Author Topic: Saudi Arabia expels Canadian ambassador for urging release of activists  (Read 15610 times)

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Online Colin P

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Everything about this government is about virtue signalling, it's their primary goal in order to garner votes with certain select voters. There is a lot of concern that they just made things worse for the detainees and lengthened their imprisonment.

Offline Fishbone Jones

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I think we already have plenty of terms and phrases used to describe making a statement without being able to back it up.

But using the term "virtue signalling" is more than that. In common usage, that term clearly voices at least some opposition to a given moral statement
.

You mean like the Saudi's had for our statement on them?
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Offline Til.Valhall

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Everything about this every government ever, is about virtue signalling, it's their primary goal in order to garner votes with certain select voters.

Online Colin P

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Actually no, the CPC was not terribly interested in it. Their interest was in reducing the size of government, Harper was critical enough of China to make the relationship frosty, but not by signalling.

Offline Til.Valhall

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Actually no, the CPC was not terribly interested in it. Their interest was in reducing the size of government, Harper was critical enough of China to make the relationship frosty, but not by signalling.

Without getting too far in the weeds, the the CPC was accused of dog-whistling quite often. Another similar term. Same idea but more subtle. Quite often used to dismiss opposing groups on moral grounds.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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My question in this whole affair is: what was the stated goal of the tweet? To secure the release of the Saudi prisoners?

If so, did it work?

If it didn't work, was it effective diplomacy?


Online Remius

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My question in this whole affair is: what was the stated goal of the tweet? To secure the release of the Saudi prisoners?

If so, did it work?

If it didn't work, was it effective diplomacy?

Maybe, as expressed in this opinion piece, it served to show the world KSA's true colours. 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/12/saudi-arabia-spat-canada-mohammed-bin-salman-true-colours
Optio

Online Colin P

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Since the majority of government are more or less authoritarian, I don't think any needed to be shown their true colours, in fact most don't care. Anyone not understanding KSA current governance by this time has to be dumb and blind.

Offline Lumber

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Since the majority of government are more or less authoritarian, I don't think any needed to be shown their true colours, in fact most don't care. Anyone not understanding KSA current governance by this time has to be dumb and blind ignorant and happy.

Fixed that for you.
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Offline Thucydides

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Interesting article, which reinforces the idea of all this being a virtue circling party by the Liberals. If the KSA is bad (which I think we all grant) then why on earth is the government funding an organizations which indoctrinates children into becoming terrorists? I've yet to see any tweets about that, have you?

https://www.israpundit.org/canadas-middle-east-policy-is-gods-vengeance-on-logic/

I would suggest having principles and internal consistency will serve to prevent a lot of these things happening to Canada going forward.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Lumber

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The problem with having principles and internal consistency is scale and limited resources (and by resources I mean willpower and clout).

I think if we only treated with countries who's current regimes have principles that met our litmus test for "moral and virtuous" then there'd be very VERY few countries in the world that we actually did business with.

So, why did we poke specifically KSA on this specific issue? I kind of agree that with KSA that we should stay out of their internal affairs, because we don't have the resources or energy to be the world's moral compass. If you're going to stick your nose where it doesn't belong, then you should go full tilt and not be hypocritical about it.
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Maybe, as expressed in this opinion piece, it served to show the world KSA's true colours. 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/12/saudi-arabia-spat-canada-mohammed-bin-salman-true-colours

Ah. Got it. So Raif Badawi just gets to be collateral damage in all this, as Canada shows the world how evil the KSA monarchy is.

Too bad for her, huh?

Online Remius

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Ah. Got it. So Raif Badawi just gets to be collateral damage in all this, as Canada shows the world how evil the KSA monarchy is.

Too bad for her, huh?

How is it collateral? Wasn't he jailed back in 2012?
Optio

Offline Thucydides

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How is it collateral? Wasn't he jailed back in 2012?

An other interesting factoid. What is different between then and now? You would think this would have been raised in 2015 but nothing until now. So another question to ask is "why not?"
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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How is it collateral? Wasn't he jailed back in 2012?

Whoops!  :whistle:

Offline Lumber

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Because they just jailed his sister.
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

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Offline PuckChaser

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Because they just jailed his sister.

