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The Quartermaster's Stores => Uniforms => Topic started by: Iterator on March 12, 2006, 06:05:05

Title: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Iterator on March 12, 2006, 06:05:05
Some people serve honorably, are never deployed, and leave before 12 years, why not have a medal that shows that they did serve in their nation's military?

And, as a visible display of service, aren't there more meaningful intervals of service other than the 12th, 22nd, and 32nd years?

How about recognizing:
   - anyone who has served and has been released (except for disciplinary reasons)
   - or, if not discharged, at 2.5 years (generally before the end of the 1st contract),
   - at 5 years (generally, sort of, before the end of the 2nd contract),
   - at 10 years (the year at which you can leave and still be considered Retired - Note: Personal bias - left after 10 years of service)
   - and at every 10 years after that (uhmm... just because it's easy to count by tens)

Here are a few ideas to compare:

-Option 1
-Current CD. Marking - 12, 22, 32, etc
-Medal at 12 years
-1st Clasp at 22 years (rosette)
-Another Clasp every 10 years (additional rosettes)
-(e.g. 32, 42, etc)
-
-
-Pro: No changes required
-Con: Limited information displayed
-Option 2
-Progressive CD. Marking - 2.5 (or less), 5, 10, 20, 30, etc
-Medal with 1st Clasp after honorable discharge
-or Medal with 1st Clasp at 2.5 years (silver leaf)
-Replaces 1st Clasp at 5 years (gold leaf)
-Replaces 1st Clasp at 10 years (red leaf)
-Another Clasp every 10 years (additional red leaves)
-(e.g. 20, 30, etc)
-Pro: Recognizes all military service
-Con: More than just a basic change
-Option 3
-Progressive CD. Marking - 5 (or less), 10, 15, etc
-Medal 1st Clasp after honorable discharge
-or Medal with 1st Clasp at 5 years (silver leaf)
-Another Clasp every 5 years (additional silver leaves)
-(e.g. 10, 15, etc)
-
-
-Pro: Recognizes all military service
-Con: Those clasps will get crowded
-Option 4
-Lower Sleeve Arm Stripes. Marking - 5, 10, 15, etc
-1st Stripe at 5 years
-Another Stripe every 5 years
-(e.g. 10, 15, etc)
-
-
-
-Pro: Requires no change to the CD
-Con: Only useful on tunic
-Option 5
-Other. Marking - post an idea
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

The costs should be minimal since you are already tracked for the CD, and I am Not advocating a new design (except maybe for the clasps).

Post Nominals can be handled in a few ways:
   - Grant them at either 10, 15, or 20 years (depending on Option)
   - Stop using them
   - Stop using them except for those who were awarded the CD prior to changes
   - Grant them to everyone with the new CD


Some important points:

The Canadian Forces Decoration is not just a "time served" award, if you need more information try http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/018-09_e.asp (http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/018-09_e.asp), or http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/honours_awards/engraph/honour_awards_e.asp?cat=3&Q_ID=92 (http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/honours_awards/engraph/honour_awards_e.asp?cat=3&Q_ID=92). For the Long Service / Good Conduct awards replaced by the CD try http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/honours_awards/engraph/long_service_e.asp?cat=3 (http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/honours_awards/engraph/long_service_e.asp?cat=3).

Though this may have a minimal affect on some peoples' morale/pride (or sense of order), this change would not increase the operational capability of the CF. That there are more pressing issues is already known.
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Patrolman on March 12, 2006, 07:49:08
 To me it is a long service medal given for long a service period. Giving it to someone who serves 2.5,5 or even ten years would not make it a lon service medal. Changing the policy after all these years would diminish the contribution thousands of others have made in the past under current requirements.
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: BernDawg on March 12, 2006, 09:37:57
The CD marks a commitment to the CF.  Two and a half years is hardly a commitment (or 5, maybe 10).  If your leaving the forces is honourable you'll get a spiffy certificate for your "I love me" wall.  If you want a CD then commit yourself to the service.
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: GO!!! on March 12, 2006, 12:09:42
Iterator,

This seems like an attempt to suggest more impressive uniforms are required for those who are not deployed, or serve for short periods of time.

Seeing as the medals/decorations we recieve are based on very select criteria, I fail to see why this should be "opened up" to more applicants.

I look at the DEUs in my unit, and I see medals for deployments, jump wings, pathfinder torches, commendations from the CiC on down, a few CDs, assaulter badges, wound stripes, and ranger tabs. Why should those who completed demanding trg courses, served overseas or were wounded, be recognised in a similar manner to those who elected to stay in Canada, or took a trade that would see them safely out of harm's way?

