Topic: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF

[Eye In The Sky]

Without getting into the specifics, I know for a fact that most of the junior guys know, we were all shooting the crap and that came out. A few others said they partake on occasion as well. That was over a year ago. He does it on weekends in the comfort of his own home, nobody cares, the guy hasn't been called out on it, nor anyone else who said they use it.

The guy is a keener, works hard, will probably be a RSM one day, CoC loves him, never complains, and is overall a great soldier. If you want to relate that to being a danger to others by driving under the influence, be my guest, but I don't think that's the case and I wont be the guy blading someone when nobody I know has a problem with what he said. He's not a danger to himself or others, so I'll mind my own business.

Try having a read of the stuff I posted above.  If you know about it, and you don't do something about, YOU are part of the problem.  The laws haven't changed yet, or your duty as a CAF member.  Keener, hard worker, whatever.  He/she is breaking stride with CAF regulations.  Great soldiers are disciplined ones too.  Disciplined people do the right thing, the right way, at the right time, when no one is watching.

His/her CoC wouldn't love him/her if they knew he was using prohibited drugs.  I'd bet a years spec pay on that one.

Personally, I don't know enough about pot use to know how harmful it is, isn't compared to booze etc etc etc.  There are some real valid medical uses for it, sure.  Some vets are benefitting from it and that's good.  Other medical patients, good as well.  If Canada as a society goes legal, great I hope the tax revenue helps Canada.  I don't support it being authorized for use by serving members, I doubt I am alone in that BUT that will be up to the senior Commanders and their expert advisors;  Legal, Medical, etc.  I am not one of them.  I am, as per the DAOD, QR & Os, etc above, as a Snr NCO and NCM, expected to do my job which is enforce whatever regulations are out there.  If I knew someone on my crew was smokin' it up, I'd give them a choice - report to the Flight Surgeon or answer to the CO.

[Altair]

Try having a read of the stuff I posted above.  If you know about it, and you don't do something about, YOU are part of the problem.  The laws haven't changed yet, or your duty as a CAF member.  Keener, hard worker, whatever.  He/she is breaking stride with CAF regulations.  Great soldiers are disciplined ones too.  Disciplined people do the right thing, the right way, at the right time, when no one is watching.

His/her CoC wouldn't love him/her if they knew he was using prohibited drugs.  I'd bet a years spec pay on that one.

You would win that bet I'm sure 99 time out of a 100, I'm positive of that.

[Eye In The Sky]

You would win that bet I'm sure 99 time out of a 100, I'm positive of that.

Yup.  Because it's against the regs and no CO would turn a blind eye to it or they wouldn't be doing THEIR duty.  I know, no one wants to be a blade.  I hope you never have to go to work to find out your co-worker ran some kid over driving while he / she was on the buzz.

Having said that, I've made my view known, I don't want to get a  going. 

Cheers!

[Colin P]

The reality in any type of society, there are offenses and then there are offense. You can't stop everyone and charge them and literally everyone breaks some law, bylaw, regulation or guideline everyday. Most police officers quickly learn how to prioritize their time. A person being charged with a minor offense may have created a situation where that charge is followed through on. Just by being polite to a police officers likely saves many Canadians from various tickets every day. Likely smoking pot is the largest civil disobedience in Canada, with unregistered long guns having been 2nd. 

[Eye In The Sky]

While I agree with all WRT Canadian society at large, I don't agree for within the CAF.  Unless the rules are changed.   

[the 48th regulator]

Cannabis comes in a variety of strains, with varying levels Cannabinoids.  Just like alcohol, some can be high in the psychoactive, and others safer on impairment than taking an aspirin.  Maybe a little self research would change the minds of a few, and not refer to people using it as "Cheech and Chong".  The stigma is more harmful than the plant itself.  We have many educational threads on this site.

I am all for Cannabis use, when legalized, by ALL Canadians.  The CDS himself was asked that question a little over a year ago, at a town hall here in Toronto. His response?  IF my boss tells me it is legal for the troops, I follow orders like a good soldier.

He placed no bias, or opinion. Just stated fact.  We have many other intoxicants that we tolerate, that arelegal, whether recreational or Medicinal, yet I have never seen any discussion.  Talk about the Devil's Salad, and all hell breaks loose.

It's safe people, and we are already trained to deal with our soldiers performance, concentrate on that, not what can cause the performance to "Possibly" deteriorate.


dileas

tess

[mariomike]

For more on "Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF"

Drug use/drug testing in the CF (merged)
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=16153.650
27 pages.