Who cares? If the Trudeau Liberals actually gave a damn about the arrest of women's rights activists, where is the outrage from the following arrests I found in 30 seconds on Google?

https://www.iranhumanrights.org/2016/11/womens-rights-activist-arrested/
https://www.iol.co.za/news/africa/rwandan-activist-arrested-for-allegedly-challenging-government-11357704
https://www.indexoncensorship.org/2017/07/bahrain-activist-arrested-torture/
https://www.loc.gov/law/foreign-news/article/sudan-women-arrested-for-wearing-pants-are-released/
https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/9/16897048/metoo-china-feminism-activism

Are the Liberals more scared of Rwanda, Sudan, Bahrain, Iran and China than they are of Saudi Arabia? Or do they just pick and choose the outrage to further a narrative and virtue signal  for their domestic political audience? Nobody would care if they were consistent (they would probably be more applauded for that consistency), but it seems they pick and choose who and what to be outraged about.

Offline Lumber

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Who cares?

Take it easy Puck; I was merely answering the question "why did this happen now and not in 2012 when he was arrested." That's literally all.
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

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Offline PuckChaser

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Take it easy Puck; I was merely answering the question "why did this happen now and not in 2012 when he was arrested." That's literally all.

I'm not targeting you, but the comment. Who cares if his sister was jailed? He's not a Canadian citizen, she's not a Canadian citizen, and his wife only became a citizen a month ago.

Offline beirnini

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The KSA is doing things to advance their interests, and they likely see Canada's actions in a sinister light because of the way the Liberal government has been consorting with a known arm of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Yes, preserving and maintaining their monarchy. See above. Got it long ago without needling any explication, thanks. The question still remains why is that "permanent interest" so eminently understandable, relatable, rational and excusable, i.e. provokes sympathy, but the interest supported and defended in the tweet - due process - is dismissable with "virtue signalling".  Cynicism, partisan score-taking, and semi-intellectualizing only goes so far before one has to wonder.
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No, the Liberals stepped into this one on their own.
Yes, and also nobody asked for or expected this fight. But now that it's upon us I would like to think we as Canadians, if not members of the CAF, are more principled than a den of blades.

Offline Cloud Cover

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Oh come on, of all the principles that "Canadians" might have, replacing due process in Saudi Arabia with something else, is not one of them.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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The problem with having principles and internal consistency is scale and limited resources (and by resources I mean willpower and clout).

I think if we only treated with countries who's current regimes have principles that met our litmus test for "moral and virtuous" then there'd be very VERY few countries in the world that we actually did business with.

So, why did we poke specifically KSA on this specific issue? I kind of agree that with KSA that we should stay out of their internal affairs, because we don't have the resources or energy to be the world's moral compass. If you're going to stick your nose where it doesn't belong, then you should go full tilt and not be hypocritical about it.

My issue with this entire spat with Saudi Arabia is how it was handled via Twittersphere as opposed to proper diplomatic channels.  I think we’ve done Samara Badawi a great disservice with the rout we’ve taken which is 100% for domestic political consumption as opposed to actually helping the jailed activists. 

Offline Lumber

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I'm not targeting you, but the comment. Who cares if his sister was jailed? He's not a Canadian citizen, she's not a Canadian citizen, and his wife only became a citizen a month ago.

Roger roger.  :salut:

Or do they just pick and choose the outrage to further a narrative and virtue signal  for their domestic political audience?

This. Politics in this age is highly reactionary, and suffers from long term memory loss.
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower

Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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This. Politics in this age is highly reactionary, and suffers from long term memory loss.

Which is why I mostly ignore politics now.  I’m completely apathetic to the politics in Canada and elsewhere atm. 

Offline Lumber

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Perhaps it was wrong for major government institutions to join the information age and social media. I understand why they did it; if everyone is using twitter and facebook, then in order to seem relevant, you need act in kind. How can you reach your constituents if you’re using mediums that your constituents no longer use (i.e. news paper, cable, radio)?

Perhaps what has happened is that government institutions have become infected by the same rot that plagues larger society; that is that social media and access to instant information has created a culture that is reactionary, unforgiving, short sighted, ignorant and judgemental. By adopting the use of social media for communication and every day business, they thought they were merely being progressive and reaching their constituents at their level.

They thought that by using proper grammar, spelling, and avoiding ad hominem attacks that they could participate in social media in a mature and professional way, and avoid the toxicity that plagues the general public. What they failed to realize is that merely participating is enough to alter the fundamental mindset of how they perform politics.

Or maybe not; this is all conjecture.

Perhaps government institutions (and by this I include the CAF), should take a step back and go back to traditional means. Have official government websites with official government bulletins and communiques that have no social media feeds attached to them. If people want more info, then make them work for it.
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower

Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!