade) and I got the half day for it.


In my personal opinion, I've always felt that CLS A pay just "balances itself out". It isn't fair/right that you get a half days pay for 30 minutes of work to sign a form or to get an id card. But it also isn't fair/right that if you work 23 hours and 59 minutes that you get the same amount if you work only 6 hours. I think that if we assume each calendar day is a separate day that it works.

Based on your scenarios I would expect:

1. 2.5 days
2. 2 1/2 days
3. 1.5 days
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 20:55:37 by runormal »

Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Class-A Pay Under 6 Hours
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2017, 21:04:11 »
IIRC, it's based on hours. Under six and over six. If we came in for a wknd ex, the pay sheets were produced as so: Fri - 18:00 until 23:59, Sat - 00:01 until 23:59, Sun - 00:01 until 17:00 (so they wouldn't have to pay supper). So, if a person starts duty at 22:00 on Sat and gets home at 02:00 Sunday, that's 2 x days at < 6 = 2 x .5 days or 1 full days pay. Don't know if that helps. I used to put he pay sheets out and had them returned to me. As the TQ, I would've authorised a full day for something like that.

Pretty much the same way it was described to me:

Anything under six hours is a half day.

6-24 hours is a full day.
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Offline CountDC

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Re: Class-A Pay Under 6 Hours
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2017, 12:56:37 »
The CBI's spells it out clearly that it is based on calendar day:

a. for a period, or authorized cumulative periods, of duty or training of less than 6 hours in a calendar day, 50% of the member's rate of pay shall be used; and
b. for a period, or authorized cumulative periods, of duty or training of not less than 6 hours in a calendar day, the member's rate of pay shall be used

the note does not apply to my knowledge as I am not aware of any order or instruction that has been issued under this.

"It isn't fair/right that you get a half days pay for 30 minutes of work to sign a form or to get an id card"

This is called pers admin and I don't issue pay sheets for it. I have seen people pick up/drop off claims, route letters, pay sheets, show up to the OR about their pay, etc and expect to sign in for it. I reject them all.   have a simple solution for them too when they try kicking up a stink - show up on parade night and do it.  By the way - to pay a mbr for this would require prior approval of someone with an applicable DOA:

MPAI 2-1

a.   All training shall be authorized prior to the date which the training takes place.  For Unit Training Nights, the pre-authorization is the unit’s business plan.  For activity that is not captured within the unit’s business plan, authorization for the activity must be attached to the Res F Basic Attendance Registers as a supporting document;
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Offline ModlrMike

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Re: Class-A Pay Under 6 Hours
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2017, 14:59:53 »
In the end it comes down to what the CO wants to do.

The act of authorizing pay has the same effect as entering into a contract. This is the view my CO has taken. As such, we don't get paid for "pers admin", save for our periodic health exams. Everything else you do on an authorized parade or admin night.
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Class-A Pay Under 6 Hours
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2017, 15:31:00 »
Which is, frankly, part of the problem with our institutional view of the Reserve Force.  If work is needed to ensure readiness- and pers admin fits that bill - then it should be compensated.

That's not a blank cheque.  Pers admin should be, as much as is possible, conducted within the normal paid timeframes (trg or admin nights).  but that's not always possible.  What if clothing stores is only open during the day?  What if the ID section won't work weekends?  If someone is required to get a valid ID and can only do it during hours that the unit does not parade, then yes, that should be paid - it's a military duty being imposed upon them.  (And should be authorized in advance, barring an exceptional situation.  I know some units have standing authority in place for certain types of admin, such as ID cards or clothing stores runs).

It's lazy leadership to say "It's your problem, do it on your own time."  (Of course, if Bloggins needs to make a clothing run every week, then there are other issues at play other than pay.)

There are larger issues as well - we now expect senior Reserve leaders to be responsive to emails, make calls/emails to subordinates, and respond outside of the parade/admin night nexus.  How do we, how should we compensate them for those additional time demands?
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Offline CountDC

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Re: Class-A Pay Under 6 Hours
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2017, 10:19:55 »
Correct - if it is something that can not be covered on a parade night due to military scheduling such as ID cards then it should be paid with the prior approval in place.  if there are enough mbrs the unit may be able to schedule ID to come to their location on a parade night. 

For the leaders doing work outside parade hours it is easy but of course we all know that means it will be complicated.  If they are expected to do it then they should be paid for it.   
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Offline FormerHorseGuard

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Re: Class-A Pay Under 6 Hours
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2017, 07:57:21 »
As a former pay clerk back when it was still a trade.

First off no one got paid for any extra time unless the CO signed off or gave pre approval for extra time out of training weekends or nights.
Easiest way to deal with this is sign a pay sheet with the extended hours, submit it with a memo explaining the reasoning behind it and see if approved.

Way i did sign in sheets

Parade nights

1900 start time
2230 end time
Covered even half hour after final parade to get the last bit of admin done
Was a half day pay

Training weekend
1900 to 2359
0001 to 2359
0001 to 1800
We never paid the supper but provided box meals if required
That worked out to 2.5 days of pay
Drivers who drove people home ( country unit not a city unit) usually had a deal in place with CO for training nights extra half or days pay a month to cover  and to make sure they were covered in case of accident

Extra days had to be pre authorized. Seen some CO even void time sheets after the fact because he was not aware of the reasoning or thought it was a BS excuse. This was at a higher HQ , thought some officers were abusing the system.
Submit a request for your extra time, you might get approved

But if you are on dnd property travelling, in aircraft or authorized aircraft or transport to and from training exercise, you should be getting paid as normal so you are covered incase of accident. Good excuse to put on your memo to explain extra pay sheet .no pay sheet no coverage or benefits in case of accident.

Offline runormal

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Re: Class-A Pay Under 6 Hours
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2017, 08:49:43 »
For the leaders doing work outside parade hours it is easy but of course we all know that means it will be complicated.  If they are expected to do it then they should be paid for it.

Just to open the can of worms. How do we propose to "compensate" members. Do we tally up every minute we spend drafting correspondence, forwarding and responding to emails.  When does the tally reset? This is important because as we've discussed you don't get paid any more for 6 -> 24 hours of work. So depending when and how you claim your hours you could get extra days.

For me it isn't a huge deal and I accept it as "part of the job". However at times it is interfering with my day job, which then has me staying at work after hours unpaid to finish work. Obviously I can't claim the overtime at my day job, because it isn't their fault. I could wait until I get home to answer all army emails but then that just delays every request by at least 1 day...

I really don't know how the Mcpls, Sgts and Wos do it without seriously interfering with either their jobs or relationships.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Class-A Pay Under 6 Hours
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2017, 10:05:59 »
Just to open the can of worms. How do we propose to "compensate" members. Do we tally up every minute we spend drafting correspondence, forwarding and responding to emails.  When does the tally reset? This is important because as we've discussed you don't get paid any more for 6 -> 24 hours of work. So depending when and how you claim your hours you could get extra days.

For me it isn't a huge deal and I accept it as "part of the job". However at times it is interfering with my day job, which then has me staying at work after hours unpaid to finish work. Obviously I can't claim the overtime at my day job, because it isn't their fault. I could wait until I get home to answer all army emails but then that just delays every request by at least 1 day...

I really don't know how the Mcpls, Sgts and Wos do it without seriously interfering with either their jobs or relationships.

Compensation for these "out of office work hours" is something that is made under the authorization of the CO.  The CO can 'authorize' hours and pay sheets for those hours, that unit pers work at home/civilian job outside of the unit on unit/CAF business.  An example may be that a CO authorizes a half day pay for the writing of PDRs at home. 
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