Author Topic: Retro Pay & Allow 1Apr 2014 - 1Apr 2017  (Read 209484 times)

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Offline MCG

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Re: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay
« Reply #250 on: November 07, 2016, 09:51:11 »
Sadly your reasoning is not supported by any directive or policy. 
The pay rates come blessed out of TB.  That make them policy.
What is absent to your satisfaction is the academic argument that led to the current policy.
Others have filled in bits of this with reference to different levels of training, different QoL featurs, and different career progression thresholds.
Market factors also validate this level of pay.  Despite Reg F vacancies, people are continuing to choose work as career Class B at 85%.  Clearly, there is something that they do not feel the extra 15% is worth.

Offline CountDC

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Re: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay
« Reply #251 on: November 07, 2016, 11:44:49 »
CountDC, in general agreement, although I would caveat that with my thoughts that there is a place for Class C in today's construct, and I'm specifically thinking deployment of PRes pers on operations, to ensure compensation and coverage for what then would be equivalent duty to peer RegF pers.  On this specific issue, the reversion of a PRes member from Class C back to A (or short-term B, as you note) is an issue that I don't think is done as well (read: responsibly on the part of DND/CAF towards the PRes member) as it should be.  It seems that there are numerous cases where transfer of post-deployed PRes members from C back to A or B was needlessly (other than to save a proportionately minor amount of money) rushed, which is not the right way of doing things, particularly when there is uncertainty surrounding the post-depl effects on the PRes member.

Regards
G2G

The Class C would actually be covered by a FPS (Fixed Period of Service) with the Reg F and ensure the mbr gets all the pay and benefits of the career Reg F counterpart including a more proper return after deployment such as a month or two of Cl C to keep them in the system and observed.  Hopefully this would enable picking up more of the post-depl effects as they would be observed a lot more than if returned to Class A service where they can avoid work if they want.
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay
« Reply #252 on: November 07, 2016, 14:12:14 »
The Class C would actually be covered by a FPS (Fixed Period of Service) with the Reg F and ensure the mbr gets all the pay and benefits of the career Reg F counterpart including a more proper return after deployment such as a month or two of Cl C to keep them in the system and observed.  Hopefully this would enable picking up more of the post-depl effects as they would be observed a lot more than if returned to Class A service where they can avoid work if they want.

Agree DC.  I think that's what dapaterson was referring to, and I fully support such an approach because it has a better chance of being misused by the system to 'unsupport' a post-deployed member.

Regards
G2G

Offline FyroniK

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Re: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay
« Reply #253 on: December 05, 2016, 21:47:16 »
Theres alot of BLAH, BLAH, and BLAH over the last few pages of this thread that have nothing to do with the thread topic. Back to it please. Less BLAH.

It's been so long since a pay raise most of us have forgotten they even exists just like the thread topic I guess.

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Re: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay
« Reply #254 on: December 06, 2016, 06:44:04 »
There are a lot of factors that tie into pay raises, and the difference between RegF and Res Pay is something that I've not been deeply aware of, as a 24+ year member of the RegF. 

To clarify, I know there is a difference, and having deployed to the UK with a mixed team of Reg and Res personnel this summer for 3+ weeks, I got to see the special challenges that impact the Reserve world when it comes to pay being messed up and not having a full-time person they can go to in order to rectify issues. 

Would it be nice to see a pay raise?  Sure would. 

Would it be nice to see a retro-active pay-raise with back pay?  Sure would.

Would it be nice to see the 10+ months of Sea Duty Allowance that I'm missing?  Sure would.

I just got my mid-month pay statement, and none of that is listed, so I'm waiting at least until January before I see anything.

If nothing else, the military has taught me one special skill...that's how to be patient and wait in lines.  :-)

NS
Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer:

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay
« Reply #255 on: December 06, 2016, 07:34:29 »
That's two skills...
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay
« Reply #256 on: December 06, 2016, 07:51:05 »
There are a lot of factors that tie into pay raises, and the difference between RegF and Res Pay is something that I've not been deeply aware of, as a 24+ year member of the RegF. 