Our medals system is fine the way it is. You do the time, you get the gong, stay here, collect your CD, do not pass go - your choice.
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: geo on March 12, 2006, 12:12:37
The brits have brought in a medal for shorter service - something along the 8 yr range.
will look it up and post reference

T'was felt that 12 yrs is a wee bit too long...

then again - after 12 yrs - why did they decide to move forward in 10 yr increments thereafter?
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Kasanika on March 12, 2006, 13:15:55
I voted option 5.
Leave the current CD system alone. I say this now since I have mine, if this poll was done last year my answer would have been different.
But...
Institute a generic "Service" medal, so on Remembrance day, job interviews, weddings and funerals you can let people know you were in the CF. The upshot is it'll let the general public know just how many people have served in the CF, and it can be an ice breaker if you see someone in an awkward social setting with one as well, it gives you something to talk about.
Since everyone and their monkey would receive one I suppose the actual prestige won't be that high, but it is something.
I see it akin to those medals everyone in the CF received who were in during WWI and WWII regardless of length of service or place of service.
All the best,
Bart
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: George Wallace on March 12, 2006, 13:29:24
I voted option 5.
Leave the current CD system alone. I say this now since I have mine, if this poll was done last year my answer would have been different.
???

That is option # 1 !


But...
Institute a generic "Service" medal, so on Remembrance day, job interviews, weddings and funerals you can let people know you were in the CF. The upshot is it'll let the general public know just how many people have served in the CF, and it can be an ice breaker if you see someone in an awkward social setting with one as well, it gives you something to talk about.
Since everyone and their monkey would receive one I suppose the actual prestige won't be that high, but it is something.
I see it akin to those medals everyone in the CF received who were in during WWI and WWII regardless of length of service or place of service.
All the best,
Bart

That is not a CD, but a whole different Medal.

I love people who want us to start looking like a bunch of "Boy Scouts".  I see they have been greatly influenced by the cretin way of thinking.

If you can't do the time, don't whine about not getting a medal.  You are not dedicated enough to be rewarded.

I agree with GO!!! on this. 

You serve your country and get the reward.  You do the Tours and make the commitment, then you get the gongs.  After a while you will only want a bigger chest to put them on. 

Iterator......you are a crap disturber who really should take some time to know what it is that you suggest in these forums.  Next time you have a bright idea, please put more thought into what you are doing.  Perhaps, even refrain from doing it.
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Trinity on March 12, 2006, 13:35:33


I dunno...

IF it was necessary... IF.. THE BIG IF....

I could see #4 being satisfactory

But I have my CD... and NO OTHER MEDAL...
(and I'm a Lt.. I am the joke of the CF     Lt with or Maj w/o)

Still, there are enough "patches/badges" that require effort to get.
I don't want to get a badge/medal for every little thing like other countries.
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Kat Stevens on March 12, 2006, 13:43:26
How about the StJD (St Jean Decoration)  for completing basic in fewer than 3 tries?  The Meritorious Moving Medal for being posted more than once in any three year period?  The Can-ex Barbershop Loyalty Medal with Crossed Scissors  for getting your hair cut by Bob the Butcher for more than three years and retaining most of both ears?  Anyone? Anyone....?  Bueller...?
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Michael Dorosh on March 12, 2006, 14:01:55
I'd like to see the return of Good Conduct Badges (http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/mediawiki-1.5.5/index.php?title=Good_Conduct_Badges) for privates and corporals; they are traditional and they reward long service worker bees (derisively called "career corporals" in some parts).  And they would be in addition to the CD, not in place of.  Anyone promoted to Sr. NCO rank is automatically assumed to be of good character and thus would not be entitled to them.

Otherwise, I agree with Tom's statements. 

And I also don't see the point in rewarding someone with a medal for doing only 2.5 years; this is the point at which a soldier has finally done all the hard work of becoming proficient in his trade and in the reserves may even qualify for minor supervisory duties (I take it promotion to Cpl in the regs is still four years?).  After all the money spent on wages and kit and ammunition and rations just to get a guy up to speed in his job, why on earth reward him for quitting just after he's learned something?  He's been a colossal waste of money.
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Kasanika on March 12, 2006, 14:16:22
George,
I voted 5 not 1 because I don't agree with the status quo on only the CD.
Quote
I love people who want us to start looking like a bunch of "Boy Scouts".  
Do you think WWII vets look like "Boy Scouts" because of all the medals they received just for being in during WWII?
 I don't.
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Allan Luomala on March 12, 2006, 14:23:03
As soon as I read this, I KNEW that the person (Iterator) posing the question had less than 12 years in (i.e no CD). I should have been a cop.....

