Topic: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18

[runormal]

Do we need to shave everyday?  That’s what most people want to know. 

Why can’t they just say “you don’t need to shave everyday”?

This shave and restart stuff is nonsense.

As far as I understand the policy, you need to clean up the neck and cheeks every day, even if you have the beard or are in the process of growing it.  So doesn't that itself close the loophole around anyone saying that "they are now growing a beard", even if they have no intention of doing so?.

[ballz]

Something I've always wondered. Where does all this crap start?

It starts where accountability stops...

So is it really coming from Commanders/COs or is it starting with the CWO and no one is stopping them when things get out of hand?

Each place will be different. In some places it will be a unit CO or higher level Commander, in others it will be a CWO or MWO who is not being corrected. In either case, it's the fault of the officer.

[Quirky]

Do we need to shave everyday?  That’s what most people want to know. 

Why can’t they just say “you don’t need to shave everyday”?

This shave and restart stuff is nonsense.

No it is, the canforgen doesn’t specify a minimal growth length. You can restart your beard anytime you want, even if that means shaving every other day. We were instructed to follow the canforgen and current beard regs, meaning you must shave your neck and cheek bones everyday. The rest is up to you. I have no intention to grow a beard but it’s nice to know that I can go between days on really cold, dry days. This doesn’t affect my ability to do my job, people who object to stubble are just dinosaurs who are the exact reason why the CF can’t recruit/retain people. 

[cld617]

This doesn’t affect my ability to do my job, people who object to stubble are just dinosaurs who are the exact reason why the CF can’t recruit/retain people.

"something something discipline, or lack thereof if the troops don't shave." - Undisciplined CO/RSM/CWO ignoring direction from higher authority

[Lumber]

As far as I understand the policy, you need to clean up the neck and cheeks every day, even if you have the beard or are in the process of growing it.  So doesn't that itself close the loophole around anyone saying that "they are now growing a beard", even if they have no intention of doing so?.

That's funny because when I was growing an actual beard under the old policy, I didn't shave the neck and cheeks everyday.

[Bird_Gunner45]

That's funny because when I was growing an actual beard under the old policy, I didn't shave the neck and cheeks everyday.

The policy is clear so your CoC ought to have made you follow it. It's the same as the guys who had shave chits but never trimmed so they were out of standard.

[Good2Golf]

It starts where accountability stops...
...
Each place will be different. In some places it will be a unit CO or higher level Commander, in others it will be a CWO or MWO who is not being corrected. In either case, it's the fault of the officer.

This.


Regards
G2G

[TrunkMonkey315]

That's funny because when I was growing an actual beard under the old policy, I didn't shave the neck and cheeks everyday.

Once a week, maybe twice I'll clean it up.

[Eye In The Sky]

The policy is clear so your CoC ought to have made you follow it. It's the same as the guys who had shave chits but never trimmed so they were out of standard.

Direction where I hang my hat was those with medical chits were not permitted to shave the neck and cheeks because they were on a no shave chit. 

[Pusser]

No it is, the canforgen doesn’t specify a minimal growth length. You can restart your beard anytime you want, even if that means shaving every other day. We were instructed to follow the canforgen and current beard regs, meaning you must shave your neck and cheek bones everyday. The rest is up to you. I have no intention to grow a beard but it’s nice to know that I can go between days on really cold, dry days. This doesn’t affect my ability to do my job, people who object to stubble are just dinosaurs who are the exact reason why the CF can’t recruit/retain people.

Wow!  What a weasel approach.  The intent of the new policy is to allow everyone the opportunity to grow a beard if they so choose, not provide an excuse to neglect personal grooming if you don't feel like it today.  If you want to grow a beard, then grow a beard, but don't game the system.  There's no excuse for looking scruffy.

Right now the rules are fairly relaxed, but I'll bet that if folks are going to be stupid about this, more detailed instructions will follow.

[cld617]

There's no excuse for looking scruffy.

By what metric are you using to determine scruffy, what density of facial hair is required before it's a beard?

[LunchMeat]

Wow!  What a weasel approach.  The intent of the new policy is to allow everyone the opportunity to grow a beard if they so choose, not provide an excuse to neglect personal grooming if you don't feel like it today.  If you want to grow a beard, then grow a beard, but don't game the system.  There's no excuse for looking scruffy.

Right now the rules are fairly relaxed, but I'll bet that if folks are going to be stupid about this, more detailed instructions will follow.

I guess you haven't been following along have you?

The CDS and the CAFCWO, CCPO had to send out clarification clearly stating that the CANFORGEN permits people to shave every second day if they choose.

CoC's across the country were reading the CANFORGEN and making it much more restrictive (probably out of old dinosaur hate for anything modern) and the CDS was not having it.

