Author Topic: 'It's time to consolidate NDHQ' & 'DND to take-over Nortel Campus' (Merged threads)  (Read 155736 times)

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Offline x westie

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The MND speaking at the Royal Canadian Mititary Istitute was told by audience members that ND HQ is "top heavy with officers" a resource decision that is hindering the country's ability to put troops on the ground abroad, the MND responded that" he has been impressed with Defence Department personnel he has met so far", in other words ,nothing is going to change, this minister has "no balls", "The Gong Show" continues, bring on the clowns!! :salute:
« Last Edit: September 24, 2004, 13:48:02 by x westie »

Offline Infanteer

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Re: MND told to cut top heavy ND HQ
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2004, 13:51:06 »
Refernces?
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline x westie

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Re: MND told to cut top heavy ND HQ
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2004, 13:52:45 »
Globe and Mail-  Thursday, Sept 23-2004

Offline MCG

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Re: MND told to cut top heavy ND HQ
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2004, 14:05:12 »
... in other words ,nothing is going to change, this minister has "no balls", "The Gong Show" continues, bring on the clowns!! :salute:
So, which NDHQ jobs would you cut?

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Re: MND told to cut top heavy ND HQ
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2004, 14:37:59 »
I would not cut a single one.  I would however entertain the idea of moving NDHQ in it's entirety to a training area in the middle of nowhere (say similar to Pet, Gage, or Wainwright) and put the parking lot 8 to 10 km away from the front door.  Standing Orders would indicate that all pers are required to report to work in Marching Order.

This may eliminate the need to cut NDHQ jobs at the public's expense, as they would effectively eliminate themselves.  I also wager that 'clothe the soldier' and the next generation of field equipment would not take the better part of a career to hit our backs.



Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: MND told to cut top heavy ND HQ
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2004, 15:56:30 »
And how does forcing someone to quit, since you seem to assume your measures will do this, also make their responsibilities, and the requirement for those responsibilities to be done, disappear as well? I suspect the result would only be fewer people trying to do more and longer times for projects to reach completion. Despite the bashing of the staff that seems to be a favourite sport of some, no-one has yet identified which departments in NDHQ have no useful function and can disappear or work at a slower pace with fewer or lower-ranking and less experienced staff.

National Defence Headquarters Organizational Chart   --   http://www.vcds.forces.gc.ca/dgsp/00native/tools/NDHQ_Org_Chart_e.doc

National Defence Headquarters: Does it Work? By /par Colonel Douglas L. Wingert  --  http://198.231.69.12/papers/nssc4/wingert.doc


« Last Edit: September 24, 2004, 16:04:53 by Michael OLeary »

Offline x westie

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Re: MND told to cut top heavy ND HQ
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2004, 16:00:40 »
I wouldn't be surprised that there are more officers in the CF now than in WW2 ,when Canada had    3 Infantry Divisions, 2 Armoured Divs,plus Artillery Regiments ,engineers etc, over seas in Europe, its only common sense there is no need for a pile of officers in all three services of a combined strength of 50,000 plus some 13,000 reservervis ts, if the MND can;t do the math,then he is about as " smart as a fence post" .

Offline MCG

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Re: MND told to cut top heavy ND HQ
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2004, 17:05:37 »
if the MND can;t do the math,then he is about as " smart as a fence post" .
Show us you're no worse.   What jobs should be cut?

Offline Garbageman

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Re: MND told to cut top heavy ND HQ
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2004, 17:38:27 »
A little off topic, but any new word on moving NDHQ out to the burbs?  I know consideration was being given to this plan to free up the prime real estate and to take advantage of a newly vacated high tech facility (Nortel in Kanata maybe?)
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Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: MND told to cut top heavy ND HQ
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2004, 18:13:38 »
So how could the Canadian military operate with roughly the same amount of officers in WW2 with a much larger military vs today with a substantially smaller military?
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Offline Gunnerlove

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Re: MND told to cut top heavy ND HQ
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2004, 21:10:25 »
Members of the canadian military were more concerned with beating the Nazis and less concerned with empire building.

I wonder how many civilians work at NDHQ?
I wonder how many officers work at NDHQ?
I wonder how many NCMs work at NDHQ?
I wonder how much money we spend on NDHQ?

I would also like to see the number of officers in the CF compared to the number of NCMs then again it might make me sick like when I heard we had 33 generals.

If the CF was a public company the shareholders would be going insane trying to hang the BOG.





 
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Offline I, Citizen

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Re: MND told to cut top heavy ND HQ
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2004, 21:28:13 »
I think that it is better to have a top heavy system so when the time comes we can fill out the lower ranks then a bottom heavy system with overworked officers and a non-existent general base. A few poor privates will incur higher casualities, but incompetent leadership will lose the war.
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Offline Gunnerlove

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Re: MND told to cut top heavy ND HQ
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2004, 22:06:29 »
What you just posted is part of the cold war doctrine. Alas the cold war is over and we are short soldiers that are needed now. I think a balanced system would make more sense as everyone could take one or two steps up the ladder and not be lost. Thinking that you can fill vast units with undertrained privates and still achieve victory because you had some officers who have been flying a desk for years leading them into battle is a product of the residual class system we are forced to work within.