I think the CD is somewhat of a joke (contrary to EVERY CO's little speech prior to issuing said "decoration"). "12 years of undetected crime......" is but one of the lesser slurs directed at it. If it's to be given out at all (I didn't bother reading the different polls questions, as I didn't vote (even though the time taken to vote IS pensionable time  ;D)) it should be at the end of your career, as a "see ya, glad to know you" thing, and could be worn on the Legion blazer, or whatnot.

IMO, something that EVERYONE gets (well, assuming they serve the 12 years in this case) isn't worth having (somewhat like the Employee of the Month Award at the Springfield Nuclear Power Plant, even an inanimate carbon rod receives it).

Al
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: George Wallace on March 12, 2006, 14:27:03
George,
I voted 5 not 1 because I don't agree with the status quo on only the CD.Do you think WWII vets look like "Boy Scouts" because of all the medals they received just for being in during WWII?
 I don't.
No!  I don't think that WW II Vets look like "Boy Scouts" because of all their medals.  They went through "Hell" to earn them.

I do object to someone getting a medal for surviving Recruit School and then quiting the CF after getting a Trade (Would that be within the 2.5 year timeframe?).  That shows me that a person is being rewarded for being a self-centered quitter, who didn't joint the CF for the right reasons - but still thinks they deserve some sort of reward for doing so.

A medal means something to me.  It means that the person wearing it has shown a commitment and dedication to the CF.  To degrade it and give it to anyone and his dog, does not show any respect to all who have gone before.  The last thing we need now is to start going through all of the Service Records of every Former Member of the CF and it's previous incarnations to award a Medal to them for having served 2.5, 5,......years.  Do you realize the costs in time and money that this project would take?

This is another "Troll" question and I am tired of it.
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Nerf herder on March 12, 2006, 14:59:48
If the CD goes that route....it'll be like a TFA NSE coin, like the one's they passed out during our tour.    ::)

"Presented to Cpl Bloggins ..... for special projects" (WTF is that?)

"Presented to Cpl No Name ..... for repairing a roof" (he was an engineer)

"Presented to Cpl Mech ... for recovering vehicles" (that was his job)

It got to the point that the photographer got one for taking pictures, at least he threw it back to the Adj...said it was worthless.

If it were to go that route for the CD...it'd be worthless.

My $0.02 worth

Regards
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Iterator on March 12, 2006, 15:14:23
This seems like an attempt to suggest more impressive uniforms are required for those who are not deployed, or serve for short periods of time.

Seeing as the medals/decorations we recieve are based on very select criteria, I fail to see why this should be "opened up" to more applicants.

...Why should those who completed demanding trg courses, served overseas or were wounded, be recognised in a similar manner to those who elected to stay in Canada, or took a trade that would see them safely out of harm's way?

...

I guess I should've included the option to get rid of the CD altogether.


then again - after 12 yrs - why did they decide to move forward in 10 yr increments thereafter?

It does seem odd that it didn't stick with 12 year increments. That would seem to make more sense and also follow the traditional Long Service medals.



...
I love people who want us to start looking like a bunch of "Boy Scouts".  I see they have been greatly influenced by the cretin way of thinking.

If you can't do the time, don't whine about not getting a medal.  You are not dedicated enough to be rewarded.
...

Iterator......you are a crap disturber who really should take some time to know what it is that you suggest in these forums.  Next time you have a bright idea, please put more thought into what you are doing.  Perhaps, even refrain from doing it.

Couldn't the same "Boy Scout" comment apply to the issue at 12 years? Was there a specific reason to determine that 12 years was the "Boy Scout" cut-off?

Unless you object - I'm going to have to quote you in my Signature block.


I'd like to see the return of ...Good Conduct Badges...  And they would be in addition to the CD, not in place of.


 After all the money spent on wages and kit and ammunition and rations just to get a guy up to speed in his job, why on earth reward him for quitting just after he's learned something?  He's been a colossal waste of money.

Yes, that option (the arm badges) would be with the current CD. I tried not to leave any ambiguities but I did miss that one.


If it is such a waste then why allow short contracts?



As soon as I read this, I KNEW that the person (Iterator) posing the question had less than 12 years in (i.e no CD). I should have been a cop.....

IMO, something that EVERYONE gets (well, assuming they serve the 12 years in this case) isn't worth having (somewhat like the Employee of the Month Award at the Springfield Nuclear Power Plant, even an inanimate carbon rod receives it).