Marijuana and the military.
http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,110660.0/nowap.html

Liberal party, legalization marijuana & the CF 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=116407.0

Pilot and Marijuana 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=107285.0
2 pages.

Merged drugs thread (previous use, testing, etc.) 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=12779.1100
48 pages.

etc...

[Loachman]

Keeping in mind that reduced oxygen, reduced air pressure, three-dimensional motion, visual illusions, stress, fatigue, and other factors can all influence the effects that even low levels of these things have, and not for the better, do you really want the guy in the front seat of your helicopter or aeroplane, or the guy about to do the live CAS or CCA run close to your position, even the slightest bit affected by any chemical?

Anybody who answers "yes" is a fool.

I would not, ever, willingly and knowingly, have compromised my ability to perform adequately and safely, as that guy in the front seat.

I never knew of anybody else, in my time, who did, either.

Had I, I would not have let it go unreported.

There is a lengthy history of deaths and aircraft losses due to problem people being left to continue foolish (not necessarily drug- or alcohol-related) ways with no correction.

Proper correction, early enough, can save a person when the problem is small and easily handled and before the result is catastrophic to their career or to people's lives.

[the 48th regulator]

Keeping in mind that reduced oxygen, reduced air pressure, three-dimensional motion, visual illusions, stress, fatigue, and other factors can all influence the effects that even low levels of these things have, and not for the better, do you really want the guy in the front seat of your helicopter or aeroplane, or the guy about to do the live CAS or CCA run close to your position, even the slightest bit affected by any chemical?

Anybody who answers "yes" is a fool.

I would not, ever, willingly and knowingly, have compromised my ability to perform adequately and safely, as that guy in the front seat.

I never knew of anybody else, in my time, who did, either.

Had I, I would not have let it go unreported.

There is a lengthy history of deaths and aircraft losses due to problem people being left to continue foolish (not necessarily drug- or alcohol-related) ways with no correction.

Proper correction, early enough, can save a person when the problem is small and easily handled and before the result is catastrophic to their career or to people's lives.

Very well said.

That is why the onus is on the individual, not the system, to actually controll that. 

If you had a mission in the morning, to fly, I surely hope the night/Morning before the pilots have not been dong shots of tequila, chased with large shots of Prairie fires.  Totally irresponsible of the individual.

I would expect the same from Cannabis, or any other intoxicant, whether it is used medicinally or recreationally.  Period, Full Stop.

dileas

tess

[Chief Engineer]

Honestly the trouble we currently have and had in the forces with alcohol and drugs including Cannabis and we end up legalizing it in the forces is something we don't need.  Like was mentioned before with all the variables including strain, affecting everyone differently is not like having a beer at all. That being said once you are out have at er.

[Eye In The Sky]

Cannabis comes in a variety of strains, with varying levels Cannabinoids.  Just like alcohol, some can be high in the psychoactive, and others safer on impairment than taking an aspirin.  Maybe a little self research would change the minds of a few, and not refer to people using it as "Cheech and Chong".  The stigma is more harmful than the plant itself.  We have many educational threads on this site.

I am all for Cannabis use, when legalized, by ALL Canadians.  The CDS himself was asked that question a little over a year ago, at a town hall here in Toronto. His response?  IF my boss tells me it is legal for the troops, I follow orders like a good soldier.

He placed no bias, or opinion. Just stated fact.  We have many other intoxicants that we tolerate, that arelegal, whether recreational or Medicinal, yet I have never seen any discussion.  Talk about the Devil's Salad, and all hell breaks loose.

It's safe people, and we are already trained to deal with our soldiers performance, concentrate on that, not what can cause the performance to "Possibly" deteriorate.


dileas

tess

As MedicineMan mentioned in his post, you can use a clock for alcohol, but THC works differently.  We have an 8 hours before DUTY, 12 hours before FLYING rule we follow.  Rigidly.  I can't see a CAF where SAR Techs, Clearance Divers, pilots and such are authorized to use this drug.

Canadian society at large...hey, do whatever is legal.  Same as the CAF, but as we see in the thread we have people doing it, people who know and are turning a blind eye.  Our rules are still rules.

I'll leave it in the hands of the CofC and their Legal and Medical advisors, and enforce whatever rules they come out with.  If its proven to be medically fit for flyers, I guess I'll have to decide it I want to keep on logging hours. 

My main concern, at this point, is the concept that people are turning the blind eye.  We have rules, we operate on discipline or the wheels start to come off. 

