Author Topic: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)  (Read 403162 times)

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Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1900 on: September 29, 2017, 09:28:46 »
How about a 220% offset increase in hydro rates for juice sold from Quebec to NY. Oh, wait, no.   Ontario buys electricity back from the US. ::)


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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1901 on: September 29, 2017, 12:48:05 »
Jobs....moving back to Ontario....? 

Hah!

Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer:

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1902 on: September 29, 2017, 15:17:19 »
Meanwhile the Luftwaffe is looking for a new fighter too  and faster than we are, it seems:

Quote
Germany asks for Boeing fighter data as weighs order options

Germany has asked the U.S. military for classified data on two Boeing fighter jets as it looks to replace its ageing Tornado warplanes from 2025, giving a boost to the U.S. company locked in a trade dispute with Canada and Britain.

A letter sent by the German defence ministry's planning division, reviewed by Reuters, said it had identified Boeing's F-15 and F/A-18E/F fighters as potential candidates to replace the Tornado jets, which entered service in 1981.

A classified briefing is expected to take place in mid-November, following a similar briefing provided by U.S. officials about the Lockheed Martin Corp F-35 fighter jet in July.

The ministry has said it is also seeking information from European aerospace giant Airbus, which builds the Eurofighter Typhoon along with Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Leonardo.

The development is a boost for Boeing at a time when it is under fire from Canada and Britain after its complaint prompted the United States to impose a preliminary 220-percent duty on CSeries jets built by Bombardier.

Boeing said it was working with the U.S. government to provide the information that Germany had requested.

Germany, due to decide in mid-2018 about how to replace the Tornado planes, announced plans in July to build a European fighter jet together with France [would that go ahead if F-35A is selected?]. But the new jet is unlikely to be available by 2025, when Germany's fleet of Tornado fighters are slated to start going out of service.

Sources familiar with the process said Germany was pursuing a two-pronged approach under which it would buy an existing fighter to replace the Tornado, while working with France on a new European jet to replace its Eurofighters at a later point.

Analysts said the Tornado replacement order could be worth tens of billions of dollars, although Germany is still reviewing how many jets to buy and at what pace.

The letter said a formal request for information about the pricing and availability of all three U.S. fighter jets was being compiled and would be issued by the end of the month.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/germany-asks-boeing-fighter-data-112454088.html

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1903 on: October 04, 2017, 13:01:54 »
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1904 on: October 04, 2017, 18:22:32 »
Aaaaand, on a lighter note, via Duffle Blog:  "F-35 Delayed After Fourth Prototype Becomes Self-Aware And Has To Be Destroyed"  ;D

Self-Awareness.  Something many pilots, apparently, have yet to achieve.

[cheers]
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Offline Rifleman62

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1905 on: October 05, 2017, 10:54:55 »
http://nationalpost.com/opinion/im-a-retired-u-s-naval-aviator-im-concerned-about-governments-delay-in-ensuring-rcaf-capability

Special to National Post - October 5, 2017

I'm a retired U.S. Naval Aviator. I'm concerned about government's delay in ensuring RCAF capability
Admiral Gortney: Some have called for the purchase of used legacy Hornets to address the RCAF's capability gap. This could pose problems down the road


When Prime Minister Justin Trudeau reopened the competition to select a fighter to replace the CF-18, two questions were raised from that decision, one with long-term implications, and one with immediate consequences. The first: when will the modernization of the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) fighter force be complete? The second: what will the RCAF do to mitigate the so-called capability gap (Canada’s current fleet is more than 30 years old, and down from 138 to 77 aircraft) to have a certain number of the most capable fighter jets mission-ready at all times and to ensure the capacity to address all the missions asked of it between now and complete modernization? I would like to address the second question.

