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The Parade Square => Military Administration => Topic started by: donaldk on June 05, 2018, 23:33:01

Title: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: donaldk on June 05, 2018, 23:33:01
Something that flew CAF wide amongst Snr HRAs today that I got my hands on:

TL;DR = essentially weekend travel proceeding to CL B employment as a Class A reservist is on your own accord and dime.  If you are a Class A reservist and are filling a CFTPO or other Class B/C opportunity and expected by your CoC to do weekend travel via POMV to get to it - you must make your objections known, *individually*, via email/memo/letter to your CO, to bring awareness to this issue.  The email thread below is true however the exact orgs were blanked out.  The only hope is TBS will eventually change their policy allowing DCBA to update CBI 209 down the road.  Morale of the story: if you take your POMV and not getting a cost move you are loosing out.

*** BELOW INTERPRETATION EFFECTIVE 1 AUG 17 ***

QUESTION 1 BY CO of major L3 to L2 Comptroller (J8):

1.       Good morning (L2 Comptroller/J8), as per our discussion, I would ask that you seek further input from DCBA wrt to their change in interpretation of the Weekend Travel Benefit (WTB) for Class A personnel.  This ruling will have a very significant effect on our ability to get future Class A Reserve support for incremental taskings for instructors, QS TP boards members and Administrative Investigations.

2.       CFTPO tasks are an integral part of [my organization's] course incremental staffing plan.  These tasks are sometimes filled by Class A Reservist on Class B CFTPO task.  I do not understand the differentiation of a Class A member coming on a Class B tasking that involves an extended period of time TD as compared to a Reg Force member or a full time Class B Reservist coming on tasking.  All three types of military members should be given the same benefits will on TD completing a CFTPO tasking.  The reimbursement is a recognition of a member being away from their family and should be no different for a Class A member while on Class B tasking.  Furthermore, Class A personnel lose their entitlement to their commuting assistance benefit when accepting a Class B tasking, which implies they are now considered Class B for the duration of the Class B employment and should be afforded the same TD benefits. The Class A member is often helping fill a Reg force manning shortfall and not allowing them the same benefits could jeopardize the support we have had, and hope to continue to have, from the Class A Reserve community.

3.       My unit has carried out two Board of Inquiries over the past 7 months, relying heavily upon Class A members accepting Class B tasks for up to six months at a time to fill Board positions that went unfilled by Reg Force CFTPO taskings.  These members were on TD and not within daily commuting distance of their home units or families.  Not providing the WDT benefit could jeopardize our ability to tap into this group  to fill these critical functions.


4.       The implementation of the revised interpretation below could have a devastating effect on [my organization's] future ability to fill CFTPO tasks in support of Training Establishments' courses and Administrative Investigations.  Request further consideration be given prior overturning a previous interpretation,  and if this new direction is up help, I would request a detailed explanation as to why there has been such a significant change in policy interpretation.



QUESTION 2 by L2 Comptroller/J8:




Just to clarify if a Class A member takes a Class B contract (outside their geo area) to instruct or to do a BOI, would they be entitled to “Reimbursement of weekend travel while on TD”?

I believe they should be entitled because they are performing tasks outside of their normal duties.

 

It is extremely hard to fill these tasking and by not providing this benefit could definitely threaten our ability to use Reserve personnel to fill these positions [and our ability to fill a CAF wide training mandate impacting the CAF as a whole].



ANSWER by +DCBA 3 Clarifcations to L2 Comptroller/J8:



Ref:  CBI 209.31

 

Sorry for the delay.  This policy has been under much scrutiny and we also requested Legal advice.  DCBA 3 understands the dissatisfaction and the disparity of benefits and fully recognizes the need for change. 

 

However, we cannot change our interpretation of the current policy.

 

To answer your question below:

 

If a Class A member takes a Class B contract (outside their geo area) and he/she is performing tasks outside of his/her normal duties (incremental tasking), he/she is not eligible to reimbursement for weekend travel based on the limitations at para 2 (c) (iii) of ref, as he/she is not already on a Class B contract and called out for an extended period of time for another purpose.

 

If a Class A member takes a Class B contract (outside their geo area) and he/she is performing tasks that are part of his/her normal duties(it is not an incremental tasking, like a CO when visiting units under his control, Audit WO when traveling to conduct audits etc), he/she may be reimbursed IAW para 1 of ref.

 

To breakdown the two entitlements in order to further assist you to remain in compliance with the Treasury Board approved policy:

 

1.       Reimbursement when performing tasks outside of normal duties (Para 2)

·         Who

o   Restrictive to members on full-time service

o   Regular Force, the Reserve Force on Class “C” Reserve Service or a member of the Reserve Force on Class “B” Reserve Service who, while on callout, is required to remain on callout and to perform tasks that are outside of their normal duties.  (2 (c) (iii))

§  To be clear - this only includes Reserve Force members who are on a Class B contract and then get “called out” for another purpose (incrementally) thus performing tasks outside of normal duties.  Reserve Force members (Class A) who fill incremental taskings and proceed on Class B service are not eligible under para 2

·         What

o   Reimbursement to travel on a weekend when performing tasks outside of normal duties (incremental tasks)

·         When

o   If authorized by the Commanding Officer to travel on a weekend, once every 30 days providing before beginning the travel the member has served at least eight days of actual duty at the temporary duty location and after completion of the travel there are at least eight days of actual duty remaining at the temporary duty location

·         Where

o   To the member’s normal place of duty or the place where their dependents are residing

·         How much

o   IAW CFTDTI

 

2.       Reimbursement when performing tasks that are part of their normal duties (Para 1)

·         Who

o   All members

·         What

o   Reimbursement to travel on a weekend when on temporary duty and performing tasks that are part of their normal duties (situations outside of incremental tasking billets) providing the member is not attending a course of training or instruction

·         When

o   Any time the member is authorized by their Commanding Officer to travel on a weekend and unless after completion of the travel, there are fewer than three days of actual duty remaining at the temporary duty location

·         Where

o   To the member’s normal place of duty or the place where their dependents are residing

·         How much

o   Shall not exceed the cost of maintaining the member at the temporary duty location

 

The policy in question is quite old and steps to modernize such old policies, for submission to Treasury Board, has begun; CBI 209 will be reviewed as soon as possible.  Unfortunately, a Treasury Board submission and its approval is not a fast process; policies are prioritized by the CoCs and even the GoC, and it can involve negotiations, policy comparisons, costing, and various levels of reviews (including legal).

*** ABOVE INTERPRETATION EFFECTIVE 1 AUG 17 ***
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: kratz on June 06, 2018, 01:31:55
Be careful jumping the gun on this one.

Someone, has merged two concepts in their interpretation of the written Instructions:

CFTDI  - applies to all authorized TD travel, to and from your home.  For most government work (civilians, RegF, PRes ect...) So Class A reservist continue to be able be eligible to take their PMV on a TD tasking, including travel over on a Sat/Sun IAW CFTDI.


CBI 209.31 - restricts WTB to RegF and limited Cl B Personal. This is a different and separate benefit from actually transporting a member to/from a TD site.

So no substantial changes from what had been occurring for years.
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: CountDC on June 06, 2018, 14:18:17
and wrong.

Class A members are not eligible to take their PMV on TD if the travel is over the daily travel limit of 500kms as heavily discussed in another thread unless:

1. The employment period is long enough for them to earn leave to cover the additional travel days; and
2. The employing unit agrees to the mbr taking leave at the beginning and end of their employment to cover the additional travel days.

not even getting into the paid leave discussion again.  Feel free to look up the other thread if you want to get into all those details/arguments.
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: ballz on June 06, 2018, 14:21:07
and wrong.

Class A members are not eligible to take their PMV on TD if the travel is over the daily travel limit of 500kms as heavily discussed in another thread unless:

1. The employment period is long enough for them to earn leave to cover the additional travel days; and
2. The employing unit agrees to the mbr taking leave at the beginning and end of their employment to cover the additional travel days.

not even getting into the paid leave discussion again.  Feel free to look up the other thread if you want to get into all those details/arguments.

I sincerely hope the BS around POMVs (it's more than just the Class A stuff that's ridiculous on this issue) is near the top of this list of concerns being brought to the TB... but somehow I doubt it.
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: captloadie on June 07, 2018, 12:54:20
/tangent
I'm curious on which specific BS on POMVs you would like changed? I agree that the Class A issue is a great dissatifier.

The rules on Reg F/Class B members though has a specific reason. And it isn't a financial one (other than most cost effective means). It is about a member's safety, and treating members like adults. The CoC, by allowing a member to take their own vehicle, is accommodating a personal desire of the member. By forcing the member to be on some type of leave over and above the allotted travel day is the CoC doing its due diligence to ensure the member can take adequate time to get to their destination. We aren't babying people here, we are actually providing the member an opportunity to act like an adult. I won't dictate to a member he needs to take all 4 days to get to his course location for example. I'm giving them the flexibility of making an adult decision on what they can personally do the drive in, arriving safely and ready for course. I agree that it should matter what type of leave the member is on, as long as it is valid for that purpose.