 :warstory:

Looking through old papers and I found this pay statement; my pay statement for one training night in 1979 as a Reserve LT (Let the complaints begin.):

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Offline Loachman

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Re: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay
« Reply #257 on: December 06, 2016, 17:11:21 »
Theres alot of BLAH, BLAH, and BLAH over the last few pages of this thread that have nothing to do with the thread topic. Back to it please. Less BLAH.

When there is something factual to add, somebody will add it. In the meantime, what do you want people say? You've not added anything of greater value than those about whom you are complaining.

Offline FyroniK

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Re: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay
« Reply #258 on: December 07, 2016, 18:20:44 »
When there is something factual to add, somebody will add it. In the meantime, what do you want people say? You've not added anything of greater value than those about whom you are complaining.

Neither have they by taking the topic OFF-Topic. Make a new topic for reserve pay issues and complaints, What does that have to do with "2014 - 2016 Raise and Back pay". Nothing. People are subscribed to this thread they don't want to see spam from off topic issues in their emails.

Latest Update on the ACTUAL topic as opposed to the BLAH, BLAH and BLAH is here as of December 5th, 2016.

http://psacunion.ca/update-treasury-board-bargaining-dates-mediator

"Update on Treasury Board bargaining: Dates with mediator

The Common Issues committee and PA bargaining team will resume negotiations with Treasury Board, with the assistance of a mediator, the week of December 12.

PSAC and the Employer returned to extended negotiations from November 1-9, after the Liberal government promised to bring a new mandate to the table.

At the end of that bargaining session, PSAC proposed continuing discussions with the assistance of a mediator. The government has since agreed to this.

More information will be provided once it becomes available.

Topics: Bargaining
Employers: Treasury Board
December 5, 2016"

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Re: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay
« Reply #259 on: December 07, 2016, 18:43:08 »
Maybe you should have led with that info, instead of coming off as a two year old demanding a treat.

Offline Loachman

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Re: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay
« Reply #260 on: December 07, 2016, 20:18:56 »
Make a new topic for reserve pay issues and complaints,

Is that an order, Herr Kommandant?

What does that have to do with "2014 - 2016 Raise and Back pay". Nothing. People are subscribed to this thread they don't want to see spam from off topic issues in their emails.

Feel free to apply to become DS here, so that you can cull out all of the posts that you do not like. Those of us that are DS do not have the time - we have lives outside of this Site, too.

Every thread on this Site wanders off topic from time to time. Few whine about it, even on their favourite threads.

You're getting pretty good service here for the cost. Think about that for a bit.

But thanks for the info.

Offline slayer/raptor

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Re: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay
« Reply #261 on: December 11, 2016, 09:08:45 »
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/pipsc-union-and-federal-government-close-in-on-deal

If this goes through for us as well, 1.25% seems rather low compared to the increases we had last time: 1.75% for 2011-2012, 1.50% for 2012-2013, and 2.00% for 2013-2014.

Better than nothing I suppose. I wonder if the allowances (LDA, Sea etc) will go up as well.

Offline Occam

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Re: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay
« Reply #262 on: December 11, 2016, 10:45:18 »
Speaking as a public servant, I can live with 1.25% per year, so long as they take the sick leave changes off the table.  Hollow victory for the CF, I know - sick leave aspects of the collective agreements have no impact on CF pay and benefits.  I think getting any more than 1.25% was near impossible in this fiscal climate.  Too bad it couldn't have been closer to the figure that Members of Parliament get as raises.

Offline jollyjacktar

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Re: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay
« Reply #263 on: December 11, 2016, 11:30:53 »
Too bad it couldn't have been closer to the figure that Members of Parliament get as raises.

Do as I say, not, as I do...
I'm just like the CAF, I seem to have retention issues.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay
« Reply #264 on: December 11, 2016, 13:52:32 »
.......  Too bad it couldn't have been closer to the figure that Members of Parliament get as raises.

[Inside voice]
Too bad is right.  Too bad that ALL such raises were fixed to their raise in pay.  Perhaps that would cause our politicians to be more realistic and responsible in their spending.....
[/Inside voice]


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Offline Pusser

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Re: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay
« Reply #265 on: December 12, 2016, 11:13:05 »
Better than nothing I suppose. I wonder if the allowances (LDA, Sea etc) will go up as well.