Al

I'm not sure you should be so quick about a career change, after all I did state that Note: Personal bias - left after 10 years of service :) . However it is up to you to decide whether I would have asked the same question if I had left after 5 or 15 years (I submit that I would have).

Again: I guess I should've included the option to get rid of the CD altogether. However I hope you selected the last option.



...  It means that the person wearing it has shown a commitment and dedication to the CF.  To degrade it and give it to anyone and his dog, does not show any respect to all who have gone before.  The last thing we need now is to start going through all of the Service Records of every Former Member of the CF and it's previous incarnations to award a Medal to them for having served 2.5, 5,......years.  Do you realize the costs in time and money that this project would take?

This is another "Troll" question and I am tired of it.

The CF already tracks a CD forecast doesn't it? As for former members - you could always charge a fee and have them provide their own records (or charge a higher fee for those who don't submit records).

Troll? Everyone aside from yourself seems to be able to respond in a reasonable manner, or not respond at all. I urge you not to trash the topic, especially as it is going your way.





Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: MikeL on March 12, 2006, 17:09:25
I'm with GO!!! on this one.

Only thing I would like too see would be something similar too the US Marine/Navy Combat Action Ribbon or US Army's CIB, CAB an CMB.
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: IN HOC SIGNO on March 12, 2006, 17:30:03
I personally like the CD just the way it is. I think it does say something to people about your commitment and is a way of recognizing time in....it certainly isn't a good conduct medal as I don't know of anyone who hasn't got one lately due to bad behaviour lol. I think they do dock jail time on the CD tracker but who the heck goes to jail these days....those old boys in Edmonton are getting pretty lonely I think.

Having said that I think the rest of our Honours and Awards system really sucks. The Canada Silver Jubilee, Golden Jubilee and 125 were just bloody jokes. I would be really embarrassed to wear a 125 medal personally after seeing the way they were handed out. I thought we all should have got the Golden Jubilee medal similar to the way it was done in Britain....if you had served 1 year to the crown on the date of the anniversary of the ascension you got one....I was in London in 2002 and saw guardsman at the Palace wearing them.
I would hate to see us go to the American system of ribbons for doing very little and unit citations but there are certain things that could be recognized better.

CD isn't broke...don't fix it>
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on March 12, 2006, 17:37:18
The CD is fine the way it is, to change it now, cheapens the award for those (including me) who earned it with 12 yrs or more loyal and dedicated service.

In Australia the DFLSM (Defence Force Long Service Medal) is given after 15 yrs service with clasps every 5 yrs thereafter.

The ADF realising there was no medal for those under 15 yrs (less medals for deploymenet and other reasons) came up with the ADM (Australian Defence Medal). Google this for more info, but it is given out to those with a mininum of 6 yrs service, and falls into the criteria for those who although never deployed, gave service during operations at home.

Maybe this same idea should be brought forward to the Canadian parliament? Thats however is up to you.

Cheers,

Wes
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: HFXCrow on March 12, 2006, 17:38:56
I would like to see some uniform recognition for sea time, maybe it would reduce the SLL(sick/lame/lazy) and instil some pride.
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: GO!!! on March 12, 2006, 17:53:56
Mike, HFX,

I also believe that there should be some sort of equivalency of the CIB, and some sort of recognition for combat service at sea and in the air, too many of our decorations are "I showed up" medals. I've read that 8000 SWASMs were minted, but only 750 men served in the BG!!  ???

I find it quite irksome that the SWASM I earned humping up and down mountains in +50C heat, driving through minefields and eating IMPs for six months straight is the same as the one that the navy got for patrolling the Persian Gulf. Some sort of recognition for the pointy end of all three elements would seem to be in order - BUT

We have already been down this road in the "less entitled" thread.
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Iterator on March 12, 2006, 17:57:42
CD isn't broke...don't fix it>

The CD is fine the way it is, to change it now, cheapens the award for those (including me) who earned it with 12 yrs or more loyal and dedicated service.

Maybe it can't be recognized as broken because it doesn't accomplish much to begin with.

It never occurred to me before to just stop awarding the CD but there seem to be some valid reasons:
   - It would save money from the actual award
   - It would save money because it wouldn't need to be tracked
   - It wouldn't disrespect those who have already been awarded a CD

Perhaps the Long Service award has seen its day, and recognitions should only be awarded for operational reasons.
   
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Patrolman on March 12, 2006, 18:04:13
 Now you really sound disgruntled. Just because you didn't get one does not mean it should get scrapped. Long service medals have been around for a long time and will long after we are gone I am sure. If you want one bad enough join again, serve another two years and earn it. I am looking forward to getting mine in another 2 an a half years.
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on March 12, 2006, 18:05:28
Maybe it can't be recognized as broken because it doesn't accomplish much to begin with.