/tangent

Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 07, 2018, 19:52:48
With a 500km/day enforced limit?  That's being treated 'like an adult'?  I disagree. 

If I'm Cl A and starting a CL B on Base X, 800kms away on a Sunday which is also my travel day, how exactly can the CAF tell me where I can and can't drive my car on Fri and Sat?  Or, is this specifically WRT paid duty travel vice "what I do when I am not on the Queens Time"?
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: CountDC on June 08, 2018, 14:07:40
ok I will play on that one.

They are not telling you what you can do, they are telling you what the military/government will cover you for.  If you decide to drive without authority then the military does not pay for your travel, you are on your own dime.  More importantly though is that if you have an accident while traveling on your own then you are not covered by the military or VAC.  If you are Reg F and get into an accident outside the one day travel/500kms then VAC may not cover you. Liability and benefits plays a part in this.  Claims are always done up to reflect the authorized form of travel which is usually CA.

I always inform people, I am not saying you can't, I am providing the information for you to make an educated decision knowing what will be claimable and the possible risks involved.  Like an adult you then decide what you are willing to give up and if the risk is worth it.
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Lumber on June 08, 2018, 15:14:25
There is a very easy solution for all Class-A members who want to drive their own vehicles to courses/taskings etc. It's dishonest, technically, but it works and you still get to keep your travel day as a paid travel day. Just figure it out and you're golden.

As for RegF/Class-B, I agree with both EITS and captloadie.

The rules are therefore your safety. If the tasking is 1500km away, and you have to be there tomorrow, then yes, techncailly you can drive there in 12hrs going 120kph the whole way, but is it safe?

Now, 500km a day? That's too little. How about 800km a day.
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 08, 2018, 18:41:08
ok I will play on that one.

They are not telling you what you can do, they are telling you what the military/government will cover you for.  If you decide to drive without authority then the military does not pay for your travel, you are on your own dime.  More importantly though is that if you have an accident while traveling on your own then you are not covered by the military or VAC.  If you are Reg F and get into an accident outside the one day travel/500kms then VAC may not cover you. Liability and benefits plays a part in this.  Claims are always done up to reflect the authorized form of travel which is usually CA.

I always inform people, I am not saying you can't, I am providing the information for you to make an educated decision knowing what will be claimable and the possible risks involved.  Like an adult you then decide what you are willing to give up and if the risk is worth it.

Really good points to draw attention to.  I know if it were me, and I was going 1000km away on a Cl B for 2-3 months, I'd take my car.  I recall my Cl B callout days with no vehicle...not fun.  Of course, yes, then the mbr is effectively "a civie" travelling back and forth.  I've seen compromise too.  I've also see some units say "you can't use your Special Leave days to travel".  And others have no problem with it as it is 'paid leave'.

Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 08, 2018, 18:44:03

The rules are therefore your safety. If the tasking is 1500km away, and you have to be there tomorrow, then yes, techncailly you can drive there in 12hrs going 120kph the whole way, but is it safe?

Now, 500km a day? That's too little. How about 800km a day.

800 sounds more adult-realistic to me and, IIRC, is about the amount professional trucker drivers are limited to a day. 

If I was posted from coast to coast, I'd have X days to travel.  No one AFAIK actually checks my file to ensure "I only drove 500km/day". 
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: kratz on June 08, 2018, 18:51:04
800 sounds more adult-realistic to me and, IIRC, is about the amount professional trucker drivers are limited to a day. 

If I was posted from coast to coast, I'd have X days to travel.  No one AFAIK actually checks my file to ensure "I only drove 500km/day".

Not only safety, but some of these travel policies align with what the public service unions have negotiated.
While a private sector trucker may be limited to 800Km per day, how do the TB agreements bear on our current restrictions?
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 08, 2018, 18:56:25
No idea, but if that is part or the majority of the reason we became restricted 500 a day....well, I think the GoC needs to evaluate if the CAF and the public servants need to have the exact same parameters;  I think we do not.  We have different needs for different reasons (IMO).

Of course, reality and common sense doesn't have to play a part in the equation.   :tsktsk:
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: ballz on June 08, 2018, 20:10:53
/tangent
I'm curious on which specific BS on POMVs you would like changed? I agree that the Class A issue is a great dissatifier.

The rules on Reg F/Class B members though has a specific reason. And it isn't a financial one (other than most cost effective means). It is about a member's safety, and treating members like adults. The CoC, by allowing a member to take their own vehicle, is accommodating a personal desire of the member. By forcing the member to be on some type of leave over and above the allotted travel day is the CoC doing its due diligence to ensure the member can take adequate time to get to their destination. We aren't babying people here, we are actually providing the member an opportunity to act like an adult. I won't dictate to a member he needs to take all 4 days to get to his course location for example. I'm giving them the flexibility of making an adult decision on what they can personally do the drive in, arriving safely and ready for course. I agree that it should matter what type of leave the member is on, as long as it is valid for that purpose.

/tangent

I've driven across Canada three times. The first two times, I drove 16 hours a day. The third time, I drove about 10. Good to know I'm not adult enough. You are certainly the first human I've come across that thinks telling a grown man/woman how many hours he can drive in a day - particularly limiting it to five hours (but I don't care if you're telling him he can't drive for 16 hours, the point stands) - is "treating people like an adult" and "not babysitting" them.

If I'm on annual leave, or weekend leave for that matter, and I want to drive in circles on the Anthony Henday for 20 hrs, that's none of DND's  business. If I'm on annual leave, or weekend leave, and want to drive to from Edmonton to Borden, that's none of DND's business. So this policy is particularly awful because it's very clear that you are on leave and therefore it's not duty-travel / injuries and are not service-related but yet you must take enough leave to do so as if you were 1. being paid to do this and 2. covered in the event of injury. That is literally trying to suck and blow at the same time. Either I'm on leave and it's none of DND's business, or I'm not on leave and you can tell me I can only drive 500km. Not both.

This policy is literally a punitive measure applied to those who are being sent on TD for often times months at a time. Not only that, but then they literally save money on the backs of the member who is getting screwed by reimbursing him *less* than if he flew.

Find me any other job that asks their employee to go to some craphole in nowhereville for 3 months and tells them "if you want to take your car at your own expense, I will reimburse you less money and by the way, forfeit some of your leave for helping me out." and then go to the recruiting/retention thread and think about it for a bit. Most of our compensation & benefits is based off of public service... in the public service they literally ask the employee "do you want to fly or drive" and then when they say "drive," they get reimbursed the high-rate, the hotels, etc etc etc.

The policy should be re-written to something that does treat members like adults, such as "if member elects to drive, they will be provided one duty travel day and reimbursed the cost of the Commanding Officer's selected mode of transportation. The member will be required to make all other arrangements necessary, including use of annual leave if required."

800 sounds more adult-realistic to me and, IIRC, is about the amount professional trucker drivers are limited to a day. 

My cousin is a trucker and told me he is limited to 13 hours a day behind the wheel. I don't know how much that varies across provinces or if it does at all.
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: SupersonicMax on June 08, 2018, 22:31:39
Just as comparisons...  On the Hornet, you can have a crew duty day of 14 hours and CO can extend to 16 hours.  Furthermore, I can fly an 8-hour combat mission (and I have on 3 occasions) and up to 10 hours a day for transits.

Yet, I can't drive for more than 5 hours on a highway?
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 08, 2018, 23:14:17
Yup; we are 18 hour crew day max at the crew commander level, CO can authorize a 24 hour crew day.  We fly straight across the ocean from this continent to "others" non-stop and that is no issue.  I've been on crews that have done 12+hour missions.

Drive more than 5 hours straight?  Unpossible!  Unsafe!   :orly:
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Eagle Eye View on June 09, 2018, 00:49:26
Sadly the people who makes these policies can’t think outside the box, nor think about operational reasons. Making policies that follow “common sense” or “in the best interest” of the member is not part of their mandate.

Rant off
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: captloadie on June 11, 2018, 11:06:31
Ballz - I'm still not really sure what point you are trying to make. What does it matter if you drove straight across Canada in so many hours so many times. Good for you. You made an adult decision on what you could do safely. Congratulations. And it doesn't matter what they do on civvy street, other than for individuals like you who continue to put forward the argument that its so much better than the CAF.

The crew day scenario for flying, much like comparing what professional drivers are allowed to do, isn't valid as a straight across comparison. Max and EITS, after those 12 or 16 hour days, how many times have you had to get up and do it all again the next day for more than 2 days straight? I know the crew day rules as well, and unless there is an operational imperative, know there are mandatory rest periods R days. It isn't supposed to happen that you fly two straight 12-14 hour crew days, and then be in class the next morning at 0800 wide awake and ready to learn (yes, it probably has happened, but it isn't the norm).