Our strength should come from the troops.
"Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty." Unknown

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Offline Goober

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Re: MND told to cut top heavy ND HQ
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2004, 22:42:34 »
Top heavy? Easy fix. Fill out the bottom.

Offline GINge!

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Re: MND told to cut top heavy ND HQ
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2004, 23:30:32 »
of a newly vacated high tech facility (Nortel in Kanata maybe?)

combining all of NDHQ into one location would be a great idea. Cheaper in the long run in terms of the rent paid at LSL. I think the building they were looking at was JDS Uniphase in Barrhaven/Nepean
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Offline Garbageman

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Re: MND told to cut top heavy ND HQ
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2004, 23:31:36 »
combining all of NDHQ into one location would be a great idea. Cheaper in the long run in terms of the rent paid at LSL. I think the building they were looking at was JDS Uniphase in Barrhaven/Nepean

That's the one I was thinking of, thanks! 

Duh, my cousin used to work at JDS!
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Offline GINge!

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Re: MND told to cut top heavy ND HQ
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2004, 23:36:22 »
So how could the Canadian military operate with roughly the same amount of officers in WW2 with a much larger military vs today with a substantially smaller military?

You ever been on a rifle range? Then you know the planning effort and staff required to run a range for only 1 shooter is practically the same as for 20. Similarly, the purchase of 66 MGS takes as much staff work as 20,000 Shermans.
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Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: MND told to cut top heavy ND HQ
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2004, 23:41:28 »
Actually if you've been to a range you will notice that the staff would greatly be reduced for 1 shooter vs 20.   1 guy in the butts, not 20 (that guy could even be the butts NCO).   1 support staff to adjust the shooters sites and give out tips instead of 1 for 3 to 4 shooters.   So I just cut down the staff about 22 pers.   Yes I am aware that you still need an ammo NCO regardless of numbers as well as a saftey driver etc.  My point is you can still cut a lot of the management.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2004, 23:45:17 by CFL »
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Offline Ex-fusilier

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Re: MND told to cut top heavy ND HQ
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2004, 00:30:36 »
I find it amusing that a lot of these opinions come from civvies, ppl in the recruiting process, or ppl who have never served here at NDHQ. 

Offline devil39

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Re: MND told to cut top heavy ND HQ
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2004, 00:31:33 »
I will preface my comments with the fact that I have never served in NDHQ.   I certainly will at some point I am sure.

That being said, when I was a soldier operating solely in the lower tactical level, with lots of Infantry battalion time, I quite regularly had occasion to feel certain amounts of ill will toward my fellow officers serving in NDHQ.   Likely unfounded as I was soon to discover.

I now quite regularly deal with the Land Staff as a Staff Officer in an Area Headquarters (for the last 2 months), and I have been continually impressed with the work ethic, responsibility, sheer volume of output, and the long hours put in by those I deal with on a regular basis.   It is not unusual for me to call up the Land Staff at 1730 - 1800 hrs Eastern Standard Time, and talk to an overworked staff officer who is putting in the long hours required to keep the required information and direction flowing downward to their subordinate headquarters.

There might be places to trim in NDHQ, but the people I deal with on the Land Staff need augmentation, not cuts, to keep up with the volume and complexity of the issues they deal with.

I would, as others have, ask where those cuts should occur?   No one that I deal with on a daily basis is superfluous to accomplishing the mission.



Offline Acorn

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Re: MND told to cut top heavy ND HQ
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2004, 02:03:26 »
I'd like to echo devil39's point that staffies at the Twin Towers of Doom (or the associated annexes) do work long hours. They get little credit, and loads of stick from "the field," yet they work harder than officers in the units, from what I've seen.

Those at the "centre" can often lose sight of life at the sharp end, but don't think they are a bunch of lazy sods.

Acorn
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: MND told to cut top heavy ND HQ
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2004, 02:42:05 »
Thanks for bringing this one back to earth Devil and Acorn.

Although I've been one to comment on perceived organizational irregularities, I've never attempted to dump it on the Staff Officers who get posted to Ottawa.  Sticking the blame on them, referring to "The Gong Show" and "bringing on the clowns", is really unfair and is akin to getting mad at a cop for giving you a speeding ticket; the guy is only trying to do the job assigned to him by his superiors.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

NavyGrunt

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Re: MND told to cut top heavy ND HQ
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2004, 02:49:51 »
is really unfair and is akin to getting mad at a cop for giving you a speeding ticket; the guy is only trying to do the job assigned to him by his superiors.


that and you were speeding...... ;D

Offline Infanteer

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Re: MND told to cut top heavy ND HQ
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2004, 02:53:32 »
The point was that getting mad at the cop will do no good as he doesn't set the speed limit.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Lance Wiebe

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Re: MND told to cut top heavy ND HQ
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2004, 07:25:14 »
Where to cut is a good question.

Am I wrong in saying that there are over 100 "general equivelent" working at NDHQ?  That there are actually more civilians than military running departments?  WHY?

Something has to be done about the ever-growing size of the civilian component of NDHQ.

I also think that there is one other place to cut.  For the life of me, I can't figure out why we have our normal chain of command, Minister, to CDS to Army to Area to Unit/Base, plus we have a Divisional HQ in Kingston.  What Division?  Where, exactly, do they fit in to the chain of command?

This really confuses me. ???
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