[the 48th regulator]

Honestly the trouble we currently have and had in the forces with alcohol and drugs including Cannabis and we end up legalizing it in the forces is something we don't need.  Like was mentioned before with all the variables including strain, affecting everyone differently is not like having a beer at all. That being said once you are out have at er.

So by your reasoning, we should prohibit Alcohol as well.  Including off duty use.

We have implemented that assinine concept overseas, why not bring Here?

dileas

tess

[the 48th regulator]

As MM mentioned in his post, you can use a clock for alcohol, but THC works differently.  We have an 8 hours before DUTY, 12 hours before FLYING rule we follow.  Rigidly.  I can't see a CAF where SAR Techs, Clearance Divers, pilots and such are authorized to use this drug.

Canadian society at large...hey, do whatever is legal.  Same as the CAF, but as we see in the thread we have people doing it, people who know and are turning a blind eye.  Our rules are still rules.

I'll leave it in the hands of the CofC and their Legal and Medical advisors, and enforce whatever rules they come out with.  If its proven to be medically fit for flyers, I guess I'll have to decide it I want to keep on logging hours. 

My main concern, at this point, is the concept that people are turning the blind eye.  We have rules, we operate on discipline or the wheels start to come off.

I appreciate your quoting a Medic SME on this, but please provide tome a resource that indicates Cannabis use has increased any form of danger.

Pundits like to use the "Lack of research" excuse, however many countries have legalized it, so I am sure you can provide evidence that supports your post.  You are now delving into medical, so I am fair for asking you to provide back up to your statement. Maybe MM can help you.

dileas

tess

[Loachman]

That is why the onus is on the individual, not the system, to actually controll that.

Agreed, in the case of Aircrew and probably some other groups, but what of the average young Soldier?

For any significant flying incident or accident, blood and urine samples are taken. I and my crew did that three days/nights in a row in KAF, once for the loss of each Sperwer UAV (yup, three in a row - BAM-BAM-BAM; I was quite jittery for the next launch), even though the initial indications were mechanical failure (and backed up by the full investigations). I am quite sure that such testing is always in the back of each Aircrewman's mind, which is a good additional incentive to anybody who needs one.

As marijuana can show up in the blood for long periods after use, though, and the allowable blood levels proposed are apparently not good indications of impairment according to the interesting studies that you published in the other thread, how does one prove impairment? It's easy to determine alcoholic impairment, and it leaves the blood relatively quickly.

What about other drugs? Those that are non-addictive, reasonably safe (using alcohol as a benchmark, perhaps), and also leave the blood relatively quickly, may be acceptable some day.

For certain groups, until reliable means of assessing even minor impairment exist, no-tolerance measures - ie no presence in the blood whatsoever - are the most sensible.

[Chief Engineer]

So by your reasoning, we should prohibit Alcohol as well.  Including off duty use.

We have implemented that assinine concept overseas, why not bring Here?

dileas

tess

I thought we agreed not to comment on each others posts to keep the peace?

[the 48th regulator]

Agreed, in the case of Aircrew and probably some other groups, but what of the average young Soldier?

For any significant flying incident or accident, blood and urine samples are taken. I and my crew did that three days/nights in a row in KAF, once for the loss of each Sperwer UAV (yup, three in a row - BAM-BAM-BAM; I was quite jittery for the next launch), even though the initial indications were mechanical failure (and backed up by the full investigations). I am quite sure that such testing is always in the back of each Aircrewman's mind, which is a good additional incentive to anybody who needs one.

As marijuana can show up in the blood for long periods after use, though, and the allowable blood levels proposed are apparently not good indications of impairment according to the interesting studies that you published in the other thread, how does one prove impairment? It's easy to determine alcoholic impairment, and it leaves the blood relatively quickly.

What about other drugs? Those that are non-addictive, reasonably safe (using alcohol as a benchmark, perhaps), and also leave the blood relatively quickly, may be acceptable some day.

For certain groups, until reliable means of assessing even minor impairment exist, no-tolerance measures - ie no presence in the blood whatsoever - are the most sensible.

Very good point,

But the concept of zero content in blood, if we were to really abide by that, and use proper testing methods I can guess that 80% of the military would be dinged for self medication. 

What about the supplements that people use.  Over the counter medication.  Hell, some people are allergic to certain foods, which can cause impairment.  Do we now search for that in our Military Members?

I mean, the zero tolerance argument is cute, however is not really acceptable.  Traces of Cannabinoids in the system, does not always equal impairment.  Take CBD as an example.  Non Psychoactive.  However with your argument, it would be banned.  Redbull causes more to impair, in fact your normal coffee does.