Professional drivers, especially long haul drivers, do it for a living. Their bodies have adjusted to the job, and they are mentally and physically adapted to long days behind the wheel. Even then though, they suffer from fatigue, and if you Google it, there aren't many days go by that some semi hasn't been in an accident due to fatigue. They also aren't making money unless they are on the road. Capt Dumas or Cpl Bloggins who sits behind a desk or works on the shop floor for 8 hours a day and then heads home can't be expected to be able to pull 2 or 3 long days behind the wheel and then show up for class ready to go. But if they choose to, well that's a personal choice.

Is the limit of 500km too little? Probably. But what should the limit be? And do we need to be careful that we aren't shooting ourselves in the foot, because all of a sudden the Move entitlements change? How long before someone says that if you can drive 800km for non move related travel, you can do the same when moving (although I can travel a lot farther in a day without a wife, 3 kids the dog and a everything else I'm dragging along). 



Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: CountDC on June 11, 2018, 16:35:04
Really good points to draw attention to.  I know if it were me, and I was going 1000km away on a Cl B for 2-3 months, I'd take my car.  I recall my Cl B callout days with no vehicle...not fun.  Of course, yes, then the mbr is effectively "a civie" travelling back and forth.  I've seen compromise too.  I've also see some units say "you can't use your Special Leave days to travel".  And others have no problem with it as it is 'paid leave'.

I don't blame anyone for taking their vehicles if they can.  A few months in Borden would be horrible without one.

The wording of the leave and the various interpretations need work.  Instead of using the term paid leave and then trying to impose annual leave just doesn't make sense.  If it was meant to be annual then say that.  Special Reloc leave though is clear in the LPM to be taken at location and is to give you time to organize everything for when you are away.  That one I agree with but don't see an issue with weekend and short if the CO wants to give it.  I still get paid when I take short leave.

As for other things I see.

One part that I always find amazing is how often people aim at the CAF for all these policies that are first put out by TB, appear in the NJC and then expanded further in the CAF to meet our needs (again approved by TB).  NJC 3.3.11 (c) has the same daily restriction.  The change for DND is that you can do 150kms along with a full day works vice NJC 250kms, most likely to protect the members as I don't see how that would be saving the military any money.  Again don't see anyone stopping you from making the choice, all of this is to protect the members as a restriction on what the chain of command can impose or expect from their members rather than have some of the stuff that happened in the past along with protecting the crown from liability.

Remember the CAF does not tell you to drive your car, you are asking permission to do it so yes the CAF and the government does have the right to put restrictions in there.  Saving a few dollars driving is not the only factor.  Liability - the member that decides to drive 1000kms, has an accident due to fatigue, runs to lawyers and lawsuit filed.  Injured someone else?  Again CAF expected to cover them too. Even without the lawsuits the member spends months unable to perform their duties.  That is a loss to the crown.  Yep, we are all investments by the crown, they have spent time and money training us to do certain duties and when we can't it is a loss.

At the end of the day, if you want to ignore policies put into place to protect everyone and choose to do something else feel free to do so.  Seems unreasonable to me to expect your employer to cover you though. 

Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: SupersonicMax on June 11, 2018, 18:34:31
The crew day scenario for flying, much like comparing what professional drivers are allowed to do, isn't valid as a straight across comparison. Max and EITS, after those 12 or 16 hour days, how many times have you had to get up and do it all again the next day for more than 2 days straight? I know the crew day rules as well, and unless there is an operational imperative, know there are mandatory rest periods R days. It isn't supposed to happen that you fly two straight 12-14 hour crew days, and then be in class the next morning at 0800 wide awake and ready to learn (yes, it probably has happened, but it isn't the norm).

I have regular 12 hours crew day with the minimum 12 hours crew rest and a lot of them consecutively.  Not abnormal...

I recently flew 16 hours in 46 hours with the minimum crew rest between crew days.  No issues or abnormal fatigue.
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: ballz on June 11, 2018, 23:33:34
 :facepalm:  :facepalm:
What does it matter if you drove straight across Canada in so many hours so many times. Good for you. You made an adult decision on what you could do safely. Congratulations.

An adult decision that I cannot make in the CAF because people, such as yourself, are advocating I be babysat when I am on my own time, and my own dime, and forced to take 7 days of leave for what is a 2-day drive (Edmonton to Borden, for example). That is why it is relevant.

And, of course, you are doing an about-face. First your argument insinuated that by not taking all the days, the member was not being adult-like.

And it doesn't matter what they do on civvy street, other than for individuals like you who continue to put forward the argument that its so much better than the CAF.

Uh huh. Who do we compete with for labour if not the private labour market? And how are the standards of other organizations not relevant? Are you going to pull the "on deployment" argument next?

Professional drivers, especially long haul drivers, do it for a living. Their bodies have adjusted to the job, and they are mentally and physically adapted to long days behind the wheel. Even then though, they suffer from fatigue, and if you Google it, there aren't many days go by that some semi hasn't been in an accident due to fatigue. They also aren't making money unless they are on the road.

I didn't realize all those long hours of slouching in a chair, drinking coffee, staring straight forward, did not adequately prepare me for perils of driving. Are you safe to drive home after an 8-hour shift behind a computer?

Capt Dumas or Cpl Bloggins who sits behind a desk or works on the shop floor for 8 hours a day and then heads home can't be expected to be able to pull 2 or 3 long days behind the wheel and then show up for class ready to go.

We're not talking about Capt Dumas or Cpl Bloggins being expected to do this, are we? You're mixing up when the member is told to drive a POMV or a rental car, and when the member is asking to take their POMV because it's for their own benefit.

But if they choose to, well that's a personal choice.

No, it's not. The personal choice part has been taken out because we're trying to babysit.

Ballz - I'm still not really sure what point you are trying to make.p.

There's two very clear points.

1. I am an adult. I can drive as far as I want when I'm on my own time and my own dime and it's none of the DND's business.

2. You can't suck and blow at the same time. If you're going to say "members are on leave for their travel" then you can't, at the same time say "but they can only drive 500km." Well, the DND clearly can suck and blow at the same time but that's why it's a waste of $20 billion a year.

Is the limit of 500km too little? Probably. But what should the limit be?

If I'm on leave, there is no and should not be a limit. Easy enough.

And do we need to be careful that we aren't shooting ourselves in the foot, because all of a sudden the Move entitlements change? How long before someone says that if you can drive 800km for non move related travel, you can do the same when moving (although I can travel a lot farther in a day without a wife, 3 kids the dog and a everything else I'm dragging along).

The 500km/day thing is insanely generous and I wish it would be changed to 800km / 8 hrs a day. If someone is so weak they can't drive for more than 500km / 5hrs a day without becoming a safety hazard, what exactly can they do? Clearly this is something that was negotiated by a bunch of unionized employees and it needlessly costs the taxpayers. But here's the rub, in practice, public servants are simply asked "what do you want to do, fly or drive?" and the approving authority picks the method requested. They don't play the nickle and dime game that we do. So the public servants don't have to have this gripe, one because they get to choose and two because they don't get sent to isolated crapholes for months at a time.

That one I agree with but don't see an issue with weekend and short if the CO wants to give it.  I still get paid when I take short leave.

That interpretation of "paid leave" seems to be isolated so far. Thank God. Whoever is going down that road should get a smack.

One part that I always find amazing is how often people aim at the CAF for all these policies that are first put out by TB

The original comment I made was directly in relation to the email that stated that DCBA is addressing x,y,z, issues with the TB.

Again don't see anyone stopping you from making the choice, all of this is to protect the members as a restriction on what the chain of command can impose or expect from their members rather than have some of the stuff that happened in the past along with protecting the crown from liability.

People seem to be unable to differentiate between when the CoC tells you to take POMV / rental, and when you are asking to do. It's reasonable to put limits on the CoC for when they are forcing people to drive... it's not reasonable to put these kind of limits on someone *when they are on their own leave, driving on their own time and dime*.

Plus, you're wrong. It doesn't matter if I get in an accident in the first 100km. The Crown would still be subject to a lawsuit if I was on duty. If I wasn't on duty (i.e. annual leave), then no, they wouldn't be. My law textbook is on the other side of the country but it's basic tort law, vicarious liability.

Remember the CAF does not tell you to drive your car, you are asking permission to do it so yes the CAF and the government does have the right to put restrictions in there.

No, they don't. If permission being granted is contingent on me *using my own leave, using my own money, etc* then no, they don't. I have to ask permission for all annual leave that I take. In no circumstance does the CAF have a right to tell how many KMs a day I can drive. Even if the CFTDI they don't go as far as to tell you that. They just say "the member must take paid leave based on a formula." It doesn't even mention only driving 500km a day.

