Author Topic: Army Is Looking to SMG's  (Read 5331 times)

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Offline medicineman

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Re: Army Is Looking to SMG's
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2018, 23:01:28 »
I seem to recall there was a 9mm variant of the M4 made back in the 80's or 90's wasn't there?  Basically cut down barrel, same sort of receiver but rebored for 9mm - had a straight 30 rd mag.

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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Army Is Looking to SMG's
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2018, 23:11:18 »
. . .  a 9mm variant of the M4 made back in the 80's or 90's . . . ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_9mm_SMG
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Army Is Looking to SMG's
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2018, 23:26:40 »
I have a feeling this is one of those "look I'm doing something" things.

I thought the US moved away from the whole PDW fad.  Improvements  to 9mm ammo closed the gap with other pistol rounds but its still no 5.56 replacement. I can't conceive something this platform would do for their regular forces that a short 5.56 platform wouldn't do.

With a CSS style stock and  short barrel you can get an AR15 practically down the size of an mp5.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 06:45:34 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline medicineman

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Re: Army Is Looking to SMG's
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2018, 23:29:06 »
MM

Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Army Is Looking to SMG's
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2018, 16:15:01 »
I have a feeling this is one of those "look I'm doing something" things.

I thought the US moved away from the whole PDW fad.  Improvements  to 9mm ammo closed the gap with other pistol rounds but its still no 5.56 replacement. I can't conceive something this platform would do for their regular forces that a short 5.56 platform wouldn't do.

With a CSS style stock and  short barrel you can get an AR15 practically down the size of an mp5.

Except that the Army seems to be of the opinion the carbines are only for high-speed special types...oh, and tankers, of course. Due to Close operating confines, CSS and folks like aircrew should also have carbines, notwithstanding some from those two groups who think they should have long barrels to reach out to 600m “if need be.” ::)

If the goal is to have a volume of subsonic lead coming from a modified dynamic iso shooting position, then things like the Uzi are most likely the way to go....or MAC-10?

G2G

Offline Colin P

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Re: Army Is Looking to SMG's
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2018, 23:57:46 »
:nod:

Nothing quite like us hauling a C1 around at the short trail, getting screamed at by Jon Vance.  #goodtimes


Back on-thread(-ish), the Sterling had a grouping wider than a sawed-off Remmy 870! ;D

Fully on-thread, go with the pro...the Uzi Pro.

I found them to be quite accurate, with some proper training and practice. The big issue is the lag between squeezing the trigger and the bang as the bolt travels forward to strip off a round and ignite it as it is going fully into the chamber. This lag lets people with no training or understanding, express their full ability to get grip, flinch and trigger pull wrong.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 10:15:05 by Colin P »

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Army Is Looking to SMG's
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2018, 00:38:30 »
An MP5 is as close to a laser gun as I'll ever fire. That accurate, IMHO, at close range.

However, it weighs about 20lbs (OK, not really, but it's heavy).

Good luck to them. The confusing ammo mix in the platoon might not be an issue.
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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Army Is Looking to SMG's
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2018, 20:29:23 »
The sten gun or a modern version might be good for tankers and vehicle drivers.

Offline CountDC

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Re: Army Is Looking to SMG's
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2018, 12:02:16 »
oh goody, the fun SMG.  Special request on this - get one that can be fired from either shoulder. 

Is there really any value to an in close spray and pray? Personally if I had to pick between the SMG and C7 the 7 wins.  Longer range, better punch and I can still spray and pray if I want.  Give me a folding stock and not much difference in size.  Maybe memory fogging over time but I think the SMG may have weighed a bit more too.

Now the FN was a fun time.  With a cigarette pack you could turn your 1 into a 2 and throw off the enemy force.  Not really recommended on the range with live ammo at the standing position.   
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Army Is Looking to SMG's
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2018, 13:19:35 »
The C7 needs the stock for the buffer and spring, there are SMG versions of the AR. Problem is that blowback systems are limited in which calibre you can use. .40cal is about the safe max, .357 Sig generally is very hard on the guns. If you want effectiveness in a pistol calibre with some body armour penetration, go with 7.62x25 with a modern bullet. More terminal effect than 5.7 from my reading.