You beginnig to tread on thin ice mate with such disrespectful comments like this one.

You are out of line.

I thought you would take the suggestion of the ADM and run with that rather than run the CD down. I am quite proud of my two 'peace time' gongs, and the 18 yrs 11 months, and 18 days service I did as a member of the CF.

Wes
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: HFXCrow on March 12, 2006, 18:10:09
GO:
For the record and I speak for many Navy OP APOLLOn's, the SWASM medal with the Afghanistan was not what we wanted.

The majority of us wanted the Arabian Gulf not A-stan. It was not our decision to have Afghanistan on the bar.

You cannot compare the Army and Navy roles in OP APOLLO. I deserve a medal for 72 days straight at sea. And the PPCLI definitely deserves the recognition, but you cannot compare.

When I went to OP ATHENA I brought my SWASM medal to Kabul, it means more to me now.

Crow


Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Iterator on March 12, 2006, 18:12:02
You beginnig to tread on thin ice mate with such disrespectful comments like this one.

You are out of line.

Wes

I'm not sure if you read that correctly - "it" refers to the CD, and "doesn't accomplish much" means that the CD only accomplishes the recognition of 12 years Long Service and Good Conduct. Don't read more into it than that.
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Carcharodon Carcharias on March 12, 2006, 18:14:20
I read it exactly like it was written. Plain as the nose on our faces.
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Trinity on March 12, 2006, 18:36:57

Perhaps the Long Service award has seen its day, and recognitions should only be awarded for operational reasons.
   

That doesn't even make sense...

Its not an Operational award...

And kill the CD... I'd lose it.  Even soldiers with only a few years in are
still awaiting/abiding their time till they get theirs.  I remember counting mine
down from year 6.  That was something I had to look forward too.

Its not JUST a medal.  Its also a Designation.  i.e.  Your Name CD

You don't just put it aside like it was nothing.  Lets stop letting people but B.A. or PhD
after their names, or take away the iron ring for the engineers.  Its a long 12 years
but its earned!

What is your REAL beef here.  You are all over the place. What is the REAL question
you want to ask... cause this is going every which way and your getting hammered
by a few people (justly).. which doesn't help guide you to answer the real question.
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Iterator on March 12, 2006, 18:47:21
That doesn't even make sense...

Its not an Operational award...

I'm not sure if you read that correctly - "Perhaps the Long Service award has seen its day, and recognitions should only be awarded for operational reasons." Does not imply that the CD is an operational award. The statement says that "Perhaps" only operational awards (meaning - awards for operational service, or bravery for that matter) should be used, and that Long Service recognition does not require a medal/decoration.
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Kasanika on March 12, 2006, 18:51:06
I feel the need to clarify my earlier post about a generic "CF Service" medal.
I envisioned it being issued once you take your release, people who were not entitled to any other medal would have something to wear on their blazers on special occasions. I understand it would be redundant for people with other medals but it is not primarily geared towards them. They would still be entitled to it anyway. I understand it might have limited prestige to people in the CF since everyone would get one, it would be more of a way to show civilians just how many people have served in the CF. I suppose if you released and joined up again you would were it on DEUs, but that is a limited number of people.
As for the bureaucracy of it, it wouldn't be that onerous as anyone who was entitled to a veteran's licence plate would be entitled to this medal and bureaucracies for plates already exist in most provinces.
All the best,
Bart
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: bLUE fOX on March 12, 2006, 19:19:22
just out of curiosity what is the reasoning behind twelve years? Seems to be a bit of an odd number. why not ten our fifteen? real numbers if you will. not trying to stir stuff up, just new is all.
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: axeman on March 12, 2006, 19:36:06
i also vote with GO!! on this ,now im in the navy "sigh" . after earning my UNPROFOR , NATO , SWASM ,C.D.,  with the CPSM and CINC tossed in there i was on my 3's going to a base side muster with an OS standing  around with the SWASM  on the tunic.. my course got a lot of looks as we were mostly army remusters.. lets see me with 5 an engineer with 3 an ex RCR with 3 an other ex Pat with 6 and the CINC and another 2 pers in our course with CD's .The CD's do stand out  .keep them the way they are ..
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Iterator on March 12, 2006, 20:19:30
just out of curiosity what is the reasoning behind twelve years? Seems to be a bit of an odd number. why not ten our fifteen? real numbers if you will. not trying to stir stuff up, just new is all.

