Author Topic: C3 Howitzer Replacement  (Read 125876 times)

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Offline FJAG

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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #450 on: July 31, 2020, 15:50:18 »
During the Second World War and into the 1950s the Brits and the Americans, and probably some others, fielded 240mm guns. In fact, the first nuclear artillery round was fired from "Atomic Annie", an American 240mm. It, the gun, not the round, is now on display at the US Army Artillery Center at Fort Sill, OK. I remember as a young teen watching a clip of the fire mission on a television news broadcast.

However, your point is valid. At the time that the pamphlet referred to was written, in the 1980s, I don't think there was anything larger than a 203mm in NATO land forces service. As I alluded in a previous post, there was quite a bit of wishful thinking, if not outright fantasy in the pamphlet in mention.

Note: the 240mm was pretty cumbersome and difficult to move, and its ammunition expenditure was tightly controlled to preserve barrel life. Any gunner past the toddler stage may recall being told as part of a lecture on calibration, how the MV of very large calibre guns was adjusted for barrel wear during periods of prolonged firing.

Small correction Old Sweat. Atomic Annie was a 280mm (11inch) calibre.

I had a Revell plastic model of Atomic Annie as a kid in the early 60s and they've just reissued a 60th anniversary edition of the kit.



https://www.cybermodeler.com/hobby/kits/rm/kit_rm_7811.shtml



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M65_atomic_cannon#/media/File:M65_Atomic_canon_1.jpg

 :cheers:

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Offline Colin P

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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #451 on: July 31, 2020, 17:23:37 »
Most of the long surviving Battleships in WWII had to get their guns relined part way through the war. When you read the ammo expenditures for the big guns it's quite surprising, I think it was the Bismark engagement, the Brit ship fired some 300 rds in total.

Offline Old Sweat

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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #452 on: August 01, 2020, 07:16:10 »
Small correction Old Sweat. Atomic Annie was a 280mm (11inch) calibre.

I had a Revell plastic model of Atomic Annie as a kid in the early 60s and they've just reissued a 60th anniversary edition of the kit.



https://www.cybermodeler.com/hobby/kits/rm/kit_rm_7811.shtml



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M65_atomic_cannon#/media/File:M65_Atomic_canon_1.jpg

 :cheers:

Absolutely correct. I looked it up last night, but decided to see who would catch me. The Americans did do some work on a 240mm round, but canned it.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #453 on: August 01, 2020, 11:07:27 »
Small correction Old Sweat. Atomic Annie was a 280mm (11inch) calibre.

I had a Revell plastic model of Atomic Annie as a kid in the early 60s and they've just reissued a 60th anniversary edition of the kit.



https://www.cybermodeler.com/hobby/kits/rm/kit_rm_7811.shtml



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M65_atomic_cannon#/media/File:M65_Atomic_canon_1.jpg

 :cheers:

I knew some guys in the nuke battery with the British army. I desperately wanted to acquire one of their T-shirt’s, which I think had a mushroom cloud and the motto: ‘Instant Sunshine’.
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #454 on: August 01, 2020, 11:12:57 »
I knew some guys in the nuke battery with the British army. I desperately wanted to acquire one of their T-shirt’s, which I think had a mushroom cloud and the motto: ‘Instant Sunshine’.

Yep! They say that we, Canadians, are obsessed with the weather ... but if the joke refers to sunshine over rain, it has to come from the Brits. ;D

Offline Old Sweat

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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #455 on: August 01, 2020, 11:26:24 »
In the late 60s, when 4 CMBG was still part of 2 (BR) Division in 1 (BR) Corps, each division had a missile regiment of two Honest John batteries, each of two launcher sections, and two gun batteries, each of two towed 8-inch (203mm) howitzers. Our nuclear delivery unit, 1 SSM Battery, had two troops, each of two launcher sections.

Offline FJAG

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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #456 on: August 01, 2020, 12:01:54 »
In the late 60s, when 4 CMBG was still part of 2 (BR) Division in 1 (BR) Corps, each division had a missile regiment of two Honest John batteries, each of two launcher sections, and two gun batteries, each of two towed 8-inch (203mm) howitzers. Our nuclear delivery unit, 1 SSM Battery, had two troops, each of two launcher sections.

The 8-inch (203mm) was also nuclear capable.

For that matter there was a 155mm nuclear shell which could be fired from the M109, M114 and M198 howitzers at the time.

My understanding is that both the 155mm and 203mm rounds have been retired.

Yup. Back in the day our fireplans had a nuclear pulse component. I think Old Sweat and I are probably two of the very few nuclear target analysts left around.  ;D

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Offline Old Sweat

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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #457 on: August 01, 2020, 14:46:02 »
The 8-inch (203mm) was also nuclear capable.

For that matter there was a 155mm nuclear shell which could be fired from the M109, M114 and M198 howitzers at the time.

My understanding is that both the 155mm and 203mm rounds have been retired.

Yup. Back in the day our fireplans had a nuclear pulse component. I think Old Sweat and I are probably two of the very few nuclear target analysts left around.  ;D

 :cheers:

The 8-inch was indeed nuclear capable. The British employment, in this regard, was similar to the Honest John, in that the section would be in a hide, prepared to deploy to a, perhaps one of several, prepared firing positions. When the deployment order was received, the section would move forward onto the position, after having received a prepared round from the resident US custodial detachment, deploy and at the pre-arranged time, fire the round, and then hopefully "scoot" back into another hide.