I’m a retired U.S. Naval Aviator with almost 40 years of service. I commanded at every level in the U.S. Navy: Strike Fighter Squadrons, Air Wings, Carrier Strike Groups, and Fleets. I started flying the F-18A in 1983, and stopped flying the F/A-18E/F just before I made my third star off the flight decks of the USS Harry S Truman in the Arabian Gulf. After flying F/A-18’s for 25 years and continuing to command them for another eight years, I’ve been called a Hornet Admiral. I know Hornets and Super Hornets and have relied on them for decades. Today, I consult for industry, including Boeing. I do so because I believe in the importance of competition in the defense industrial base. Competition balances industry’s need to provide profit to their shareholders, while delivering both the best capability to the warfighter and value to the taxpayer.

My largest concern is the delay in capability of the RCAF
 
As the debate unfolds in Canada over the modernization of its fighter jet fleet, my largest concern is the continued delay in both capacity and capability of the Royal Canadian Air Force. I am also appalled at the vast amount of misinformation in the media over the issue. As just one example, some “experts” have suggested the Super Hornet can’t perform the Defence of Canada/North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) mission in the harsh Canadian climate, against the rapidly evolving Russian bomber/long range cruise missile threat. Let me assure you that that is not true.

Today’s Super Hornet — which the U.S. Navy is flying — is not yesterday’s Hornet, which the RCAF is currently flying. The Super Hornet is not a “big” Hornet. It is a completely different fighter, with completely different sensors and sensor fusion, with much smaller signatures, with much better active defensive measures. It carries more fuel and has more weapon stations. It just happens to look a little like a legacy Hornet and has “hornet” in its name.

Is the Super Hornet an F-35? No, and it is not meant to be. It is built and modernized to complement the rest of the U.S. Navy’s weapons system, which the F-35C will be a part of too. The Super Hornet is interoperable with all variants of the F-35 and will fly alongside them for years to come. Furthermore, the U.S. Navy will continue to modernize both the Super Hornet and F-35C for the next 30 plus years, keeping both aircraft modern and lethal. 

The Super Hornet is a completely different fighter from the Hornet
 
Why am I talking about U.S. Naval aviation while discussing the RCAF? The answer is simple. Both forces have the same missions, and operate in very similar threat environments. Both are required to surveil and defend a vast amount of battle space, and engage hostile fighters, bombers, and small radar cross-section cruise missiles in extremely harsh conditions.

In other words, the NORAD mission requires fighters with the ability to fly great distances and stay on station for a long time, with the right amount of signature reduction, integrated active defensive measures, Active Electronically Scanned Array radars, long-range infrared systems, and weapons.

For other missions, both the RCAF and U.S. Navy operate with international air forces to support combined and coalition joint operations.  No air force fights alone—not the U.S. Navy, not the U.S. Air Force, and certainly not the RCAF. No one air force owns the compilation of capabilities required to succeed in today’s—and tomorrow’s—threat environments. In the U.S. Armed Forces, that capability resides in the air arm of all four services—the Air Force, Army, Marines, and Navy. They fight as a team. The RCAF is also a critical part of that team.

Purchasing legacy Hornets could pose many problems down the road
 

Some people—including representatives of the Canadian government and other public and private citizens—have called for the potential purchase of used legacy Hornets to address these needs. This could pose many problems down the road. First, it is increasingly hard to find spare parts for F/A-18A/B/C/D models around the world, and the cost to keep them flying continues to grow. Already military maintainers have been forced to cannibalize some jets to keep others in the air. And there are only so many times the lives of the current aircraft can be extended before putting the safety of pilots at risk. Second, these used legacy Hornets will still not provide the modernized fighter capability that the RCAF desperately needs to complete its mission. More fundamentally, legacy Hornets are rapidly losing their ability to counter the rapidly evolving Russian threat. For these reasons, the U.S. Navy is accelerating the retirement of its legacy Hornets, and replacing them with new and even more advanced Super Hornets.

Finding the right balance of survivability, blended stealth capabilities, self-protection, weapons capacity, and range at an affordable cost is the key to fighter aviation in any country. Additionally, as every commander will tell you, it is not the aircraft but the aviator that is the critical component of a fighter, and Canadian fighter pilots are the best I have commanded and flown with. But complex fighter jets are not heirlooms to be handed down from father to grandson. High-speed flight and repeated takeoffs and landings take a heavy toll, and technology marches forward bringing new and necessary capabilities to outpace and defeat current and future threats.

The modernization of Canadian Air Force Fighters must not be further delayed. Canadian aviators desperately need more capable fighters, today—not in the next decade. One solution to help alleviate this urgent need is to expedite the implementation of the Interim Fighter Capability Project, and integrate 18 new Super Hornet aircraft into the RCAF fighter fleet until the long-term solution is implemented.                                                                                                                     

National Post                                                                                                         

Admiral Bill Gortney culminated his 39 years of commissioned service as Commander, North American Aerospace Defense Command and Commander, United States Northern Command.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 11:13:23 by Rifleman62 »
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Offline AlexanderM

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1906 on: October 05, 2017, 11:48:33 »
I wonder if he showed that to Boeing before its release, I'm sure they were very pleased.

Offline Colin P

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1907 on: October 05, 2017, 11:51:42 »
Well from my reading here, it seems Boeing is doing us no favours cost wise on this potential purchase and as much as I would like to see a mixed fleet of 80 fighters, the purchase price of the SH does not appear to offer any savings now over the F-35.

Offline AlexanderM

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1908 on: October 05, 2017, 12:09:03 »
Well from my reading here, it seems Boeing is doing us no favours cost wise on this potential purchase and as much as I would like to see a mixed fleet of 80 fighters, the purchase price of the SH does not appear to offer any savings now over the F-35.
$6.4B for 18 fighters, $355M per aircraft, no way that's going to fly. Making a deal like that could cost the Liberals the next election. It would be great if L-M would just submit a quote for the 88 F-35's, even at $95M USD per aircraft it would be a great deal in comparison.

Offline jmt18325

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1909 on: October 05, 2017, 12:14:11 »
$6.4B for 18 fighters, $355M per aircraft, no way that's going to fly. Making a deal like that could cost the Liberals the next election. It would be great if L-M would just submit a quote for the 88 F-35's, even at $95M USD per aircraft it would be a great deal in comparison.

It wouldn't be $95M for a comparable suite of capabilities.  Not even close.  It would be in the same ballpark. 

Offline AlexanderM

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1910 on: October 05, 2017, 12:46:10 »
One should provide a source for such a claim.

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Offline jmt18325

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1912 on: October 05, 2017, 12:52:19 »
One should provide a source for such a claim.

You first?

Offline AlexanderM

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Offline AlexanderM

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1914 on: October 05, 2017, 13:12:30 »
Will we buy?

1) Bombardier dispute:

Boeing walked away from talks with Trudeau government: [Canadian] ambassador
http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/boeing-walked-away-from-talks-with-trudeau-government-ambassador-1.3585908

2) Note eight dual-seaters and cost:

3) Globe and Mail story:

That's $355M each all-in, folks!

Mark
Ottawa
As in right here. It was item 3 the Globe and Mail story.

Offline AlexanderM

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1915 on: October 05, 2017, 14:27:17 »
We also have this report of an F-35 sale getting close, to 11 nations, $37B+ for 440 aircraft, that's under $100M each. The question is what else is added to the cost, we need to see the full quotes to know, it can't be based on an opinion.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airshow-paris-f35/exclusive-lockheed-nears-37-billion-plus-deal-to-sell-f-35-jet-to-11-countries-idUSKBN1990S8

Offline AlexanderM

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1916 on: October 05, 2017, 15:54:07 »
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/feature/5/186776/canada-charged-six-times-as-much-as-us-navy-for-super-hornets.html

Here is the link
Thank you for this. They are making assumptions about the F-35 pricing, but if this does prove to be true we need to know as soon as possible. I don't know that they can simply inflate the pricing to partner nations, as we are supposed to be partners in the program, but they can make the price look attractive and then hit us with substantial additional costs, this is why we need to get a look at a proper quote. If this is going to become policy, with America First simply jacking up the price of all military equipment to Canada, then we are going to have to look at other options. JT is going to Washington next week to discuss trade and economic ties and I have a feeling he is going to be looking for some answers.

This is a quote from the above article.

The US government has offered Canada a batch of Super Hornet fighters at a price that is six times higher than the US Navy is paying for the same aircraft, analysis of official US documents reveals.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 19:02:42 by AlexanderM »

Offline jmt18325

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1917 on: October 05, 2017, 16:39:15 »
We also have this report of an F-35 sale getting close, to 11 nations, $37B+ for 440 aircraft, that's under $100M each. The question is what else is added to the cost, we need to see the full quotes to know, it can't be based on an opinion.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airshow-paris-f35/exclusive-lockheed-nears-37-billion-plus-deal-to-sell-f-35-jet-to-11-countries-idUSKBN1990S8

That's for the air frame.  The potential deal with Boeing is for more than air frames.

Offline AlexanderM

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1918 on: October 05, 2017, 16:46:48 »
Here is the source.

http://www.defenseone.com/business/2017/02/charted-heres-how-cost-each-version-f-35-changing/135451/

Here is the quote.

These figures reflect the flyaway cost of each plane: the price of the airframe, engine, electronics, and other associated costs — basically, the amount it takes to purchase and assemble the parts.

There are other ways to calculate the “true” cost of an F-35. You can include all the design and development work that took the aircraft from idea to production model, or throw in maintenance, planned upgrades, and long-term operating costs.

For years, prime contractor Lockheed Martin — would simply tout the cost of the airframe itself, sans engine and other fees that added tens of millions of dollars to the cost of each plane.

For the past four years, the F-35 program office began releasing figures that they say are a more accurate representation of the true cost, a value that includes the airframe, engine and other fees.

Offline AlexanderM

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1919 on: October 05, 2017, 23:28:26 »
They had a rep from Boeing on the news the other week, he said that Boeing spends $3B a year in Canada, and sure enough that's what they spend and it supports 17k jobs in Canada. He specifically made this point in case Canada decides to kick them out over the dispute.

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2016-10-13-Boeing-Provides-More-than-US-3-Billion-Annual-Economic-Benefit-in-Canada

So then I come across this which states that Bombardier spends $2.4B a year in the USA and it supports 22.7k jobs in the USA.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-bombardier-us-impact/bombardier-spends-2-4-billion-a-year-on-aerospace-in-u-s-document-idUSKBN1CA2N6

Here I thought this would favor Boeing but not really, the Canadian company supports more jobs in the US then they support here. So kicking them out might not be as big a deal as I thought.

Offline Colin P

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1920 on: October 06, 2017, 11:40:33 »
The industries on both sides of the border are more linked than they would like to think, MTU in Vancouver is the service provider for a good chunk of the engines being used on both sides , including the USAF.

Offline Rifleman62

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1921 on: October 06, 2017, 14:29:05 »
Since Canada's National Charity (CNC) is involved with the replacement issue:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bombardier-cseries-boeing-1.4343262

U.S. hits Bombardier with 79.82% preliminary duty on CSeries aircraft -CBC News - Oct 06, 2017 8:41 AM ET
Montreal-based airplane maker says it's confident penalties will be overturned

The U.S. Commerce Department hit Bombardier Friday with more duties on its CSeries commercial jet.

The department said it will impose a 79.82 per cent preliminary anti-dumping duty against the Montreal-based company's 100- to 150-seat civilian aircraft.

The U.S. government move follows last week's decision to slap preliminary countervailing tariffs of nearly 220 per cent on Bombardier, bringing the total duties imposed by the U.S. on the CSeries to almost 300 per cent.

