Author Topic: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0  (Read 157954 times)

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Offline Haggis

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1225 on: August 02, 2020, 14:52:31 »
And a steady stream of shooting spree violence. What really doesn’t resonate with them is that the violence is rarely caused by licensed gun owners.

Shooting "sprees" in Canada are exceedingly rare. The constant use by anti-gun activists of foreign statistics and criminal acts to advance a domestic agenda is simply dishonest.  Our firearms laws are vastly different than even the strictest of those of our southern neighbours.  The anti-gun movement is counting on Joe and Josephine Canada to not distinguish between the two.

When the Coalition for Gun Control posits to the media that lawful gun owners are more of a deadly threat to Canadian society than criminals because we practice and become proficient with out firearms,  then you know the argument has abandoned fact entirely.

Some Australian member here could likely clarify some points and further comment on their current system which appears to be pretty extreme. I don't think that Canada is intent on going 'there'.

We are closer to 'there' than I think you realize.  Since the initial ban on May 1st, the RCMP have since banned an additional several hundred firearm models without any check or balance.  The promised municipal handgun ban, which I expect to become a national ban for reasons I stated earlier, will be tabled when the House sits this this Fall. 'There' is just awaiting the next election.
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Offline suffolkowner

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1226 on: August 02, 2020, 14:55:13 »
Fair enough Suffolk. The link was meant as my attempt to place the Liberal party on the political spectrum. So would you place them as left of center? And would you place the CPC as right of center?

The whole point of the exercise is a challenge to show that the left is tradionally gun control throughout the world.

As for Australia, I don't know if it was the left or the right that brough in the extreme measures on gun control because I don't know where all of their political parties stand. I did note however that they voted recently to keep in place some gun control measures by a margin of 33 to 25.

Some Australian member here could likely clarify some points and further comment on their current system which appears to be pretty extreme. I don't think that Canada is intent on going 'there'.

I tend to view the left-right dichotomy like all in that they are not true representations of reality but to be judged more on their usefulness. Nonetheless, in my mind the current Liberal party is a little too far to the left and the current Conservative party a little too far to the right to offer reasonable alternatives for my voting preferences.

I have quite a few friends who came from Eastern Europe or their families did and they for sure correlate gun rights and the lack thereof with leftist ideology and thus are very outspoken on the issue.

As far as Australia goes they may have passed restrictive gun laws but how many actually follow them. I know there was a reduction in mass shootings there but I'm not sure what all the factors could be


Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1227 on: August 02, 2020, 15:07:14 »
I've seen a couple comments on Reddit here and there about mass filings of Sec.74 challenges with the coincidental (or purposeful) result of tying up the already overburdened court system causing actual violent criminals to be released under the Jordan clause I believe it's called (tried under reasonable times).

One hell of a way to protest.
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Offline Haggis

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1228 on: August 02, 2020, 15:43:47 »
I've seen a couple comments on Reddit here and there about mass filings of Sec.74 challenges with the coincidental (or purposeful) result of tying up the already overburdened court system causing actual violent criminals to be released under the Jordan clause I believe it's called (tried under reasonable times).

Those cases on the docket now, ahead of s. 74 filings, will be heard first.  The risk is those that come after a mass of s. 74 filings may cause more serious criminal cases to be thrown out under s. 11(b) of the Charter.

There is still the question of if s.74 appeals are of any use.  The RCMP website now states that the now nullified registration certificates were the result in a change of legislation and not the result of a Registrar's decision, which is the basis for a s. 74 review.  The inference here is that a s.74 challenge cannot be mounted.
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Offline Donald H

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1229 on: August 03, 2020, 11:35:38 »
You're right, there is no way such a broad brush could be 100% accurate if you're going to break down to individual MPs. If the criteria is that every individual MP must be racist for a party to be racist, you'd be right, but I would argue that's a pretty narrow definition.


Agreed! It's not 100% accurate to say that the Conservative MP's are racists and it's not accurate to say that the Liberal party MP's want to take away people's guns.

It might be 10% accurate in both cases.

And the real question is on what % of the Canadian people want  some  level of gun control. That which amounts to sensible and necessary is the question.

Do you want to get down to specifics with me? I wouldn't touch Canada's handgun laws at all.

Both parties are likely pretty well confident that they can play politics with the issue now and that's far more important then anything else. Very similar to how Trump plays politics with racism in the US. The latter is a point that's being debated on another thread.

Offline Haggis

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1230 on: August 03, 2020, 13:56:55 »
Agreed! It's not 100% accurate to say that the Conservative MP's are racists and it's not accurate to say that the Liberal party MP's want to take away people's guns.
  The Liberal Party has as it's stated aim, since at least 1994, to disarm the Canadian public.