This reminds me of the Seinfeld episode about Poppy Seed Bagels....

dileas

tess

[the 48th regulator]

I thought we agreed not to comment on each others posts to keep the peace?

I thought we agreed not to make it personal. 

I didn not give you a carte blanche to post assinine theories, and not be challenged.  Sorry for hurting your raw feelings.  That was not my intent.

Either way, I disagreed with you, and kept it civil.  What are you going to do now?  Rally troops to attack my milpoints like in the past??  Put me on warning so I can't post??

dileas

tess

[Eye In The Sky]

I appreciate your quoting a Medic SME on this, but please provide tome a resource that indicates Cannabis use has increased any form of danger.

Pundits like to use the "Lack of research" excuse, however many countries have legalized it, so I am sure you can provide evidence that supports your post.  You are now delving into medical, so I am fair for asking you to provide back up to your statement. Maybe MM can help you.

dileas

tess

I am not a Medical person, however I am somewhat aware of that any substance can affect a person differently at altitude, or in a pressure environment (divers) differently.  Things people can take without seeing a MO, I have to see a Flt Surgeon for, because despite being pressurized, my aircraft doesn't operate at a cabin altitude of *surface* when I am transitting at FLO 260, as an example.  I know this because of my AMT (Aeromedical Training) course and briefings from flight surgeons.  I can't take any OTC medication / self medicate for a cold if I am flying, as an example, because the product I get at Lawtons might not work out so well at altitude;  or with something else I might be taking (I take Aerius and Flonaise regularly, prescribed by a Flt Srgn).  I rely on medical professionals to determine what I can or can't take and fly now, so I'll do the same with this and then enforce whatever the rules might be in the future.  Same as I would now for the 12 hours bottle to throttle for booze.

MM already gave a basic overview of the difference between alcohol and THC, and the difference in how the body handles them.  I'll leave it to the medical people to go further into detail, they are the SMEs and I rely on them to tell me what I can and can't do or take, so that I am not a thud in the air who endangers lives and airframes.

The issue, as I said, is the whole "turn a blind eye" aspect.  We have rules, and they are supposed to be followed.  Full stop.  What is my reference about prohibited drug use being bad for CAF members?  I already posted it, and its the only one that really counts for CAF members.  Everything else..opinion.  This is policy.  Until weed is deemed legal, its still prohibited for use by CAF members (without medical prescription which will likely result in significant MELs) and THAT is what counts more than my, or your, opinion.  If its determined safe and legal, then it is and it then is a non-issue.  Right now, to my knowledge, that isn't the case.  So it is not ok to use and lace the boots up...at this time.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5019-3.page

prohibited drug use
 
any use of drugs contrary to QR&O article 20.04, Prohibition.

20.04 - PROHIBITION

No officer or non-commissioned member shall use any drug unless:
a.the member is authorized to use the drug by a qualified medical or dental practitioner for the purposes of medical treatment or dental care;
b.the drug is contained in a non-prescription medication used by the member in accordance with the instructions accompanying the medication; or
c.the member is required to use the drug in the course of military duties.

(G)

NOTES

(A) Possession, possession for purpose of trafficking, trafficking, importing, exporting, manufacturing and cultivating certain drugs constitute offences contrary to federal legislation such as the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. These activities are included in the phrase "other involvement with drugs" which appears in articles 20.05 (Education) and 20.19 (Treatment and Rehabilitation). (1 September 1999)

(B) This regulation does not authorize a military authority to order or permit the use of a drug by a member when that use, or possession of the drug, is prohibited by another law.

(C) (1 September 1999)




I am more concerned with the issue of (1) the rules DO prohibit it now and (2) people are turning a blind eye to the rules.   Whether I agree with those rules, or not, as a Snr NCO, isn't relevant.  I get paid to enforce the ones that exist.  Of all the ones I concern myself with now, the 12 hours bottle to throttle would be one of the top ones when flying is involved.

Great topic and discussion so far, hope this one doesn't swirl to a lock.

[the 48th regulator]

I am not a Medical person, however I am somewhat aware of that any substance can affect a person differently at altitude, or in a pressure environment (divers) differently.  Things people can take without seeing a MO, I have to see a Flt Surgeon for, because despite being pressurized, my aircraft doesn't operate at a cabin altitude of *surface* when I am transitting at FLO 260, as an example.  I know this because of my AMT (Aeromedical Training) course and briefings from flight surgeons.  I can't take any OTC medication / self medicate for a cold if I am flying, as an example, because the product I get at Lawtons might not work out so well at altitude;  or with something else I might be taking (I take Aerius and Flonaise regularly, prescribed by a Flt Srgn).