It is literally just making you forfeit compensation (yes, annual leave is compensation). No driving rules attached. It is literally the same thing as saying "the member will forfeit one day's pay per day based on the kilometres travelled / 500km."

At the end of the day, if you want to ignore policies put into place to protect everyone and choose to do something else feel free to do so. 

We don't have an option to opt-out using the leave. And there is no policy, not even the one that says you have to take annual leave based on 500km/day, that says you are limited to driving 500km/day.

Seems unreasonable to me to expect your employer to cover you though.

Okay, wtf are you even talking about? Where is anyone suggesting if we drive on our annual leave we think it ought to be covered as a service-related injury? And let's be clear, you are *not* going to be "covered" if you do choose to drive 500km day *while on annual leave.*

I would like to be able to take my annual leave and drive as far as I wish without the DND being involved... just like every other day of annual / weekend leave I take that's not attached to a claim. If I drive in circles for 20 hours on the Anthony Henday on a day of weekend leave and get in an accident I don't expect it to be a service-related injury, and I don't expect it to be on any other day of annual leave. Not a very outlandish idea.
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: SupersonicMax on June 12, 2018, 00:20:27
To be fair, with young kids, 500 km can easily turn into 8+ hours...
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Quirky on June 12, 2018, 01:22:17
Just as comparisons...  On the Hornet, you can have a crew duty day of 14 hours and CO can extend to 16 hours.  Furthermore, I can fly an 8-hour combat mission (and I have on 3 occasions) and up to 10 hours a day for transits.

Yet, I can't drive for more than 5 hours on a highway?

How many of those flying hours are actually flying - HOTAS? Those heading, course and ATC switches get worked the most. I know after 6 hours of driving I’m pushing it unless the seats are extremely comfortable.
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: SupersonicMax on June 12, 2018, 02:11:31
Doing CAS in theater? Lots of hands-on flying and focus on sensors/other aircraft/tanking/airspace/targets and weapons employment.  If I am using the autopilot, it's to free some of my capacity to mission tasks (and because the aircraft flies itself doesn't mean everything is done for you - the autopilot doesn't look over your formation, make sure you stay in the airspace, employ weapons, track targets or tank for you...

 How much experience do you have flying a Hornet?
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Furniture on June 12, 2018, 09:10:48
I've driven across the country several times now for postings and courses, and have to see an issue being raised by my CoC for driving more than 500km in a day. Routinely I drive 8-10 hour days based on the location of towns with reasonable hotels. I`ve also never resented taking a few days of leave in exchange for the drive either, it gave me extra time at home or on location to get situated before the course/tasking began.

The main benefit of the 500km a day planning model is it encourages people to make smart driving choices. Most of us have likely done a 16+ hour driving day in the past, but they are generally unsafe and shouldn`t be encouraged as the norm when traveling. Working a 16 hour day for operational reasons isn`t the same as driving a 16 hour day because you didn`t want to use leave or spend money.
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Quirky on June 12, 2018, 09:19:13
Doing CAS in theater? Lots of hands-on flying and focus on sensors/other aircraft/tanking/airspace/targets and weapons employment.  If I am using the autopilot, it's to free some of my capacity to mission tasks (and because the aircraft flies itself doesn't mean everything is done for you - the autopilot doesn't look over your formation, make sure you stay in the airspace, employ weapons, track targets or tank for you...

 How much experience do you have flying a Hornet?

I have my 5 hour patch and I’m quite proud of it but would prefer to keep both feet on the ground. From my “vast” experience in that fish bowl I can say it does fly itself rather nicely. Doing the other things while flying is a different matter. It’s like driving 10 hours from Calgary to Winnipeg vs Calgary to Vancouver. You can pretty much zone out through the prairies while driving into the mountains requires more attention.
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Lumber on June 12, 2018, 14:05:20
1. I am an adult. I can drive as far as I want when I'm on my own time and my own dime and it's none of the DND's business.

2. You can't suck and blow at the same time. If you're going to say "members are on leave for their travel" then you can't, at the same time say "but they can only drive 500km." Well, the DND clearly can suck and blow at the same time but that's why it's a waste of $20 billion a year.


I'm number my points but they don't correspond directly to your numbers points above.

1. You cannot be ordered to take POMV. Period. If your chain of command wants you to take POMV, and you say no, it's up to them to find an alternative method (including rental).

2. This is a fine line, but it's an important distinction: if you chose to take POMV vice the preferred method of travel, then you "shall take one day’s paid leave, after the first day, for every 500 kilometres travelled."

Notice that it doesn't say "you must only drive 500km per day". Obviously, this implies that you should be driving only 500km per day, but the CAF isn't ordering you to. You're on leave, so do what you want, but the CAF is forcing you to take ample time to make safe decisions.

3. Weekend leave is considered paid leave, so long as you are actually getting paid (sorry, Class-A reservists, in most cases, although I have found a loophole). I fought this battle all the way up to DMCA and won. Of course the way this organization works, I'm sure that next week a different analyst at DMCA will provide the exact opposite answer to someone else...
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: ballz on June 12, 2018, 16:30:10
1. You cannot be ordered to take POMV. Period. If your chain of command wants you to take POMV, and you say no, it's up to them to find an alternative method (including rental).

I’m aware of this. I’ve went against my pedantic nature and deliberately ignored the nuance as that fact has no impact on the discussion and I am trying to respond to 100 other points right now. You are “asked” to take POMV or told to take a rental, in either case, the CoC is limited to having you drive 500km/day for the purpose of restraining the CoC from bag-driving a member.

2. This is a fine line, but it's an important distinction: if you chose to take POMV vice the preferred method of travel, then you "shall take one day’s paid leave, after the first day, for every 500 kilometres travelled."

Notice that it doesn't say "you must only drive 500km per day". Obviously, this implies that you should be driving only 500km per day, but the CAF isn't ordering you to. You're on leave, so do what you want, but the CAF is forcing you to take ample time to make safe decisions.

I’ve already pointed this out. The principle remains the same, and the principle is “you are not an adult capable of making adult decisions, and therefore we can tell you how many days you need to drive.” The fact that they do not explicitly say “you can only drive 500km a day,” IMO, indicates they were probably told by a JAG that they couldn’t, so they just re-worded it to a roundabout manner (which is probably even more irritating). In this case, you are literally being told to forfeit compensation regardless. It’s nonsensical.

3. Weekend leave is considered paid leave, so long as you are actually getting paid (sorry, Class-A reservists, in most cases, although I have found a loophole). I fought this battle all the way up to DMCA and won. Of course the way this organization works, I'm sure that next week a different analyst at DMCA will provide the exact opposite answer to someone else...

Glad you won, whether it’s a poor policy applied correctly or a poor policy applied incorrectly, it’s still a poor policy. That only softens the blow (although I believe there are still places applying the policy that poorly). Regardless, even with weekends there are still cases where you are going to end up choosing between forfeiting annual leave or a reduced quality of life on your tasking. Edmonton to Borden, 7 days of leave req’d to go one-way. In 2 RCR we had guys getting boned all the time for taskings, we supported them as best we could but the CO can only give out 2 short and that's really the only flexibility he has to try and soften the blow of what is a piss poor policy.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let’s weigh what we’ve discussed so far…

Positive aspects of this policy
1. “You can take the extra leave days and spend them at home, getting ready for your tasking if the 2 days of special weren’t enough.” This is not a result of this this policy… you could always request to take your own annual for this purpose if you so choose. So, value added? Nil.

2. “The crown’s liability is reduced.” This is false. If you are on duty and have only travelled 100km and get in an accident, the Crown is still vicariously liable. If you are not on duty, the Crown's liability is unchanged. So, value added? Nil.

3. “It “protects” the member.” No, it doesn’t. If the member is on annual leave and gets in an accident after driving only 100km, he’s not going to be successful in a VAC claim. You are asleep at the wheel if you think otherwise. Re: The very upsetting story of Capt Kim Fawcett… if the Crown fought 3 times against her now, then you and I are hooped if we get in an accident while on annual leave. So, value added? Nil.

Negative aspects of this policy

1. Members are treated as though they are not adults and can’t be allowed to decide for themselves how many days they need to drive any given distance.

2. Members choose between forfeiting compensation and proceeding on long taskings in crapholes with no vehicle (Reduced quality of life, increased expenses). In either case, the member is negatively affected.

3. Compared to civilian work, this policy results in worse compensation/expense reimbursement. Retention/morale negatively affected.

Pretty clear that the sum of all parts of this policy is a negative overall effect, given that this policy results in *no* positives and definitely some negatives, in some cases some very strong negatives.

I've driven across the country several times now for postings and courses, and have to see an issue being raised by my CoC for driving more than 500km in a day.

That’s because they can’t tell you not to drive more than 500km in a day, and yet you are forced to take the leave away. See: sucking and blowing at the same time.

I`ve also never resented taking a few days of leave in exchange for the drive either, it gave me extra time at home or on location to get situated before the course/tasking began.