Offline NinerSix

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Re: Army Is Looking to SMG's
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2018, 20:49:53 »
The reasonable option would have been a 10"-11" 5.56 carbine. I suspect that the pointy heads would loath to introduce something like this, as it would end up in "the wrong hands", ie the army at large. Making it 9mm would prevent it from making it's way to the general infantry. I'm out now, but I remember leadership making waves about us using the C8, even though it was part of our establishment.
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Offline medicineman

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Re: Army Is Looking to SMG's
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2018, 11:52:23 »
Now the FN was a fun time.  With a cigarette pack you could turn your 1 into a 2 and throw off the enemy force.  Not really recommended on the range with live ammo at the standing position.   

My Dad tells me he saw someone warp a barrel doing that on the range...there are/were versions of the FAL (read C1/L1) that were marketed as auto capable - the para versions were also shorter barreled and had folding stocks.  Still, I'd hate to try firing something like that at cyclic rate from the standing unsupported with much hope of hitting anything after the first shot.

I didn't mind the old C1 "Go Fast Gun", but I'm right handed.  In close quarters, I found the suicide mag made handling easier - making it a 15 rd instead of 10 I think would be smarter and take up negligibly more room.  The thing I really hated about that gun was it used to seek out and snag any cam net within 25 sq m - a modern version should have a different cocking handle...oh yeah, the sling was too long for doing litter drills - we used to routinely hit people in the head with them if we didn't switch sides in the low slung position.

MM
MM

Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Army Is Looking to SMG's
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2018, 13:08:48 »
I didn't mind the old C1 "Go Fast Gun", but I'm right handed.  In close quarters, I found the suicide mag made handling easier - making it a 15 rd instead of 10 I think would be smarter and take up negligibly more room.  The thing I really hated about that gun was it used to seek out and snag any cam net within 25 sq m - a modern version should have a different cocking handle...oh yeah, the sling was too long for doing litter drills - we used to routinely hit people in the head with them if we didn't switch sides in the low slung position.


Yeah, the age old complaint that it was so small that it was difficult to keep from swinging around, the obvious solution (well, the one I heard many times from junior ranks) was to issue pistols to all medics.  One proposed solution (we had a guy who used to do a little canvas sewing who did one up) was to have a "holster" for the SMG.  Actually, it was more a scabbard on the belt that kept the weapon close to the body and stopped it from swinging around. A good idea but never authorized nor did it catch on enough for individuals to pay for their own webbing modifications.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Army Is Looking to SMG's
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2018, 13:45:35 »
The MP7 is a good option. The ammo is designed to defeat body armour:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_MP7
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Offline medicineman

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Re: Army Is Looking to SMG's
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2018, 14:05:35 »
Yeah, the age old complaint that it was so small that it was difficult to keep from swinging around, the obvious solution (well, the one I heard many times from junior ranks) was to issue pistols to all medics.  One proposed solution (we had a guy who used to do a little canvas sewing who did one up) was to have a "holster" for the SMG.  Actually, it was more a scabbard on the belt that kept the weapon close to the body and stopped it from swinging around. A good idea but never authorized nor did it catch on enough for individuals to pay for their own webbing modifications.
I’ve seen holsters/scabbards that were made much like you described - but only really worked with the suicide mags


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MM

Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Army Is Looking to SMG's
« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2018, 11:55:20 »

Offline Brihard

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Re: Army Is Looking to SMG's
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2018, 23:55:15 »
Colt Canada produces an 11.6” version of its latest iteration in the C7/C8 family. If it’s really felt that something that compact is needed, it’s a viable option. I just don’t see pistol calibers as being a responsible or effective choice anymore for a primary weapon. Something already familiar in its handling, and using the existing ammunition and even magazines adds little to the logistical picture in the grand scheme of things.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Army Is Looking to SMG's
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2018, 16:20:16 »
Colt Canada produces an 11.6” version of its latest iteration in the C7/C8 family. If it’s really felt that something that compact is needed, it’s a viable option. I just don’t see pistol calibers as being a responsible or effective choice anymore for a primary weapon. Something already familiar in its handling, and using the existing ammunition and even magazines adds little to the logistical picture in the grand scheme of things.

But what about the LCF? :)

"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Army Is Looking to SMG's
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2018, 17:27:43 »
No worries. The way our procurment system is, we'll have the equivelent of a flintlock on a modern battlefield. Everyone will be using lazers about the time we introduce our 9mm SMG, 20 years from now.
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