From http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/honours_awards/engraph/long_service_e.asp?cat=3 (http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/honours_awards/engraph/long_service_e.asp?cat=3).
Quote
It should be noted that permanent force (regular) officers were not eligible for any long service awards as it was felt that as they held a commission, they were expected to serve honourably and for a long period of time. 

Reserve officers (except in the RCAF) were eligible for various long service decorations, therefore granting them the use of postnominals while other ranks were eligible for various long service and good conduct medals, without postnominals.


Why at 12 years and then every 10 years? I don't know, I was also hoping someone would have an answer.

It doesn't seem intuitive from the awards the CD replaced.

A summary (also from http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/honours_awards/engraph/long_service_e.asp?cat=3 (http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/honours_awards/engraph/long_service_e.asp?cat=3), and http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/cmdp/mainmenu/group11):

   - Regular Navy Officers: No Awards.
   - Reserve Navy Officers: At 20 years.

   - Regular Navy Other Ranks: At 15 years, and then every 15 years (no postnominals).
   - Reserve Navy Other Ranks: At 12 years, and then every 12 years (no postnominals).


   - Regular Army Officers: No Awards.
   - Reserve Army Officers: At 20 year, and then every 20 years.

   - Regular Army Other Ranks: At 18 years, and then every 18 years (no postnominals).
   - Reserve Army Other Ranks: At 12 years, and then every 6 years (no postnominals).


   - Regular Air Force Officers: No Awards.
   - Reserve Air Force Officers and Other Ranks: At 10 years, and then every 10 years (no postnominals).

   - Regular Air Force Other Ranks: At 18 years, and then every 18 years (no postnominals).

Notes:
   - At first the Air Force appears to have used the Army awards
   - IIRC Navy Good Conduct chevrons were for 3, 8, and 13 years.

Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: geo on March 12, 2006, 21:42:53
BF...
I asked first..... and I'm up to two clasps ???
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Michael Dorosh on March 13, 2006, 02:33:30
Having said that I think the rest of our Honours and Awards system really sucks. The Canada Silver Jubilee, Golden Jubilee and 125 were just bloody jokes. I would be really embarrassed to wear a 125 medal personally after seeing the way they were handed out. I thought we all should have got the Golden Jubilee medal similar to the way it was done in Britain....if you had served 1 year to the crown on the date of the anniversary of the ascension you got one....I was in London in 2002 and saw guardsman at the Palace wearing them.
I would hate to see us go to the American systemof ribbons for doing very little  and unit citations but there are certain things that could be recognized better.

Umm...you don't see the contradiction here?  Giving a medal for one year of service? How is that different from the "American" way of giving ribbons for completing basic training?  It's still a gimme.

As for commemoratives - I was quite happy to get the Alberta Centennial Medal, not so much that I felt I deserved but but to see the excellent company I was keeping; my oldest friend who started in Cadets with me 20 years ago got one (he had completed all 6 trade qualification levels in just two years, and I believe the first one in our Regiment in his trade to ever do that), as well as some "heart and soul" types in our Regiment.  The Queen's Jubilee also went to long serving members who did more than just show up and sign the paysheet for 15 or 20 years.  I understand it is different in some units; too bad for them, but don't paint us all with the same brush. 
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Iterator on March 13, 2006, 06:26:20
...
I asked first.....
...

If you mean regarding:

then again - after 12 yrs - why did they decide to move forward in 10 yr increments thereafter?

Then yes, you did ask first. :)

I can't seem to find out anything about this though:

The brits have brought in a medal for shorter service - something along the 8 yr range.
will look it up and post reference

T'was felt that 12 yrs is a wee bit too long...

I haven't found an official site, everything I find refers to it as 18 years




The ADF realising there was no medal for those under 15 yrs (less medals for deploymenet and other reasons) came up with the ADM (Australian Defence Medal).
...but it is given out to those with a mininum of 6 yrs service
...

Extracted from (http://www.defence.gov.au/minister/Broughtpl.cfm?CurrentId=3952 (http://www.defence.gov.au/minister/Broughtpl.cfm?CurrentId=3952))
Quote
...
The Australian Defence Medal also reflects the fact that when serving in a modern Defence Force, it becomes difficult to discriminate between those who serve directly on operations and those who support those operations."

"The Australian Defence Medal reflects the fact that by serving in the Australian Defence Force individuals make a contribution to the national interest, whether they served the country on operations, or whether they remained in Australia in a support role."
...
"Six years reflects a length of time that we could be reasonably certain that most people would have completed the requisite training and experience in the Regular or Reserve forces, to be considered fully deployable should they have been called upon," Mr Brough said
...



Many of us who have gone full civie will have no use for medals. They will remain in a box in the basement.

But when you see medal wearing non-military people (police, fire department, and legion members) you can occasionally notice those with the CD.

And from that you can identify those that served 12 years in the CF, but not all those that served in the CF (keep in mind police and others will have overseas medals as well).


Though not entirely opposed to a separate medal such as:
...a generic "CF Service" medal....issued once you take your release...
I would have preferred a way of recognizing CF service by piggy-backing it onto an existing award.

And using the CD, but with the now common maple leaf clasps to keep it visibly distinct from CDs issued for 12 years, I thought would have been ideal.

However, the opposition to anything that would associate the CD with less than 12 years, or to not using a medal/decoration for recognizing 12 years, has been more than I had expected.

Is there another medal that is already issued in large numbers that could be used?

The SSM comes to mind. Would there be the same opposition? Non-biased note: I already have an SSM.



Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: George Wallace on March 13, 2006, 08:53:40
Many of us who have gone full civie will have no use for medals. They will remain in a box in the basement. 
If that is the case you are creating a big fuss for nothing.

But when you see medal wearing non-military people (police, fire department, and legion members) you can occasionally notice those with the CD.

And from that you can identify those that served 12 years in the CF, but not all those that served in the CF (keep in mind police and others will have overseas medals as well).
So?  What is your point?  Those with some TI have a CD, those without don't.  Those with Tours have medals for Tours.  Those who didn't make any commitment don't have anything.

Though not entirely opposed to a separate medal such as:I would have preferred a way of recognizing CF service by piggy-backing it onto an existing award.
Isn't this just being redundant?  You want to recognize CF Service. Any CF medal would do that anyway.  If I wore the SWASM, then I must have obviously been in the CF for some period of time.


And using the CD, but with the now common maple leaf clasps to keep it visibly distinct from CDs issued for 12 years, I thought would have been ideal.

However, the opposition to anything that would associate the CD with less than 12 years, or to not using a medal/decoration for recognizing 12 years, has been more than I had expected.

Is there another medal that is already issued in large numbers that could be used?

The SSM comes to mind. Would there be the same opposition? Non-biased note: I already have an SSM.
So obviously you were in the CF.  Would another medal, more emphasis that fact.  Your suggestion would only devalue the purpose of the SSM.

Let's just admit it........you would like to have another gong for your collection.
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Trinity on March 13, 2006, 09:16:44
So its all about the Look Cool Factor

What do people get who haven't served enough time in, tours, etc..

Dogs tags (Id discs)

Thats it.. enjoy them.   

I think the topic has been beaten to death!
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Iterator on March 13, 2006, 15:01:07

Quote from: Iterator on Today at 05:26:20
But when you see medal wearing non-military people (police, fire department, and legion members) you can occasionally notice those with the CD.

And from that you can identify those that served 12 years in the CF, but not all those that served in the CF (keep in mind police and others will have overseas medals as well).


So?  What is your point?  Those with some TI have a CD, those without don't.  Those with Tours have medals for Tours.  Those who didn't make any commitment don't have anything.

The point:

If service in the CF is worthy of recognition then lets not be timid about it. Service doesn't automatically become meaningful at 12 years, and that is the problem with the current CD - What does it mark? - It marks when you get your CD (pointing that out doesn't diminish your 12 years of service).

I find service in the CF to be worthy of recognition, but to make a new medal that would be eventually awarded to almost all members would be seen as cheapening all medals.

By using the CD in a way that would still leave the current holders of the CD distinct seems like a great idea. It is one of the lowest medals in order of precedence; it is eventually awarded to almost all members who are in for 12 years anyways; and it can be made even more useful by better marking Time In. I'm sure with some more thought on the topic you will find your opinion on the idea changing.


However, there appear to be 2 problems:

1)
"Those with Tours have medals for Tours.  Those who didn't make any commitment don't have anything.".

There were a few people, including yourself, who feel that non-operational medals would be unworthy.

To follow that line of thinking would mean that a medal for 12 years of Service cheapens operational medals.
 
There are alternate ways of marking Time In (pins, badges), but then some people posted about how they wouldn't want to reach 12 years of service in the CF and not get the medal that they had been eagerly anticipating. I had not previously heard of that concern - live and learn I guess.


2)
The greatest concern comes from those who currently hold a CD. Even though the clasp system proposed would leave the current CD holders visibly distinct, there is a lot of apprehension about their CDs being cheapened. Again, it appears attitudes towards CDs have changed since I was in.



Still, not wanting to create a new medal, I'm left with what I would consider the obvious alternate idea. The SSM.

After all, it is already awarded for service in Canada (Ranger, Alert).

Awarding it would require no modifications. Just a bar would be required (perhaps CANADA). And for those who already have the SSM (mostly NATO) it can easily be distinguished because once you have 2 bars - the ribbon is then worn with a maple leaf.

As for when it would be awarded - either only at the door on your way out, or, at the door on your way out but earlier if you participate in an Aid to Civil Power operation (ice storms and such).


Your suggestion would only devalue the purpose of the SSM.

Well... You don't seem concerned about the CD or the SSM cheapening other medals, so how about a little leeway on at least the SSM.

And look on the bright side, since I already have an SSM you would be denying me this:
Let's just admit it........you would like to have another gong for your collection.
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Kasanika on March 13, 2006, 15:13:53
Quote
I find service in the CF to be worthy of recognition, but to make a new medal that would be eventually awarded to almost all members would be seen as cheapening all medals.
I don't see how. Is the VC somehow cheapend because other medals exist? The Medal of Honor awarded by Congress?
The first "S" in SSM stand for "Special". Hence the need for a separate "SM" that's not as special.
All the best,
Bart
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: George Wallace on March 13, 2006, 15:31:01
I find service in the CF to be worthy of recognition, but to make a new medal that would be eventually awarded to almost all members would be seen as cheapening all medals.

I hope that that is your final word in this discussion.  If it isn't, both sides of your brain are not communicating with each other, and neither is communicating a clearly defined, concise message to your fingers.  A nice Certificate of Service to hang on your "I Love Me Wall" for any Service short of the prerequisite time for a Medal should suffice.
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Iterator on March 13, 2006, 15:48:51
I don't see how. Is the VC somehow cheapend because other medals exist? The Medal of Honor awarded by Congress?
The first "S" in SSM stand for "Special". Hence the need for a separate "SM" that's not as special.
All the best,
Bart

You have a point about "Special". And using "Special" as the criteria for that medal would make it a slight stretch to include any and all military service. But if the CD is off limits, then I thin it would be worth it.

In our system I would say that excess service medals do cheapen other service medals. And, in my opinion, I think that the combination of SSM, CPSM and a new Canadian SM would be too much, in fact I would have preferred it if everyone were issued the PEACE bar to the SSM rather than the CPSM.
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Iterator on March 13, 2006, 15:49:37
...A nice Certificate of Service to hang on your "I Love Me Wall" for any Service short of the prerequisite time for a Medal should suffice.

I could agree with you, if you could communicate a clearly defined, concise message on what a "prerequisite time for a Medal" aside from what the medal itself states. And, if not, then why would you be opposed to "A nice Certificate of Service" with "12 years" written on it.
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: George Wallace on March 13, 2006, 15:52:36
Now you are Trolling.
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: Trinity on March 13, 2006, 15:57:14
I could agree with you, if you could communicate a clearly defined, concise message on what a "prerequisite time for a Medal" aside from what the medal itself states. And, if not, then why would you be opposed to "A nice Certificate of Service" with "12 years" written on it.


Now you are Trolling.

Lol..  George.. instead of calling him Iterator..

maybe we should change his name to Re-iterator.  ;)
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=reiterator
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: George Wallace on March 13, 2006, 16:04:18
Actually, in my books he has risen on the scale to the level of:  One "D" Ten "T"  ::)
Title: Re: Should everyone get a CD?
Post by: George Wallace on March 13, 2006, 21:02:25
Submission from Iterator:

Quote
From Iterator:
Quote
I could agree with you, if you could communicate a clearly defined, concise message on what a

"prerequisite time for a Medal" aside from what the medal itself states.



Agreed, that is unclear.


Let me use the ASM as an example.
Quote

...
Extracted from (http://www.defence.gov.au/minister/Broughtpl.cfm?CurrentId=3952)
"Six years reflects a length of time that we could be reasonably certain that most people would have

completed the requisite training and experience in the Regular or Reserve forces, to be considered fully

deployable should they have been called upon,"...



So, if someone were to ask - "Why is the ASM awarded at 6 years instead of at 5 or at 7?", a constructive

answer can be formed. There is a rationale.

If someone were to ask - "Why is the CD awarded at 12 years instead of at 11 or at 13?", there is no

constructive answer. You could try "11 years isn't long enough to receive a medal for being in the CF",

but that would be empty and somewhat circular.

Modifying the terms for a CD would both improve it and provide a rationale for it. It will detract little from those who already have them.