Author Topic: All things beard-y (regs, memos, Army/Navy) - merged  (Read 180643 times)

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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2010, 08:02:59 »
Hi, I'd like to know where, exactly, can I find the order-instruction-message ordering the shaving of beards for flight day?

Is it a Canlandgen, Canforgen or something else ?

I'm an infantryman eith the medical O3 shaving restriction, y'know' 'can't shave unless ordered so for operationnal reasons'. So, I'd like to check and make sure I'm not being played by a power hungry, beard hater velcro wearing Platoon 2IC.

Thanks.

And forget about the 'check with your COC' obvious replies, if you re-read my post you'll see I checked but the source is ...let's say biased.

If your MEL says no shaving except for operational reasons, then so be it.  By the tone of your message, and I quote "played by a power hungry, beard hater velcro wearing Platoon 2IC", this sounds like more of a personal thing between you two.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 14:16:25 by Jim Seggie »
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Offline recceguy

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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2010, 08:18:06 »
Actually not quite correct Technoviking. When the current CBRN mask was first released we had Pioneer Ptns and Naval pers who both readily wore beards. As was explained to me not long ago that mask was designed with facial hair included in the design process. So the often argued CBRN reason is actually null and void. Now on the Navy side of the house with a positive pressure system the facial  hair will now allow seal and that is why sailors at sea no longer have beards.

I am over here now and the beard issue is one of great discussion. It came out for my Roto (9...Leaving soon WOO HOO) that if you have a beard on your CF ID card and/or your passport your good, otherwise it must be shaved.

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HT

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From B-GJ-005-311/FP-020
CANADIAN FORCES NUCLEAR, BIOLOGICAL AND CHEMICAL DEFENCE
TACTICS, TECHNIQUES AND PROCEDURES

Quote
114. Hair Removal

1. Facial hair will drastically reduce the effectiveness of the C4 NBC Mask facepiece seal; therefore CF personnel
will shave at least once every 24 hours during operations under NBC threat. Moreover long hair can interfere
with donning the mask and may result in leakage around the face seal, hair will be kept short enough to ensure a
seal.

Your Unit CBRN Operator will have this info readily available.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 08:21:39 by recceguy »
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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #52 on: October 26, 2010, 10:53:12 »
Actually TV is right. What you've been told is false.


From B-GJ-005-311/FP-020
CANADIAN FORCES NUCLEAR, BIOLOGICAL AND CHEMICAL DEFENCE
TACTICS, TECHNIQUES AND PROCEDURES

Your Unit CBRN Operator will have this info readily available.

I have no doubt that is what that says. So I guess we could safely say the mask was no good for a certain percentage of toops for all the years it has been around. I have a feeling that this a new(ish) reg and its simply latching onto the common trend which is against beards these days in the CF.

FYI In 2009 I was FIT Tested, on board HMCS Toronto, with the C-4 BRN Mask and the Ultra Twin (Chemox Mask) and I passed all tests well within the allowable limits AND I had/have a full on hairy bag beard....I will produce my FIT Test card if requested...Just saying

Grow a beard and try it for your self, if your local staff will let you. I think you will be surprised.
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #53 on: October 26, 2010, 13:48:40 »
All this crap about not being able to get a seal with a beard is absolute nonsense.  I've worn a beard for over 20 years and have never once had trouble getting a seal with any of the C3, C4 or CHEMOX masks.  And, yes, I have had plenty of opportunities to test that fact.  It has also been suggested that stubble (which some men will develop relatively quickly after shaving) will actually hold the mask off the face because it is rigid and straight, whereas a beard (which is soft and pliable) will actually compress.

The argument against beards could also be made for hair on top of the head, but we don't make people shave their heads do we?

We could also solve this whole problem by switching to hood type masks, which seal around the neck.  such things do exist and they're easier to fit because a lesser variety of sizes is needed.   I would even go so far as to say that one size could fit all.
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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #54 on: October 26, 2010, 13:52:00 »
I think it just gives the manufacturer an easy out in case of deficiency.........
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Offline recceguy

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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #55 on: October 26, 2010, 14:11:06 »
All this crap about not being able to get a seal with a beard is absolute nonsense.  I've worn a beard for over 20 years and have never once had trouble getting a seal with any of the C3, C4 or CHEMOX masks.  And, yes, I have had plenty of opportunities to test that fact.  It has also been suggested that stubble (which some men will develop relatively quickly after shaving) will actually hold the mask off the face because it is rigid and straight, whereas a beard (which is soft and pliable) will actually compress.

The argument against beards could also be made for hair on top of the head, but we don't make people shave their heads do we?

We could also solve this whole problem by switching to hood type masks, which seal around the neck.  such things do exist and they're easier to fit because a lesser variety of sizes is needed.   I would even go so far as to say that one size could fit all.

So, I guess the three weeks I spent at the Bug School to become a CBRN Operator are all bullshit then. All the testing and drills are just put in place to frig with bearded personnel. Tell you what, just keep doing what your doing. I'll teach my guys the proper way to protect themselves according to the tested methods and as long as they are under my care they'll do it properly. Or I guess they can go join the Navy. ;)

I have a feeling that this a new(ish) reg and its simply latching onto the common trend which is against beards these days in the CF.


The reg about beards and masks is far from new. Its been around for the 35 years I've been serving.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 14:14:40 by recceguy »
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #56 on: October 26, 2010, 14:20:10 »
I'm with recceguy on this. Many years ago, the first orthodox Sikh recruit underwent NBCD trg in CFRS Cornwallis. He never had to shave nor cut his hair. We attempted several times to ensure a seal for the gas hut. Nothing worked.

The bottom line is, to the one who started this is that if you have to shave, shave. Period.
Never mind your childish rant about your "beard hating Pl 2IC". Be professional and suck it up.
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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #57 on: October 26, 2010, 14:50:22 »
All I am saying is I got/get a seal every time I have been through the gas hut or FF training in the past. You didn't answer though recceguy why is it just suddenly (last 5 years we'll say) that beards and masks are a no no ? What about all the time before while we had the C4 ? What changed ?

Like I said I am in Panjiway right now and the rule is if you have a beard on your passport or CF ID Card picture you can keep it, because it is considered changing your appearance when you shave it and that can cause issues trying pass through some airports and customs.
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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #58 on: October 26, 2010, 14:53:52 »
I think it just gives the manufacturer an easy out in case of deficiency.........

I think this may be closer to the real reason than any of us care to know...
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Offline recceguy

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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #59 on: October 26, 2010, 15:10:17 »
All I am saying is I got/get a seal every time I have been through the gas hut or FF training in the past. You didn't answer though recceguy why is it just suddenly (last 5 years we'll say) that beards and masks are a no no ? What about all the time before while we had the C4 ? What changed ?

Like I said I am in Panjiway right now and the rule is if you have a beard on your passport or CF ID Card picture you can keep it, because it is considered changing your appearance when you shave it and that can cause issues trying pass through some airports and customs.

 I did answer it. Take a look above. The policy is far from new. Once more, I have been following said policy for 35 years and it's still the policy and we are still following it.

I also have more than a passing acquaintance with the policy re: beards and ID. It has nothing to do with masks.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 15:12:53 by recceguy »
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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #60 on: October 26, 2010, 15:36:44 »
Check with your chain of command.  IIRC, there was a Task Force policy that required the TF Surgeon to sign off on beards in theater to avoid a bunch of bearded soldiers carrying weak "no-shave" chits from Base MIRs.  At least this was the case with a few of my soldiers.
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #61 on: October 26, 2010, 15:56:12 »
So, I guess the three weeks I spent at the Bug School to become a CBRN Operator are all bullshit then. All the testing and drills are just put in place to frig with bearded personnel. Tell you what, just keep doing what your doing. I'll teach my guys the proper way to protect themselves according to the tested methods and as long as they are under my care they'll do it properly. Or I guess they can go join the Navy. ;)

The reg about beards and masks is far from new. Its been around for the 35 years I've been serving.

I don't care how long the policy has been around.  It's flawed and applies a blanket approach to an individual issue.  Not everybody can get a seal with a beard, but then again, not everbody who is clean shaven can get a seal either.  My argument is that I can get a seal, so I shouldn't have to shave.  I'm not saying that this is true for everyone.

PS:  I'm no neophyte to CBRN either.
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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #62 on: October 26, 2010, 16:07:54 »
I too have been fit tested for the C4 gas mask, fire hawk SCBA, Chemox and did so with a beard in accordance with fit testing procedures. As long as you can get a seal you're good to go.
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Offline recceguy

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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #63 on: October 26, 2010, 16:50:28 »
Like I said, you Navy guys do whatever you want.

Until you get B-GJ-005-311/FP-020 changed, we'll stick with the current official direction. It's my *** when something happens because the directive is disregarded on my watch, not that of some faceless hairy navy guy. ;)
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Offline TN2IC

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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #64 on: October 26, 2010, 22:40:32 »
Check with your chain of command.  IIRC, there was a Task Force policy that required the TF Surgeon to sign off on beards in theater to avoid a bunch of bearded soldiers carrying weak "no-shave" chits from Base MIRs.  At least this was the case with a few of my soldiers.

This is the correct policy. I just had the briefing last week while getting on the ground here in the sandbox.

Offline Capt. Happy

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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #65 on: October 27, 2010, 05:57:09 »
This is the correct policy. I just had the briefing last week while getting on the ground here in the sandbox.

The problem with that blanket policy (as it was when I raised objections to it when it first surfaced on 3-08) is that cannot apply to MELs - they aren't "weak" shave chits, they're a medical category. One of my soldiers was on an MEL for shaving, and the amount of non-common sense flying around there WRT that MEL was ridiculous.

I understand that policy and why it is in place, but it needs to be directed at the right audience.

Offline Big Red

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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #66 on: October 27, 2010, 07:36:45 »
So what is the CBRN threat in Afghanistan?