MM already gave a basic overview of the difference between alcohol and THC, and the difference in how the body handles them.  I'll leave it to the medical people to go further into detail, they are the SMEs and I rely on them to tell me what I can and can't do or take, so that I am not a thud in the air who endangers lives and airframes.

The issue, as I said, is the whole "turn a blind eye" aspect.  We have rules, and they are supposed to be followed.  Full stop.  What is my reference about prohibited drug use being bad for CAF members?  I already posted it, and its the only one that really counts for CAF members.  Everything else..opinion.  This is policy.  Until weed is deemed legal, its still prohibited for use by CAF members (without medical prescription which will likely result in significant MELs) and THAT is what counts more than my, or your, opinion.  If its determined safe and legal, then it is and it then is a non-issue.  Right now, to my knowledge, that isn't the case.  So it is not ok to use and lace the boots up...at this time.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5019-3.page

prohibited drug use
 
any use of drugs contrary to QR&O article 20.04, Prohibition.

20.04 - PROHIBITION

No officer or non-commissioned member shall use any drug unless:
a.the member is authorized to use the drug by a qualified medical or dental practitioner for the purposes of medical treatment or dental care;
b.the drug is contained in a non-prescription medication used by the member in accordance with the instructions accompanying the medication; or
c.the member is required to use the drug in the course of military duties.

(G)

NOTES

(A) Possession, possession for purpose of trafficking, trafficking, importing, exporting, manufacturing and cultivating certain drugs constitute offences contrary to federal legislation such as the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. These activities are included in the phrase "other involvement with drugs" which appears in articles 20.05 (Education) and 20.19 (Treatment and Rehabilitation). (1 September 1999)

(B) This regulation does not authorize a military authority to order or permit the use of a drug by a member when that use, or possession of the drug, is prohibited by another law.

(C) (1 September 1999)

Can you direct me to one investigation of an accident within CAF, that was attributed to an intoxicant being in the system of any of the victims.

We have had many, which have caused death and injuires.

dileas

tess

[Eye In The Sky]

Relevance?  Rules and regulations are supposed to be followed.  A disciplined force, etc.  It is the military still, right?

I think we are focusing on different issues about legalized pot use in the CAF...yours being it is fine and could be permitted, mine being *I agree, it could be and might be*m but that isn't the case now and we need to operate of the "now" rules.

[Chief Engineer]

I thought we agreed not to make it personal. 

I didn not give you a carte blanche to post assinine theories, and not be challenged.  Sorry for hurting your raw feelings.  That was not my intent.

Either way, I disagreed with you, and kept it civil.  What are you going to do now?  Rally troops to attack my milpoints like in the past??  Put me on warning so I can't post??

dileas

tess

Quote from: Chief Stoker on April 26, 2017, 17:41:32

Its obvious we'll never agree in regards to cannabis use. How about to keep the peace I won't comment on your posts and you don't comment on mine. Will that be ok?


I am happy with that.  No need for us to constantly bicker.

dileas

tess

[the 48th regulator]

Quote from: Chief Stoker on April 26, 2017, 17:41:32

Its obvious we'll never agree in regards to cannabis use. How about to keep the peace I won't comment on your posts and you don't comment on mine. Will that be ok?


I am happy with that.  No need for us to constantly bicker.

dileas

tess

Seen,

No more interaction then.  Remember, this is forever.

This includes your dirty Milpoint deduction tricks, capisce?


dileas

tess

[the 48th regulator]

Relevance?  Rules and regulations are supposed to be followed.  A disciplined force, etc.  It is the military still, right?

I think we are focusing on different issues about legalized pot use in the CAF...yours being it is fine and could be permitted, mine being *I agree, it could be and might be*m but that isn't the case now and we need to operate of the "now" rules.

Ok,

I am not trying to attack you, but that post was the most convusing of all. This thread is about legalizing Cannabis Recreationally, and whther it is ok for CAF members to use it.  We are not talking about now, although it did bleed through with Altair's post.

Let's keep on topic, as I feel you are the one straying, not me.

dileas

tess

[Eye In The Sky]

Unless I missed something, the thread topic is Legal Cannabis use in the CAF.  I'd say we're both on topic. 

 

[the 48th regulator]

Unless I missed something, the thread topic is Legal Cannabis use in the CAF.  I'd say we're both on topic. 

 

Yes....We....Are..... 

Did that just happen, or did I miss something?

dileas

tess