That’s as great for you as it is irrelevant. You have the option of requesting annual leave prior to your 2x special without this policy. Why should everyone else be forced to take annual leave they don’t need to take?

The main benefit of the 500km a day planning model is it encourages people to make smart driving choices. Most of us have likely done a 16+ hour driving day in the past, but they are generally unsafe and shouldn`t be encouraged as the norm when traveling. Working a 16 hour day for operational reasons isn`t the same as driving a 16 hour day because you didn`t want to use leave or spend money.

Are you my mom and dad? If that’s “the main benefit,” then thank you, because that is ******* *weak.*

People going on tasks for 5-6 months at a time shouldn’t be forced to choose between forfeiting compensation or a reduced quality of life / added expenses on the other end. Thanks though, next time the troops need help deciding what should go in their bagged lunch I’ll refer them to you.

What is “safe” and “worth it” is a judgement call. Last time I checked, every member of the CAF over the age of 18 is considered a competent adult and don’t need mom and dad to determine that for them. They can vote, they can sign on for unlimited liability, they can operate fighter jets, they can decide for themselves what is "safe" enough or what is "worth it."
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: ballz on June 12, 2018, 16:32:38
To be fair, with young kids, 500 km can easily turn into 8+ hours...

Thank you, I forgot to address this.

Yes, 100%, it can. The CFIRP and the CFTDI are two completely different policies. We can easily accommodate both. And, even if we couldn't, we could fix it within the CFIRP on its own because we already give extra benefits / compensation / etc to people with dependents for certain things.

So yes, is it reasonable for someone with 3 young kids to need 500km/day. Absolutely. Does that mean members proceeding on a TD tasking should have to give up annual leave in exchange for taking their vehicle? I don't see how the two are related.
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 12, 2018, 17:09:01
I have my 5 hour patch and I’m quite proud of it but would prefer to keep both feet on the ground. From my “vast” experience in that fish bowl I can say it does fly itself rather nicely. Doing the other things while flying is a different matter. It’s like driving 10 hours from Calgary to Winnipeg vs Calgary to Vancouver. You can pretty much zone out through the prairies while driving into the mountains requires more attention.

Except, in the Prairies you aren't sitting at 10,000 feet altitude.  Flying at high altitude in a pressurized cabin isn't ground level.  Sitting at 10,000 altitude has its own effect after X/XX hours.

Flying and driving don't compare 'apples to apples'. 
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: CountDC on June 12, 2018, 17:13:24

No, it's not. The personal choice part has been taken out because we're trying to babysit.

Not completely - you still have a choice.  Drive your car without the approval to do so.  Nothing stopping you from doing that other than if you want to be claim your travel expenses.  I have a few members that have opted to do that.  You can also choice to take the required leave and drive as long as you want.   

But here's the rub, in practice, public servants are simply asked "what do you want to do, fly or drive?" and the approving authority picks the method requested. They don't play the nickle and dime game that we do. So the public servants don't have to have this gripe, one because they get to choose and two because they don't get sent to isolated crapholes for months at a time.
NJC does state they are restricted to 500kms a day.

That interpretation of "paid leave" seems to be isolated so far. Thank God. Whoever is going down that road should get a smack.
DCBA around 2014/2015 I believe it was.

People seem to be unable to differentiate between when the CoC tells you to take POMV / rental, and when you are asking to do. [/b][/i]
Telling you to take POMV is not an option.  They can ask and if you agree leave is not required.  Rental car they can tell but again leave is not required.  Both options would have them covering all your travel expenses including meals, hotels, mileage/rental cost.

Plus, you're wrong. It doesn't matter if I get in an accident in the first 100km. The Crown would still be subject to a lawsuit if I was on duty. If I wasn't on duty (i.e. annual leave), then no, they wouldn't be. My law textbook is on the other side of the country but it's basic tort law, vicarious liability.
had to look back and yes I could have worded that better.  The point was if they didn't have the 500km limit for your travel day which you are on duty for and you decided to drive 1000km. 

We don't have an option to opt-out using the leave.
We do have an option.  Travel by other means such as CA and forfeit travel expenses are both other options.

Okay, wtf are you even talking about? Where is anyone suggesting if we drive on our annual leave we think it ought to be covered.
Perhaps you missed this part or took it to mean I only see things in this board:  As for other things I see.

"they can decide for themselves what is "safe" enough or what is "worth it."

Yet despite all these regulations, policies and chains of command telling us all this we still have people getting injured in ways that shouldn't happen, equipment broken and kit lost because they decided they knew better what was safe and worth it.


Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: ballz on June 12, 2018, 18:04:16
Not completely - you still have a choice.  Drive your car without the approval to do so.  Nothing stopping you from doing that other than if you want to be claim your travel expenses.  I have a few members that have opted to do that.  You can also choice to take the required leave and drive as long as you want.

Uh huh. And that is sadly what many are resorting to. What an excellent mentality, just great leadership. Great "look after your people" instincts. Instead of fixing a shitty policy, just tell people to pick the lesser of the available evils and suck it up. And the lesser evil is "no support" option. Pretty sad when the "no support" option is better than the support currently offered under the policy. Why waste time writing a policy that doesn't frig the member we are about to send on a 5-6 month tasking.

NJC does state they are restricted to 500kms a day.

In practice, their supervisor asks them what they want to do, and selects that as the preferred method.

The point was if they didn't have the 500km limit for your travel day which you are on duty for and you decided to drive 1000km. 

I'm not debating the travel day. If I'm on duty, I'll only drive 200km if the CoC decides to be that silly. No skin off my back.

Yet despite all these regulations, policies and chains of command telling us all this we still have people getting injured in ways that shouldn't happen, equipment broken and kit lost because they decided they knew better what was safe and worth it.

I spent five years in 2 RCR with more people driving back and forth to Petawawa/Meaford/others than I could possibly count. I had to have been there for literally over 1000 people going to Petawawa and back. I do no recall a single accident, certainly no grievous injuries. The CAF is a huge organization, will they happen? For sure they will. But are you really going to advocate treating everyone like a damn infant to avoid a risk that is essentially negligible. That's a babysitting mentality, full stop.

I can't help but think some people in this thread have clearly spent so long in the institution they're not capable of objectively criticizing it, and instead naturally revert to defending it.
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: SupersonicMax on June 12, 2018, 22:31:35
How about this to circumvent the problem:

-Sgt X has a TD to Y
-Sgt will be on leave (weekend leave) within 500 km of Y the Sunday preceding
-Sgt X claims the one day he is entitled through a cost comparison.

In practice: Sgt X drives to within 500 km of Y to he there sometimes on the Sunday and keeps driving to Y.
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Lumber on June 13, 2018, 00:07:41
How about this to circumvent the problem:

-Sgt X has a TD to Y
-Sgt will be on leave (weekend leave) within 500 km of Y the Sunday preceding
-Sgt X claims the one day he is entitled through a cost comparison.

In practice: Sgt X drives to within 500 km of Y to he there sometimes on the Sunday and keeps driving to Y.

Yea that would work, this is one of the ways that the Class-A members get around the policy.

POMV travel from my unit to Halifax requires 4 days of travel. But, we can't tell a Class-A member what they can and can't do when they aren't on contract. So, if the Class-A tell sme that personal circumstance will result in them being in Fredericton the day before their course, and they would like us to arrange travel from there to Halifax(using POMV), who am I to argue? I don't ask why you're in Fredericton or what you're doing ther, but it's within 1 day's travel, so fill your boots.

Supersonic Max, cases that I don't think this would work, however, would be for extremely long distances.

If a soldier of mine was going from Edmonton to Borden for a 3 months course, and they didn't want to take annual leave, but said to me that between Friday night when they finish work, and Sunday morning, they will have travelled by POMV 2800km of the 3300km distance, and therefore would then be within 500km, I just can't see it as a safe decision to sign off on that plan. I would tell them no, CAL is the selected method, Sunday is your duty travel day, and you will report to Edmonton Airport for your flight; here's your ticket.  :2c:
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: ballz on June 13, 2018, 23:26:07
How about this to circumvent the problem:

-Sgt X has a TD to Y
-Sgt will be on leave (weekend leave) within 500 km of Y the Sunday preceding
-Sgt X claims the one day he is entitled through a cost comparison.

In practice: Sgt X drives to within 500 km of Y to he there sometimes on the Sunday and keeps driving to Y.

In theory, this "works." In practice, is the Commanding Officer of every unit going to start doing this? Is Pte / Cpl / MCpl etc going to have the conversation we are now having, and appeal for reason, etc. I'm a Captain and while I intend to go this route soon, I already know I'll be hitting obstacles because people don't understand policy / don't think outside the box / apparently might agree with the babysitting aspect. (I'm also sure I'll run into the "well, I won't approve your weekend leave pass to be outside the local area."). How many lower ranks are going to have that fight?