Why is this such an issue?

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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #67 on: October 27, 2010, 07:48:07 »
You can turn that around real easily and say why is having a beard such an issue? If you have a MEL limitation/religious grounds and are allowed to have a beard, go for it. But expect a little bit of scrutiny because its not supposed to be common place.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #68 on: October 27, 2010, 07:57:43 »
So what is the CBRN threat in Afghanistan?

Why is this such an issue?

The CBRN was a "Red Herring" someone brought into the discussion.  It has nothing to do with Afghanistan, but with beards in general.  It was a "topic derailer".
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #69 on: October 27, 2010, 08:03:24 »
Thte problem is that the originator of this post doesn't like his Pl 2IC scrutinizing him. Look at the tone of his post.

Suck it buttercup.
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Offline Big Red

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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #70 on: October 27, 2010, 08:18:41 »
Thte problem is that the originator of this post doesn't like his Pl 2IC scrutinizing him. Look at the tone of his post.

Suck it buttercup.

He has a medical chit not to shave, yet is being made to for "operational reasons"

Hi, I'd like to know where, exactly, can I find the order-instruction-message ordering the shaving of beards for flight day?

Is it a Canlandgen, Canforgen or something else ?

I'm an infantryman eith the medical O3 shaving restriction, y'know' 'can't shave unless ordered so for operationnal reasons'. So, I'd like to check and make sure I'm not being played by a power hungry, beard hater velcro wearing Platoon 2IC.

So what operational reason is there in Afghanistan to negate his no shave chit?

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #71 on: October 27, 2010, 08:33:13 »
Take note of the tone: "I'd like to check and make sure I'm not being played by a power hungry, beard hater velcro wearing Platoon 2IC"

The unprofessional and childish tone is what sets my spider senses off.

The Pl Second in Command is doing his job, as directed from higher.

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Offline bruce7711

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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #72 on: October 27, 2010, 10:44:20 »
I agree with Jim and the others ref this.  Unless your face falls off every time you shave, then you shave.  A beard in afghanistan, even a week without shaving, is unbearable, especially during the summer months.  yes, at times you may not shave.  This is based on  water rationing, extended patrols etc. But as soon as these limitations are gone then you run a blade over your face.

I remember last year when the Vandoo BG showed up and everywhere you looked there were beards, even some of the women!  Soldiers weren't doing up helmets properly because of their beards properly because of their beards, they weren't maintaining them to CF regulations, they looked unkempt and stupid.  When the order came down from TFK HQ to shave there was outrage.  yet, the soldier shaved and low and behold, they were fine.

For some reason soldiers think that just because they are in Afghanistan they don't need to shave.  Where this mentality comes from I have no idea.  But it is a silly mentality.  Soldiers and leadership have bigger issues to worry about than shaving.  Like I said earlier, unless your face falls off every time you shave THEN SHAVE.

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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #73 on: October 27, 2010, 10:56:26 »
He has a medical chit not to shave, yet is being made to for "operational reasons"

Actually, he claims to have a medical chit, and that is all we know. It's not like it was scanned and added to the post so we can see exactly what he has.

Who wrote it this particular chit? How long ago? And was it connected to specific medical or other conditions at the time?

Is it a current chit recently written  (or recently re-written) by the medical staff of the deploying unit?  Or is it a crumpled, possibly self-laminated, chit he's been carrying and leaning on for years?

The bottom line is, we don't have all the facts, either medical or otherwise, and we are working with one side of a story which is carrying it's own bias against what he's been told.


Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Wearing of beard for 3-10
« Reply #74 on: October 27, 2010, 13:04:26 »
Actually, he claims to have a medical chit, and that is all we know. It's not like it was scanned and added to the post so we can see exactly what he has.

Who wrote it this particular chit? How long ago? And was it connected to specific medical or other conditions at the time?

Is it a current chit recently written  (or recently re-written) by the medical staff of the deploying unit?  Or is it a crumpled, possibly self-laminated, chit he's been carrying and leaning on for years?

The bottom line is, we don't have all the facts, either medical or otherwise, and we are working with one side of a story which is carrying it's own bias against what he's been told.

I'm an infantryman eith the medical O3 shaving restriction, y'know' 'can't shave unless ordered so for operationnal reasons'.

Actually, he claims to have a "medical category".  If his claim is taken at face value (and his obvious 'attitude' is overlooked) then it is likely the documentation surrounding his medical condition is more extensive than simply a "chit" saying no shaving.  However, having a medical category (with the specific MEL he states) does not automatically grant him immunity from any future familiarity with a razor.  Whatever he does to avoid shaving is probably going to p*ss off his Pl 2IC, so if he wants to press the matter he should request that the order to shave be put in writing and copies placed in both his pers and medical records so that "he is covered medically in case there are any adverse reactions".  Now, if such a request were to trigger a re-evaluation of his medical condition, there is a possibility that the category could be made even more restrictive - to the point that he is undeployable, thus unemployable, thus releasable.
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