Boeing, the petitioner in the case, has argued that the Canadian government unfairly subsidizes Bombardier in the construction of the CSeries commercial jets. Boeing launched its appeal to the U.S. government in April, several months after Bombardier announced the sale of up to 125 CSeries jets to Delta Airlines.

The duties being imposed by the U.S. won't be collected until Bombardier begins delivering the aircraft to Delta, which is expected in the spring.

"This determination confirms that, as Boeing alleged in its petition, Bombardier dumped its aircraft into the U.S. market at absurdly low prices," Boeing said Friday.

 "These duties are the consequence of a conscious decision by Bombardier to violate trade law and dump their CSeries aircraft to secure a sale," Boeing said. "This dumping in our home market was not a situation Boeing could ignore, and we're now simply asking for laws already on the books to be enforced."

In announcing the latest duties, U.S. Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross said the United States is committed "to free, fair and reciprocal trade with Canada, but this is not our idea of a properly functioning trading relationship."

"We will continue to verify the accuracy of this decision, while doing everything in our power to stand up for American companies and their workers."

The U.S. government says a final decision on the anti-dumping duties related to Bombardier is scheduled for Dec. 19, 2017.
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1922 on: October 10, 2017, 12:07:23 »
Oh dear, maybe used RAAF Hornets after all:

Quote
Exploring options to supplement Canada’s CF-18 fleet
Statements


From Public Services and Procurement Canada

For immediate release

October 9, 2017, Ottawa – Public Services and Procurement Canada

Canada is building a more agile, better-equipped military, while ensuring the utmost care and prudence in the handling of public funds. Getting our women and men in uniform the equipment they need to do their jobs and protect Canadians, is a priority.

In November 2016, the Government of Canada announced a plan to replace the Royal Canadian Air Force fighter jet fleet. The Canada’s Defence Policy: Strong, Secure, Engaged, released in June 2017, reaffirmed the government’s commitment to invest appropriately in Canada’s military. Preparatory work for the competition is already underway. Until an open and transparent competition can be completed to replace Canada’s legacy CF-18 fleet, Canada is exploring options to supplement the current CF-18 fleet and address an existing fighter capability gap.

In late August 2017, Canada began discussions with the Australian Government to assess the potential purchase of F/A-18 fighter aircraft and associated parts they plan to sell. On September 29, 2017, Canada submitted an Expression of Interest, formally marking Canada’s interest in the Australian equipment. Canada expects to receive a response by the end of this year [emphasis added] that will provide details regarding the availability and cost of the aircraft and associated parts that Canada is considering.

Separate discussions with Boeing related to the interim purchase of Super Hornet aircraft remain suspended [emphasis added]. The Government of Canada continues to engage with the U.S. Government as it explores all options moving forward.

The Government of Canada will continue to provide updates and keep Canadians informed of its progress as it moves forward on replacing and supplementing Canada’s fighter aircraft.
https://www.canada.ca/en/public-services-procurement/news/2017/10/exploring_optionstosupplementcanadascf-18fleet.html

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1923 on: October 10, 2017, 13:38:28 »
In the purity of the "resolve the capability gap for best value" effort, this is the best answer.  Canada and the Aussies have long collaborated on CF-188 & F/A-18 flight loading analysis and life-cycle management beyond the US Navy's original flight usage spectrum - going as far as to create a 'Frankenhornet' (spliced halves of Cdn and Aus 18s) to run through a strain rig to analyze and optimize the aircraft's capability and sustainability.

If you want to see how far they went, read this report :geek: on the Joint AUSCAN IFOSTP (International Follow-On Structural Test Program) results. (ref: http://www.icas.org/ICAS_ARCHIVE/ICAS2002/PAPERS/6.PDF)

Regards

G2G

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1924 on: October 10, 2017, 14:46:54 »
Best? Or least worst?

Between the two fleets how many flying hours could they scrape together?
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