If the policy is such that we need to circumvent it to come to some form of rational answer, it's a bad policy. If people are choosing "no support" over the support offered, that's probably some pretty shitty support.

Yea that would work, this is one of the ways that the Class-A members get around the policy.

POMV travel from my unit to Halifax requires 4 days of travel. But, we can't tell a Class-A member what they can and can't do when they aren't on contract. So, if the Class-A tell sme that personal circumstance will result in them being in Fredericton the day before their course, and they would like us to arrange travel from there to Halifax(using POMV), who am I to argue? I don't ask why you're in Fredericton or what you're doing ther, but it's within 1 day's travel, so fill your boots.

Supersonic Max, cases that I don't think this would work, however, would be for extremely long distances.

If a soldier of mine was going from Edmonton to Borden for a 3 months course, and they didn't want to take annual leave, but said to me that between Friday night when they finish work, and Sunday morning, they will have travelled by POMV 2800km of the 3300km distance, and therefore would then be within 500km, I just can't see it as a safe decision to sign off on that plan. I would tell them no, CAL is the selected method, Sunday is your duty travel day, and you will report to Edmonton Airport for your flight; here's your ticket.  :2c:

That would require allowing the Chain of Command to use its discretion. Not only does the policy babysit everyone, it also points to a severe lack of trust in the judgement of COs.

If a soldier of mine was going from Edmonton to Borden and reporting on Monday, I'd probably support them getting a short day or two so they have adequate time after the 2x special to do the drive... 3 days is plenty of time to go 3300km. If not short, then annual... but I wouldn't demand they take 5 annual as the policy does (1 travel, 1 weekend, 5 annual) because that's just ridiculous. We may disagree slightly on use of short, etc, but that's a judgement call for a CO to make.... not TB / DCBA.

There is no reason the Crown can't allow for this and also "here's the $500 it costs to fly you there as well, since we would have had to pay that anyway."
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: SupersonicMax on June 13, 2018, 23:51:26
Agreed on all points Ballz.

Quote
t also points to a severe lack of trust in the judgement of COs.

This is true in many aspect of our policies and is a broader problem.  Policies need some vagueness to them to allow COs to cater to different situations.

In the PMV case, it'd be a CoC's call to ensure their members' plan is safe and sound, and apply the policy with some discretions.  I really dislike policies that not only tell you what to do but also how to do it...
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: CountDC on June 14, 2018, 17:05:13
Understand  things look really different from the various view points.  I have seen it where a little reserve group of about 20 felt that all the regulations coming out were aimed specifically at them.   One thing some don't realize is that TB is not writing policy for the CAF.  It is writing for every federal government employee in every department.  No idea what current figures are but at one point it was around 200 departments and over 400k employees.  CAF does not have the right to expand or give benefits to its members, if it does want to give something it must negotiate with TB and give up something that of course someone else would complain about so we mostly follow the NJC.

As for CofC and flexibility although I often wish there was more I am sure there are enough on here that can testify to various abuses over the years from those CofC that did have the flexibility.  Off the top, CO's (LCols) ordering their staff to book them first/business class when they were not entitled to it and advised of it, FTUC staff  at reserve units issued outlandish work schedules, refusing leave all year and then telling the members as they had not used it they lost it as leave is a privilege not an entitlement, do it or I will have you fired from your class b (doesn't work too well when the person is actually reg f), you will drive 700 kms to deliver this, return the next day for the parade night and no we don't care that there is snow in the mountains.  Some of these I have seen within the last 4 years (yeah, after the CFTDI was released and they were briefed a few times on the mileage restriction). 

The rules are tighter but not totally unworkable.  Yes I miss the days of "hypothetical trip" claims and wish we could still do them as it was a lot easier than the cost comparison/leave crap but as it is my job to play within (or at least on the edge) of the rules I do it while complaining.  There are some thing's that I wish more would complain about to the right people and even redress but so far haven't seen it happen in my area despite my attempts.  Instead all I see is people complaining to and blaming the clerks as if they are the policy writer.  Personally don't know any clerks that like these changes as it just made the job harder.  Like a clerk would write a policy that all travel must be approved by the CO prior to travel.  I for one was quite happy to approve it rather than bothering the CO that should have more important things to deal with.  Sure the odd exceptional case but most claims are standard.

Lumbar:  " I would tell them no, CAL is the selected method, Sunday is your duty travel day, and you will report to Edmonton Airport for your flight; here's your ticket."

Of course if they decided to drive anyway there really isn't anything anyone could do other than not give them their mileage and meals on the claim.  I did give them flack for not cancelling the flight prior so that we were reimbursed instead of getting a credit that may not get used (they were linked to the name at the time).
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 15, 2018, 00:21:12
In theory, this "works." In practice, is the Commanding Officer of every unit going to start doing this? Is Pte / Cpl / MCpl etc going to have the conversation we are now having, and appeal for reason, etc. I'm a Captain and while I intend to go this route soon, I already know I'll be hitting obstacles because people don't understand policy / don't think outside the box / apparently might agree with the babysitting aspect. (I'm also sure I'll run into the "well, I won't approve your weekend leave pass to be outside the local area."). How many lower ranks are going to have that fight?


What leave pass for normal weekend leave?  My entire Wing...they're not used because the CFLPM states they are not required.  Can/does the CAF tell me I am only allowed to travel 500km/day on a normal Saturday off?  Or, if I put in for 2 wknd/1 ann leave day to travel "A to B and rtn", no one even considers how far I am driving because it is non-duty travel.

Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: NFLD Sapper on June 15, 2018, 06:48:40
What leave pass for normal weekend leave?  My entire Wing...they're not used because the CFLPM states they are not required.  Can/does the CAF tell me I am only allowed to travel 500km/day on a normal Saturday off?  Or, if I put in for 2 wknd/1 ann leave day to travel "A to B and rtn", no one even considers how far I am driving because it is non-duty travel.

For my CoC a weekend leave pass is only needed for staff if they leave the province, students on the other hand need one if the go further than Fredericton-Moncton-Saint John area.
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: CountDC on June 15, 2018, 12:18:35
This is from the CPM CFTDI faq Last revised 3/19/2018, this is for members requesting to travel PMV.  Thinking this may be the part that is creating the annual leave issue as in the example used it would take some.  Can't cover 8 days with short and weekend. :

I am currently posted to Vancouver, can I take my PMV if I need to go to Borden on course even if they are 4,296 Km apart?

Maybe. You will need to sign both the CFTDTI Annex A Member Request To Use PMV Acknowledgment of Limitations for the PMV Waiver and the DGCB/DCBA cost comparison worksheet when your intent is to request use of your PMV rather than a more economical and practical mode of transportation. You will be entitled to only the first day of travel to the destination (500 kilometres) and only for the first day of return travel (500 kilometres) kilometric rate for the direct road and this would include any distance traveled by ferry. You will also be required to utilize sufficient paid leave for each additional day of travel over 500 kilometres (duty travel day). In the interest of safe driving, you are required to take 8 paid leave days each way, in addition to the one day of duty travel each way. If you
don't have sufficient annual leave remaining, the CO has no choice but to deny PMV travel, in favour of the most economical and practical method of transportation (in this case, commercial air travel). PMV is not considered the most economical and practical method of transportation, except where the CO requests the use of PMV, IAW the CFTDTI.

NOTE: The Crown accepts no responsibility or liability to the member for, the loss of or damage to a PMV on duty travel and deductible insurance payments in respect of a PMV used on duty travel. As such, a member cannot be ordered and is never obliged to use a PMV for duty travel.

and for reservist:

I am a reservist on Class A service serving in Halifax and am going on TD to Borden and wish to take my PMV in lieu of the more economical and practical mode of transportation. Am I permitted to utilize my PMV in this case?

No. Not in this scenario based on distance to the location of TD. The preferred method of travel would be commercial air travel, and you would arrive and return within a few hours to your destination, hence one day duty travel each way. As kilometric travel is more than 500 km, a member requires paid leave during the non-duty travel days. Class A members are on duty status for the duration of their tasking, and that would be covered when travelling via the most economical and practical mode of transportation. Since paid leave is not factored in the structure of Class A Reserve service, reimbursement for the use of PMV is not authorized. If a Class A member still wishes to use their PMV for travel to the duty destination, there is no requirement to request a waiver of entitlements as there is no entitlement in lieu of the approving authority’s selected mode of transportation. You are choosing to travel at personal expense.