So no, I don't think more restrictive rules are going to come out because they had the chance and didn't, in fact the clarifying statement relaxed the rules.

Just because you don't like it, and don't like scruffy people, doesn't mean everyone else has to suffer too.

[NEM3sis]

But the clarification only been sent to RSMs who are the one applying/enforcing the policy.
if they choose not to disseminate the message to exercise control, that clarification is null.
So a message Force-wide, not to a select-few who then decide if they want to share the knowledge or not, expressing that clarification would be nice.

[meni0n]

I was going to say it would be nice to have that clarification because the unit I'm at thinking it's ok to have members put in memos before growing beards and have beard committees

[daftandbarmy]

I was going to say it would be nice to have that clarification because the unit I'm at thinking it's ok to have members put in memos before growing beards and have beard committees

You, Sir, have won the internet for the day. Thank you for that. 

[dapaterson]

So, regimental beard committee at D+30, squadron at D+15, troop at D+7, and section at D+2 means you better be able to grow a beard within 48 hours...

[Jarnhamar]

Are members who grow beards for religious reasons held to the same beard grooming standards as everyone else?  ie 2 cm, clean neck etc..

[PMedMoe]

Are members who grow beards for religious reasons held to the same beard grooming standards as everyone else?  ie 2 cm, clean neck etc..

They weren't before the CANFORGEN. Why would they be now?

[Blackadder1916]

So, as I sit here stroking my graying, mandatory post-retirement beard in contemplation, I'm left wondering "what is a beard?".  Damn near everything else in the military has an official definition, but other than the drawing of what should be the limits of a beard in dress instructions there are no other definitions.  When does being "unshaven" become a beard?  I have my idea of the delineation, but, like Potter Stewart in Jacobellis v. Ohio, it is very much "I know it when I see it".  "Scruffy" is not a beard; it is an attitude that does not project the vision of discipline expected in a military force.  Stubble is not a beard; it is a fashion choice oft associated with pastel suits, sports cars and Miami nightlife, not to mention Italian (or other Mediterranean European) gigolos on beaches in banana hammocks.

Yes, I may be a dinosaur in the minds of those who think they should be able to do as they please as long as they think "it doesn't affect their job".  However, I expect a certain level of consistency in dress and deportment of members of the CAF.  I have no problems with any and all in uniform growing a beard (if they have the hormonal fortitude to do so), I once had a good start on full facial hair (I already had the pornstar 'stache) while working with 3VP's pioneer platoon about 4 decades ago.  And I also remember similar angst (though far from the horror portrayed here) in the 1970s when the creeping length of sideburns sent RSMs into spasm.  The CANFORGEN was poorly written; what I assume was to be a change to dress instruction to no longer limit beards to Navy types and infantry pioneers (if such an animal still exists) as long as operational requirements (and that being the "only" restriction) were met, instead now seems to be an accepted policy of soldiers can do whatever the frig they want with regards facial hair.

[meni0n]

You, Sir, have won the internet for the day. Thank you for that. 

I wish I was joking but that's what the SSM said. After 30 days of growing your beard, a beard committee will inspect it to see if it's a successful attempt or not. I wonder if there is a course the beard committee members have to take. Beard Officianados DP1 ?

[dapaterson]

PER points.  "Successfully disqualified 17 beards during the reporting period."

[Technoviking]

Is this the beard committee?

[meni0n]

I imagine it would more like that...

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/es.starwars/images/3/34/Sal%C3%B3n_del_Alto_Consejo_Jedi.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20061126175649

[Blackadder1916]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rtsw9lKe9k

[PuckChaser]

I'm confused at where people are reading that the lower neck and cheekbones have to be clean shaven every day?

4.WHERE THE WEARING OF A BEARD IS AUTHORIZED:

A. IT SHALL BE WORN WITH A MOUSTACHE,

B. IT SHALL BE NEATLY TRIMMED, ESPECIALLY ON THE LOWER NECK AND CHEEKBONES,

C. IT SHALL NOT EXCEED TWO CENTIMETERS IN BULK. A MEMBER WILL, ON THEIR OWN ACCORD OR UPON DIRECTION FROM THEIR COMMANDING OFFICER OR THEIR CO S DESIGNATE, SHAVE OFF UNSUCCESSFUL ATTEMPTS TO GROW A BEARD.

5.THE DIRECTION PERTAINING TO THE TRIMMING OF A BEARD AT PARA 5 ABOVE DOES NOT APPLY TO CAF MEMBERS WHO ARE EXEMPT, FOR MEDICAL REASONS, FROM SHAVING THE LOWER NECK OR CHEECKBONES

4.B. says neatly trimmed, not clean shaven. That means no hipster neck-beards, but does not mean you have to have it clean shaven every day.