One of the most memorable occasions on my career took place, watching this procedure in Germany in Spring 1969. I was the second Canadian IG deployed to Europe to assist 1 RCHA, in this case at its Spring practice camp shortly after it converted to M109. (By the way, at this time the British gunnery staff considered 1 RCHA to be the best artillery regiment they had ever seen.)

Well, I was visiting an A Battery gun position when we noticed some odd activity off to one flank. It was a British 8-inch nuclear section preparing to fire a practice mission. The marker was placed, the instruments set up, and the gun was towed onto the position behind a monster of a truck. Down trails, and the detachment brought it into action. Unfortunately the towing vehicle broke down and there was a major panic of the "if in worry or in doubt, run in circles, scream, and shout" variety, but the recovery folks were able to drag the truck away from the gun platform. The lieutenant section commander commenced his sequence of orders, the projectile was rammed and  . . . nobody could find the propelling charge. Major panic number two, and by the way, forget anything you have ever heard about the British  being unflappable. Finally a little man dashed out of the woods with a large propelling charge in his arms, it was loaded, and "BOOM", away the round went. Now for the scoot, which it wasn't, with a REME wrecker towing the gun tractor onto the position, the detachment hooking the gun up, and the whole things lumbering off. Our troops had been quiet enough during all this, but as the section disappeared, a loud voice bellowed from the B Troop gun line, "looks like an A Troop quick action" and we all collapsed in hysterical laughter. 

Offline FJAG

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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #458 on: August 01, 2020, 15:36:11 »
 :rofl:
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Online tomahawk6

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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #459 on: August 02, 2020, 11:08:37 »
Then there was the 175mm self propelled gun which was nuclear capable. It performed well in Vietnam and Israel.

http://www.military-today.com/artillery/m107.htm#:~:text=Only%202%20types%20of%20175%20mm%20ammunition%20were,2%20rounds%20are%20carried%20on%20the%20M107%20itself.

Offline jeffb

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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #460 on: August 02, 2020, 15:32:10 »
This thread has gone from C3 howitzer replacement all the way to nuclear 8" howitzers...
~ Ubique ~
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #461 on: August 02, 2020, 16:40:27 »
I think 30 FD Regt RCA, the Bytown gunners, need a 8" nuclear capable gun for their primary mission of... checks notes... ceremonial firing in the Nation's capital.
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Offline FJAG

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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #462 on: August 02, 2020, 16:59:39 »
This thread has gone from C3 howitzer replacement all the way to nuclear 8" howitzers...

We're nothing if not consistent in our ability to ramble all over the place.

There! There's your straight line. The gauntlet has been thrown down.

 ;D
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Offline jeffb

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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #463 on: August 02, 2020, 17:01:12 »
But have we stopped to consider re-purposed 8" naval guns for the PRes? Maybe bring back coastal defence?
~ Ubique ~
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #464 on: August 02, 2020, 17:25:00 »
This being Canada, we'd be ordered to stand up coastal defence batteries on Calgary and Thunder Bay...
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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #465 on: August 02, 2020, 17:34:36 »
This being Canada, we'd be ordered to stand up coastal defence batteries on Calgary and Thunder Bay...

Neither of whom have any artillery. Is this an expansion of the corps or are you rebadging two infantry battalions?

Oh, and Thunder Bay is actually on the coast of a border lake.

 ;D
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Offline CBH99

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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #466 on: August 02, 2020, 17:40:07 »
Neither of whom have any artillery. Is this an expansion of the corps or are you rebadging two infantry battalions?

Oh, and Thunder Bay is actually on the coast of a border lake.

 ;D


Go ahead.  Invade Thunder Bay, Ontario.  Have fun with that...   :salute:

What?  No, we don't want it back.  It's yours now. 
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #467 on: August 02, 2020, 17:50:02 »
Neither of whom have any artillery. Is this an expansion of the corps or are you rebadging two infantry battalions?

Oh, and Thunder Bay is actually on the coast of a border lake.

 ;D
Just more Reg F positions for career managers to no fill...
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Offline MilEME09

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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #468 on: August 02, 2020, 18:45:02 »
Neither of whom have any artillery. Is this an expansion of the corps or are you rebadging two infantry battalions?

Oh, and Thunder Bay is actually on the coast of a border lake.

 ;D

Actually we have an artillery unit in calgary on the Suplimentry ORBAT, 19th Medium Artillery Regiment, RCA was reduced to nill strength in 1965.
"We are called a Battalion, Authorized to be company strength, parade as a platoon, Operating as a section"

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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #469 on: August 02, 2020, 18:59:18 »
If we abbreviate the term Supplementary Order of Battle, does that mean Calgary gunners are SOBs?
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Offline Colin P

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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #470 on: August 03, 2020, 03:41:46 »
But have we stopped to consider re-purposed 8" naval guns for the PRes? Maybe bring back coastal defence?

Bah 8' is a downgrade, we need 9.2" for coastal defense

Offline FJAG

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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #471 on: August 03, 2020, 22:20:13 »


 :cheers:
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Offline MilEME09

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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #472 on: August 04, 2020, 00:22:01 »


 :cheers:

HE + WP = shake and bake. Atleast they die warm
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Offline CBH99

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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #473 on: August 04, 2020, 00:44:25 »
HE + WP = shake and bake. Atleast they die warm


Damn that's dark  lol
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: C3 Howitzer Replacement
« Reply #474 on: August 04, 2020, 12:12:12 »

Damn that's dark  lol

Not if you cap it off with a good illum program :)
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon