Author Topic: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)  (Read 232541 times)

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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #550 on: September 12, 2018, 23:36:06 »
Not yet, but I certainly hope in the next two days the beardforgen drops....

Is there any subliminal messaging in the fact that DOPEGEN came out before FUZZFACEGEN?
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Ostrozac

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #551 on: September 13, 2018, 04:47:10 »
Is there any subliminal messaging in the fact that DOPEGEN came out before FUZZFACEGEN?

The Weed Standing Orders were driven by an external timeline imposed by Parliament. Lacking that imposed timeline, the CF would probably still be continuing its lengthy internal debate on the matter of military marijuana, as we now appear to be doing on military facial hair, continuing a debate that has roots back to before the Amish shaved their moustaches.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #552 on: September 13, 2018, 05:31:30 »
Sleeveforgen: rolling your sleeves inwards is retarded.
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Offline sidemount

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #553 on: September 13, 2018, 13:22:18 »
I’m having a chuckle - beards and bongs all in the same week.
Don't forget boots(although not in the same week).
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Sent from my S8, excuse the typos

Leadership is solving problems. The day soldiers stop bringing you their problems is the day you have stopped leading them. They have either lost confidence that you can help or concluded you do not care. Either case is a failure of leadership. - Colin Powell

Offline Pusser

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #554 on: September 13, 2018, 13:48:29 »

You just killed what moral I had left lol.
 
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I'm assuming that it was your smart phone that took away your morals?
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #555 on: September 13, 2018, 14:01:07 »
Don't forget boots(although not in the same week).
All things I have not expected to see prior to retirement

Sent from my S8, excuse the typos

You guys have had a rough time. I know the feeling.
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Offline sidemount

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #556 on: September 13, 2018, 14:35:28 »
I'm assuming that it was your smart phone that took away your morals?
It is quite possible.

However, I can't blame the smart phone for grammar mistakes. That one is on me.


« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 14:39:00 by sidemount »
Leadership is solving problems. The day soldiers stop bringing you their problems is the day you have stopped leading them. They have either lost confidence that you can help or concluded you do not care. Either case is a failure of leadership. - Colin Powell

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #557 on: September 14, 2018, 22:02:21 »
Interesting story WRT to the "aircrew can't wear beards" and whether the RCAF is for/against beards for all mbr's posted to RCAF units...

https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,128951.msg1548283.html#msg1548283
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Offline mariomike

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #558 on: September 14, 2018, 22:57:58 »
Regarding the topic of this discussion, "Air Canada pilots get permission to wear beards".

Air Canada pilots are members of a union/association.
https://www.acpa.ca/

Grooming decisions ( hair, beards, tattoos etc. ) , can be traced back to the 1972 arbitration regarding the Toronto firefighter with ( very short ) sideburns.

Wearing a respirator was part of his job.

The Ontario Labour Relations Board ( OLRB ) arbitrator ruled, "as long as the employee performs the job or work for which he has been hired, the employer has no authority to impose his personal views of appearance or dress upon the employee."
http://www.scarboroughfirefighters.org/notice_files/Side%20Burns_up-Scarborough__Borough__and_I.A.F.F.__Local_626.pdf

More liberal grooming standards may seem a positive step forward by some.

But, may not be seen the same way by some taxpayers ( and possibly some airline passengers / customers. )

Reference,

QUOTE

1) Studying public perceptions of police grooming standards
https://myessays100.wordpress.com/2016/04/16/us-police-grooming-standards/
Summary: The response of the police administrators to the challenges of the grooming standards by arguing that more liberal standards would erode public respect for the police is given. The results of the study show the public's opposition on the grooming standards and the reasons for that opposition.

2) "Research suggests that grooming and appearance features (e.g., facial hair, visible tattoos, dishevelled clothing) can negatively impact opinions of professionalism and trustworthiness," says an internal document.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-man-bun-tattoo-survey-1.4612725
Goatees say "untrustworthy." So do soul patches.
Appearance can affect how a jury assesses an officer's testimony in court, for instance.

END QUOTE




« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 08:13:34 by mariomike »

Offline Ostrozac

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #559 on: September 15, 2018, 09:29:57 »
Considering that the Indian Air Force have allowed beards for years, including for pilots of supersonic fighters, and their pilots are still breathing, I thought it was pretty clear that Air Canada's beard restriction was always more of a fashion/tradition thing than an actual flight safety issue. But now there is actual SFU research that backs up the experience of India.

Hey, I'm all for uniforms and clothing restrictions in the workplace, but there's a difference between professional appearance requirements, which is a fashion issue, and operational requirements, which is a safety issue. Air Canada has for years been calling something a safety requirement, when it was really a fashion requirement, and that simply wasn't right.

The NHL probably has it right. Helmets on the ice are a workplace safety requirement that is imposed by the league. Wearing jacket and tie to the game is a fashion requirement which is explicitly written into the collective bargaining agreement.

Offline mariomike

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #560 on: September 15, 2018, 11:21:19 »
OP: "Air Canada pilots get permission to wear beards"

I'm not a lawyer, but as I understand it, an employer can legally choose not to hire based on her/his personal views of appearance. That is not a violation of the Human Rights Act or Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

This applies whether it is a union or non-union workplace.

The only exceptions would be ethnic, tribal custom or religion.

Where the prospective employment is not to be in a public place this may be less important.

The situation becomes more complicated after an employee has been hired.

Here the employers rights differ greatly depending on whether it is a union or non-union workplace.

Air Canada is a union workplace.


« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 11:38:39 by mariomike »

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #561 on: September 15, 2018, 12:23:11 »
Considering that the Indian Air Force have allowed beards for years, including for pilots of supersonic fighters, and their pilots are still breathing, I thought it was pretty clear that Air Canada's beard restriction was always more of a fashion/tradition thing than an actual flight safety issue. But now there is actual SFU research that backs up the experience of India.

I don't know for any certainty if the RCAF requirement is derived from research or lack of research.  But it is encouraging that the CAF has asked for their data.

With the variety of emerg breathing equipment that our fleets have (example, there are 4 different ones / mask types on the Aurora alone between the flight deck and Tactical tube systems including our fire fighting kits), I doubt they would be able to say "beards are okay" for aircrew/flight crew as the study above was limited to 2 systems used by Air Canada.  It might be the start of a process and policy review/change.

It's not just about fashion either, from my perspective.  We had a guy on crew during an IMPACT roto who developed a skin reaction to 'something' and he wasn't able to shave for the roto.  The kit has to work properly and immediately, so knowing you're good if you are in the situation this guy was in (no choice) would be peace of mind as well. 
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 21:48:53 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Dimsum

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #562 on: September 15, 2018, 19:36:57 »
In a roundabout way, this would affect the RCN's beard policy as well.  If RCAF folks who use positive pressure breathing apparatus can wear beards, *and* RCN folks on shore postings can wear beards already, why not RCN folks at sea wearing positive pressure (Drager) systems?
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline boot12

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #563 on: September 15, 2018, 21:07:22 »
Anecdotally, the desire for beards in seagoing units in the RCN is strong, especially when you come alongside as part of a 5-6 ship NATO Task Group and realize that you're the only participating navy which bans them. Many members lament that the Fleet Diving Units allows beards, which is an organization built around full face masks; I can't speak to the physiological difference between smoke and water.

Having spoke to the odd person who remembers the initial beard ban, the original decision seems to have been rooted in a cultural desire to remove beards, justified by "safety" concerns.  Having not done the research I cannot say how much merit this argument holds.

Interestingly, in a recent Hands Fall In, a local Fleet Commander indicated that the ban on beards seems to be finally under review for its scientific merits (or lack thereof), likely as part of the greater "BEARDFORGEN" rumour that has been circulating.

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #564 on: September 16, 2018, 12:02:07 »
They did some testing with the drager masks and beards when we first got them (before they rolled out to the ships).  Some people were okay, others couldn't hold a seal and had their bottle run out in 10 minutes. I guess once they got moving around and started sweating a lot they where problematic.

They couldn't really come up with a decent standard that would have let people have beards but be confident people would be able to maintain a seal.  Not sure what other Navies do but there is a better reason than the dress committee gods didn't like it.

I've had that happen to me a few times clean shaven, so might be more of a general issue with mask fit.  The medium fits my face, but is a bit loose around the chin, so even tightened down it can slide around a bit.

Offline mariomike

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #565 on: September 16, 2018, 13:39:14 »
"Lengthy posts and fully quoted articles are posted here. Link to these large posts in the regular boards."

Air Canada pilots get permission to wear beards
https://milnet.ca/forums/index.php/topic,128951.0.html


Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #566 on: September 16, 2018, 14:53:57 »
The beard issue for the RCN is being reevaluated.  We expect some changes in the not so distant future.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #567 on: September 16, 2018, 14:57:21 »
New rules. To grow a beard members must donate to the ever-devouring United way.
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