Had one case that was kind of the reverse of starting/ending TD at an alternate point.  Class A mbr was travelling just within the limit for TD but had indicated as he was given a day off after his arrival he planned to go and visit his mother approximately 120 kms away.  The clerk didn't want to do the claim as it was now over the daily limit.  I had to step in and pointed out that what he did on his td was not our concern, it was between him and his supervisor.  If they gave him a day off after he arrived then he could go wherever he wanted. He checked in on schedule, got dismissed and went on his way.
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: ballz on June 15, 2018, 18:57:03
What leave pass for normal weekend leave?  My entire Wing...they're not used because the CFLPM states they are not required.  Can/does the CAF tell me I am only allowed to travel 500km/day on a normal Saturday off?  Or, if I put in for 2 wknd/1 ann leave day to travel "A to B and rtn", no one even considers how far I am driving because it is non-duty travel.

Would really prefer if we didn't turn yet another thread into a argument about whether or not a weekend leave pass is required or not. I agree with you on weekend leave passes as was clear in the thread specifically about that topic, but the reality is, it is an obstacle I would run into, and so will most other people.

CAF does not have the right to expand or give benefits to its members, if it does want to give something it must negotiate with TB and give up something that of course someone else would complain about so we mostly follow the NJC.

The change I am proposing would not cost the taxpayer's an extra dime, so I'm not convinced it would need "negotiating."

I'll also point out that the original comment that started this was...
I sincerely hope the BS around POMVs (it's more than just the Class A stuff that's ridiculous on this issue) is near the top of this list of concerns being brought to the TB... but somehow I doubt it.

So I'm not sure why you're talking about how the CAF can't expand / change the benefits. I am simply remarking that I hope DCBA is bringing this issue up on our behalf to the TB. I am fully aware that CAF doesn't get to write its own policy.

As for CofC and flexibility although I often wish there was more I am sure there are enough on here that can testify to various abuses over the years from those CofC that did have the flexibility.  Off the top, CO's (LCols) ordering their staff to book them first/business class when they were not entitled to it and advised of it, FTUC staff  at reserve units issued outlandish work schedules, refusing leave all year and then telling the members as they had not used it they lost it as leave is a privilege not an entitlement, do it or I will have you fired from your class b (doesn't work too well when the person is actually reg f), you will drive 700 kms to deliver this, return the next day for the parade night and no we don't care that there is snow in the mountains.  Some of these I have seen within the last 4 years (yeah, after the CFTDI was released and they were briefed a few times on the mileage restriction).

Almost all of those are issues of accountability (not policy flexibility) which the CAF is terrible at and I could start a whole other thread about that issue. But I don't see how that applies to this particular problem. There is no way to abuse the policy wording I am suggesting, it can only help the member. If the CO tried to screw someone around, the member can just withdraw their request to take their own POMV.

Lumbar:  " I would tell them no, CAL is the selected method, Sunday is your duty travel day, and you will report to Edmonton Airport for your flight; here's your ticket."

Of course if they decided to drive anyway there really isn't anything anyone could do other than not give them their mileage and meals on the claim.  I did give them flack for not cancelling the flight prior so that we were reimbursed instead of getting a credit that may not get used (they were linked to the name at the time).

If they don't show up to where they are supposed to be, at the time they are supposed to be there, they're AWOL. Plus they would have disobeyed a lawful command. There are remedial measures available as well. There is plenty that can be done to deal with this, this goes back to the accountability issue. Obviously this happened to you, did you recommend any of these things?
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 17, 2018, 11:02:44
Would really prefer if we didn't turn yet another thread into a argument about whether or not a weekend leave pass is required or not. I agree with you on weekend leave passes as was clear in the thread specifically about that topic, but the reality is, it is an obstacle I would run into, and so will most other people.

The more important part of my point was intended around the "can the CAF tell me how far I can drive on a normal weekend off or during Annual Leave? 

The answer is no, of course, because it is non-duty travel.  Any injuries, etc are not related to duty.  So why is it different if I am travelling from Point A to Point B and using Annual Leave days??  If I am on Ann Leave I am not on duty travel, and that is what this ****** stupid policy basically ends up doing;  telling the mbr what they can do on their own time.

End of the day, its a shitty policy that has yet to be defended well to justify it. 

Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: ballz on June 17, 2018, 11:35:21
The more important part of my point was intended around the "can the CAF tell me how far I can drive on a normal weekend off or during Annual Leave? 

The answer is no, of course, because it is non-duty travel.  Any injuries, etc are not related to duty.  So why is it different if I am travelling from Point A to Point B and using Annual Leave days??  If I am on Ann Leave I am not on duty travel, and that is what this ****** stupid policy basically ends up doing;  telling the mbr what they can do on their own time.

End of the day, its a shitty policy that has yet to be defended well to justify it.

Ah sorry then... Yes, as I said, the policy is literally trying to suck and blow at the same time. "You're on your own time and your own dime, but you must take enough of your own time, using your own dime, as would be req'd if you were on duty.... but you're free to use the leave however you want instead of driving, aren't we generous?"

The effect is that you're basically forfeiting heaps of compensation in return for "500km*mileage rate."
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Lumber on June 17, 2018, 12:55:49
It seems stupid, but the CAF doesn't want to be liable if you get  in an accident for driving for too long a one time, and I fully understand that and reall don't have an issue with it.

Now, should it be 500km per day? No, I think 800km is more reasonable.
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 17, 2018, 12:58:46
It seems stupid, but the CAF doesn't want to be liable if you get  in an accident for driving for too long a one time, and I fully understand that and reall don't have an issue with it.

Now, should it be 500km per day? No, I think 800km is more reasonable.

Groovy.  Now, explain to me how this DOESN'T apply to leave such as Annual, Special or Short.  Does the CAF not 'want to be liable" then too?  Because, if I am on Ann Leave as part of travel from my normal place of duty to TD/AP on course, etc...I'm still...on Annual Leave, let's say.  If I am on leave, I am not on duty.  if I am not on duty, how can the CAF be liable?

Let's just face it here;  it is a stupid policy that needs to be challenged and removed.
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: ballz on June 17, 2018, 13:52:20
It seems stupid, but the CAF doesn't want to be liable if you get  in an accident for driving for too long a one time, and I fully understand that and reall don't have an issue with it.

And if I am on annual leave, they are not liable. So you don't have an issue with a policy that screws the member based on a completely false idea that it somehow absolves the CAF of liability that they never had to worry about to begin with?

It seems stupid because it is stupid, and it's just blatantly not true. Next we'll be trying to tell members they can't travel from Fredericton to Ottawa for the long weekend without 5 days of leave because they need two days to get there and two days to get back "or else the CAF will be liable if you get in an accident on your way home." "We're not saying you need to drive it over 2 days by the way, just that you need to take a minimum of 5 days of leave for the trip. We're reasonable like that."

Now, should it be 500km per day? No, I think 800km is more reasonable.

1000km would be "reasonable" if it weren't unreasonable to treat CAF members like kids and their COs like teen-aged babysitters with no ability to actually use any kind of discretion.
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Lumber on June 17, 2018, 16:43:15
And if I am on annual leave, they are not liable. So you don't have an issue with a policy that screws the member based on a completely false idea that it somehow absolves the CAF of liability that they never had t 7o worry about to begin with?

This has nothing to do with annual slave or the annual leave policy. This is about travel policy. The CAF isn't dodging liability for each individual trip, they are dodging liability for the entire travel policy.

If we instead had a policy that allowed CO's the discretion to order their members to travel whatever distance they wanted, you would undoubtedly, eventually, end up with numerous cases of CO's abusing their authority and order ing members to drive unreasonable distances. You'd have accidents, you'd have lawsuits.

The only way the CAF can absolve themselves of this potential liability is they have to take away that authority from the CO. Problem is, the only way to do THAT is to take away the ability of EVERYONE to make that judgment call.

Further,  your example of travel from Fredericton to Ottawa is flawed, or at least, it's like you're stating facts that make my argument, not your own. If ever a member was required by tasking/cftpo to be in Ottawa for the weekend, they would provide them with a method of travel appropriate to the circumstance. If for whatever reason they felt pomv was appropriate, or, If the member requested to use it, they would need to ensure he has at least 2(3?) days to make the drive.

Why would the CAF either order, request, or allow the member the ability to drive an unsafe distance, when CAL is an option. The safe driving distance for every person is different, and the CAF isn't going to allow each member to "declare" THEIR safe driving stance, so a standard must be set. It's set at 500. Which is dumb.

#MakePMV800Again
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: ballz on June 17, 2018, 17:24:05
If we instead had a policy that allowed CO's the discretion to order their members to travel whatever distance they wanted, you would undoubtedly, eventually, end up with numerous cases of CO's abusing their authority and order ing members to drive unreasonable distances. You'd have accidents, you'd have lawsuits.

Are we even having the same conversation? We're talking about when a member requests to use their POMV, and you're talking about when the CO selects POMV as the preferred method.

The issue you are describing is *not relevant* to the case when a member is asking to drive his POMV *during his (insert type here) leave.*

We are *not* talking about lifting the restriction placed upon the CoC when they select POMV or rental as the preferred mode if travel. I agree 800km in this case would be more reasonable than 500km, but that's not what we're even discussing.