"I came to Ottawa with the firm belief that the only people in this country who should have guns are police officers and soldiers." and "Protection of life is not a legitimate use for a firearm in this country, sir. Not!  That is expressly ruled out"  Allan Rock, Liberal Justice Minister, 1994.

Then, let's look at what Liberal Senator Sharon Carstairs said in 1996: "C68 has little to do with gun control or crime control but is the first step necessary to begin the social reengineering of Canada."

Liberal Foreign Affairs Minister Lloyd Axworthy had this to say in 1998:  "Canada will be one of the first unarmed countries in the world." and "Disarming the Canadian public is part of the new humanitarian social agenda."

Finally, Liberal Justice Minister Ann McLelland came out strongly in favour of any Canadian using firearms for self defence, and, in particular, against concealed carry of any type.  (McLelland had been hand-picked to participate in the Nova Scotia mass killing independent review but withdrew when it became a public inquiry.)

These views were supported by the party and the PM.

And the real question is on what % of the Canadian people want  some  level of gun control. That which amounts to sensible and necessary is the question.

Depends on who you ask.  Most Canadians are quite uninformed on what the current laws are regarding licencing, magazine capacity and storage regulations.  In fact many gun owners only know the laws pertaining to the specific firearm(s) they own.  Non-restricted owners and the general public would be shocked to know exactly what is required to legally possess and use a handgun in Canada

Our own PM publicly stated that you could buy a gun in Canada without having to show a licence (PAL).  While I'm sure he was inferring that his statement applied only to illegal gun sales, he deliberately left that fact out.  Again, that's dishonest, but not surprising.
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1231 on: August 04, 2020, 11:02:33 »
Agreed! It's not 100% accurate to say that the Conservative MP's are racists and it's not accurate to say that the Liberal party MP's want to take away people's guns.

It might be 10% accurate in both cases.

I think you missed the point of my post, or cherry-picked a quote to take out of context.

It may not be 100% accurate to say that every Liberal MP's thoughts toward firearm ownership is that we (law-abiding firearm owners) are all a bunch of criminals / criminals-in-waiting / can't be trusted / other unfair and hostile sentiments... but that alone doesn't defeat the assertion that the Liberal Party thinks we are all a bunch of criminals / criminals-in-waiting / can't be trusted / other unfair and hostile sentiments...

It's actually just setting a fairly ridiculously high bar for that assertion... you can't get 100% of 100+ people on anything.
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Offline Donald H

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1232 on: August 04, 2020, 13:29:00 »
I think you missed the point of my post, or cherry-picked a quote to take out of context.

No, I didn't miss your point and I didn't cherry pick. I'm fully aware of your opinion "that the Liberal Party thinks we are all a bunch of criminals / criminals-in-waiting / can't be trusted / other unfair and hostile sentiments..."

Offline Haggis

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1233 on: August 04, 2020, 15:47:58 »
After what happened publicly to JWR, Jane Philpot and Celina Caesar-Chavannes when they drew the PM's ire, I doubt any Liberal MP would even privately break ranks with the PM on the firearms issue. This is not a big enough hill for them to die on.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1234 on: August 04, 2020, 17:01:02 »
After what happened publicly to JWR, Jane Philpot and Celina Caesar-Chavannes when they drew the PM's ire, I doubt any Liberal MP would even privately break ranks with the PM on the firearms issue. This is not a big enough hill for them to die on.

Exactly.

Liberal MPs can secretly love AR15s and love shooting as much as they want, the Liberal party is anti-firearm which means the MPs are effectively anti-firearm. They throw out comments about supporting farmers and legal gun owners but that's as believable as Justin Trudeau saying he won't violate the ethics act again.
MP's know full well what will happen if they go against the PM's wishes.

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Offline Haggis

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1235 on: August 04, 2020, 20:26:56 »


Exactly.

Liberal MPs can secretly love AR15s and love shooting as much as they want, the Liberal party is anti-firearm which means the MPs are effectively anti-firearm......
MP's know full well what will happen if they go against the PM's wishes.

Which is why maintaining the integrity of rhe party image is crucial. When was the last time anyone saw a photo of a Liberal MP with a handgun or scary black rifle taken since Trudeau came to power?

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Offline shawn5o

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1236 on: August 06, 2020, 14:11:49 »
You could be right, but you also could be wrong. There's a way of finding out! If we take the accepted priorities of both the left and the right we should find some indications of just what their respective priorities are on nearly all issues.

If the US is the most rightist country in the world then it would be fair to say that they represent extremism on gun ownership.

As for the most anti-gun country in the world, what country would that be and where does that country fit on the political spectrum? And is that country the extreme left? I don't think so but I could be wrong.

As a wild guess, Australia may be one of the most anti-gun countries.

Here's my contribution to represent the priorities of the left: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO8OxfFiVv8

prohibition: In a few countries, including Cambodia, Eritrea, and the Solomon Islands, ownership of firearms is completely prohibited.
(source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation)
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