The only way the CAF can absolve themselves of this potential liability is they have to take away that authority from the CO.

I'll say it again, the CAF is not liable for a member travelling while they are on leave.

Further,  your example of travel from Fredericton to Ottawa is flawed, or at least, it's like you're stating facts that make my argument, not your own. If ever a member was required by tasking/cftpo to be in Ottawa for the weekend, they would provide them with a method of travel appropriate to the circumstance. If for whatever reason they felt pomv was appropriate, or, If the member requested to use it, they would need to ensure he has at least 2(3?) days to make the drive.

You're really not tracking the example put forth. I'm not talking about a tasking. I'm talking about if a member wants to travel to Ottawa for, I dunno, a Senators game on Saturday night. It's a long weekend. He plans to drive on Friday, and drive on Sunday.

If the CAF can tell a member they need to take 7 leave days to drive from Edmonton to Borden for a tasking "or else the CAF could be liable for an accident that you get into while you are on leave," the next logical step is that the CAF can tell people they can't drive Fredericton to Ottawa on a long weekend without taking 5 days leave (2 days travel, 1 day leisure, 2 days travel) "or else the CAF could be liable for an accident that you get into while you are on leave." That is literally the same logic, and it's based on a BS reason.*

Demanding that a member who is a requesting to use POMV take 7 days of leave to drive from Edmonton to Borden for a tasking is no different then demanding a member who wants to go to Ottawa for a Sens game take 5 days of leave "or else the CAF will be liable."

*Its simply not true. The CAF is not going to be liable for a member that gets in an accident while on leave. So it would be just great if you would stop repeating that falsehood.
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Furniture on June 17, 2018, 20:03:42
Demanding that a member who is a requesting to use POMV take 7 days of leave to drive from Edmonton to Borden for a tasking is no different then demanding a member who wants to go to Ottawa for a Sens game take 5 days of leave "or else the CAF will be liable."


It is different though, if you decide that after driving from Gagetown to Quebec city that you are too tired to continue to Ottawa for the game it's not the CAF's problem. Get back to work on time on Monday, and the CAF couldn't care less about whether or not you saw the Sens lose live or on TV. If you fail to arrive on time for a tasking or course because you failed to plan properly and take enough time it is the CAF's problem. Either the work you were required to do isn't getting done, or the course training billet is wasted on a late/no show student. Therefore it's in the CAF's interest to ensure you have enough time to make the journey in a safe timeframe. 


Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: ballz on June 17, 2018, 20:19:56
It is different though, if you decide that after driving from Gagetown to Quebec city that you are too tired to continue to Ottawa for the game it's not the CAF's problem. Get back to work on time on Monday, and the CAF couldn't care less about whether or not you saw the Sens lose live or on TV. If you fail to arrive on time for a tasking or course because you failed to plan properly and take enough time it is the CAF's problem. Either the work you were required to do isn't getting done, or the course training billet is wasted on a late/no show student. Therefore it's in the CAF's interest to ensure you have enough time to make the journey in a safe timeframe.

You can make the exact same argument for getting back from the Sens game for work at 0800 on Monday morning... and your tasks on Monday morning could be to fly a plane, command a combat team in a live fire level 5 range, or be a Course O / staff / candidate on any number of in-house courses run at your unit or another local unit...

So no, it is absolutely not different.
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Furniture on June 18, 2018, 07:54:39
You can make the exact same argument for getting back from the Sens game for work at 0800 on Monday morning... and your tasks on Monday morning could be to fly a plane, command a combat team in a live fire level 5 range, or be a Course O / staff / candidate on any number of in-house courses run at your unit or another local unit...

So no, it is absolutely not different.

It is different, because the CAF didn't tell you you need to be in Ottawa at 1900 Saturday and back in Gagetown at 0800 Monday morning. When you ask permission to not travel commercial to attend a course/task the CAF is still telling you to be somewhere at a specific time. That makes it the CAF's business how you manage to accomplish that travel (itinerary), and it makes it their business to make sure you have enough time to do it.

Should the distance be longer than 500km? I think so. Should it be a free for all with people driving across the continent in three days? I don't think so, but I'm sure someone will be along shortly to let me know why it's not only possible but safe and cost effective...
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: SupersonicMax on June 18, 2018, 08:46:25
It is different, because the CAF didn't tell you you need to be in Ottawa at 1900 Saturday and back in Gagetown at 0800 Monday morning. When you ask permission to not travel commercial to attend a course/task the CAF is still telling you to be somewhere at a specific time. That makes it the CAF's business how you manage to accomplish that travel (itinerary), and it makes it their business to make sure you have enough time to do it.

Should the distance be longer than 500km? I think so. Should it be a free for all with people driving across the continent in three days? I don't think so, but I'm sure someone will be along shortly to let me know why it's not only possible but safe and cost effective...

We have COs.  They are selected to be in those positions.  They are generally pretty smart.  Let them decide for their people.
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Furniture on June 18, 2018, 09:24:59
That works until two COs on the same base decide their members need to take different amounts of leave to go to the same place. Lets pretend I'm back on WIN and my buddy is on CAL, we are both headed to Winnipeg for course. My CO decides I can make the drive safely in three days so I get a day of short, my buddy's CO decides that five days are needed because of unpredictable mountain weather. Now one member has to take annual to make the same drive the other member doesn't need annual for. Are both COs being reasonable? It could be argued that they both are, but now one member is at a disadvantage compared to the other.

Edit to Add: I'm not for the 500km limit, it's too short in my opinion. I just don't see the CAF abandoning the maximum distance idea, maybe extending it to 800km or more but not getting rid of it.

Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on June 18, 2018, 11:43:05
I Believe you would find that, first of all, no CO in Esquimalt would let you do that journey in 3 days. I suspect four would be the minimum, because you have a ferry crossing and the mountains. If, however, you had two different CO's requiring a different number of days of travel, and both were reasonable based on the factors each consider of importance, then that would be life, and not a "disadvantage" to one or the other member so affected. After all, they elected to travel by PMC instead of CAF provided transportation, so they have to live with the consequences of their own decision.

P.S.: I suspect you would find that, for something like that, the number of days accorded would be pretty similar from one CO to the other in the fleet. You would be amazed at the various types of "problems" we CO's discuss among ourselves to try and arrive at similar solutions and a unified approach in the fleet instead of each making our own guesses.

P.P.S.: Ships are NOT on a Base - they don't belong to CFB Esquimalt. Just a small nuance, though your example would work with various lodger units.  ;D
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Good2Golf on June 18, 2018, 12:40:02
I wonder what the CAF administration would do if they looked back into the records at the short leave I granted to members of the squadron to take their PMC on TD...naughty CO...I'll feel 'sorta bad' about it tonight while I have a wee dram after dinner.

OGBD, I fully agree with you here:
If, however, you had two different CO's requiring a different number of days of travel, and both were reasonable based on the factors each consider of importance, then that would be life, and not a "disadvantage" to one or the other member so affected. After all, they elected to travel by PMC instead of CAF provided transportation, so they have to live with the consequences of their own decision.
:nod:

Regards
G2G
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: dapaterson on June 18, 2018, 13:33:44
The problem is that dodges like short leave work for full time members, but not so much for part time members.

Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Furniture on June 18, 2018, 13:49:40
I Believe you would find that, first of all, no CO in Esquimalt would let you do that journey in 3 days. I suspect four would be the minimum, because you have a ferry crossing and the mountains. If, however, you had two different CO's requiring a different number of days of travel, and both were reasonable based on the factors each consider of importance, then that would be life, and not a "disadvantage" to one or the other member so affected. After all, they elected to travel by PMC instead of CAF provided transportation, so they have to live with the consequences of their own decision.

P.S.: I suspect you would find that, for something like that, the number of days accorded would be pretty similar from one CO to the other in the fleet. You would be amazed at the various types of "problems" we CO's discuss among ourselves to try and arrive at similar solutions and a unified approach in the fleet instead of each making our own guesses.

P.P.S.: Ships are NOT on a Base - they don't belong to CFB Esquimalt. Just a small nuance, though your example would work with various lodger units.  ;D

Agreed on all points, it was simply a scenario to point out that even a system at CO's discretion would lead to complaints and "unfairness" and a whole thread on army.ca to sort out a better way.
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Good2Golf on June 18, 2018, 13:50:20
The problem is that dodges like short leave work for full time members, but not so much for part time members.

...until component alignment occurs...   :waiting:
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: dapaterson on June 18, 2018, 13:51:34
I think that is scheduled for the same day that DND's OPCMA becomes 4.
Title: Re: Daily Travel Limit on TD
Post by: Good2Golf on June 18, 2018, 13:54:31
I think that is scheduled for the same day that DND's OPCMA becomes 4.

I laughed at that...my boss was wondering what's so funny...I said, "DND, OPMCA, 4 - discuss..."

He laughed too...  ;D