Yes, they will.  It's also worth noting that if the PS is getting a 1.25%/yr increase, the increase to CAF pay will likely be slightly higher.
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay
« Reply #266 on: December 12, 2016, 11:24:15 »
Yes, they will.  It's also worth noting that if the PS is getting a 1.25%/yr increase, the increase to CAF pay will likely be slightly higher.

And you are basing that on?  There have been no material changes to working conditions that would warrant a higher rate of increase; those elements are already factored in to the military compensation model.

Besides, should there be any pay increase to the public service that includes amounts for changes to sick leave, for example, the military raise would be lower than the PS, as military sick leave would not be changed.
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Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay
« Reply #267 on: December 12, 2016, 11:28:07 »
It should be noted that this negotiation is not for a real salary increase, it's a cost of living adjustment.

A pay raise is supposed to be higher than annual inflation in order to get you ahead and be able to afford the current cost of living, with a little extra on the side.

This 1.25% per year over 4 years is less than the average annual inflation of 1.36% over the last 3 years.

Still, any increase is better than none, but cost of living adjustments don't cut it when we lose so much of our salaries to pay for R&Q, pensions etc., On top of high income tax rates.

(...and at times, exorbitant mandatory mess dues.)

As much as we're not completely hard done by, one of the biggest retention issues of the last decade is noncompetitive salaries and if we're all not given a proper salary boost soon, it's going to get worse.

Cost of living only goes up.

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Offline Pusser

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Re: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay
« Reply #268 on: December 12, 2016, 11:39:10 »
And you are basing that on?  There have been no material changes to working conditions that would warrant a higher rate of increase; those elements are already factored in to the military compensation model.

Besides, should there be any pay increase to the public service that includes amounts for changes to sick leave, for example, the military raise would be lower than the PS, as military sick leave would not be changed.

You're right, there have been no substantial changes to working conditions.  However, as a general rule, once the pay comparability formula is applied, CAF increases tend to be higher than PS increases.  Obviously, this is not an absolute, but it has historically been true, at least most of the time.  The Sick Leave issue may become a factor in the future, but I'm speculating that it won't this time around simply because it has apparently been taken off the table for the moment (it's to be dealt with separately at a future point in time).
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Pay Raise (2014
« Reply #269 on: December 12, 2016, 11:42:25 »
It should be noted that this negotiation is not for a real salary increase, it's a cost of living adjustment.

A pay raise is supposed to be higher than annual inflation in order to get you ahead and be able to afford the current cost of living, with a little extra on the side.

This 1.25% per year over 4 years is less than the average annual inflation of 1.36% over the last 3 years.

Still, any increase is better than none, but cost of living adjustments don't cut it when we lose so much of our salaries to pay for R&Q, pensions etc., On top of high income tax rates.

(...and at times, exorbitant mandatory mess dues.)

As much as we're not completely hard done by, one of the biggest retention issues of the last decade is noncompetitive salaries and if we're all not given a proper salary boost soon, it's going to get worse.

Cost of living only goes up.

My salary might not be as competitive, but compared to most private sector jobs that I know of, the difference in salary is more than made up for by:

1. Job Security;
2. 6 Weeks of vacation every year (and then some);
3. Full benefits;
4. Mostly full benefits for my family;
5. Variety of jobs, tasks and assignments;
6. PENSION;
7. LDA, SDA, HDA, OSP, AIRCRA, DIVGA....basically all of chapters 10 and 205 of the CBIs.

I'd say the military has done a pretty decent job competing to keep me in the Forces and away from the private sector.

I could literally stop caring, stop trying, let me level of effort drop to the bareminimum, and I'd still be getting $85,000 a year and all listed above bonuses. The military spoon feeds me everything I need to do and everything I need to know. There is no requirement to ensure profits or "a positive customer relations experience".

Now, I try really hard and I want to do well, but in what other private sector job could I slack off and still expect 10+ more years at close to 6 figure?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 13:23:38 by Lumber »
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Offline MJP

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Re: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay
« Reply #270 on: December 12, 2016, 11:48:38 »
My salary might not be as competitive, but compared to most private sector jobs that I know of, the difference in salary is more than made up for by:

1. Job Security;
2. 6 Weeks of vacation every year (and then some);
3. Full benefits;
4. Mostly full benefits for my family;
5. Variety of jobs, tasks and assignments;
6. PENSION;
7. LDA, SDA, HDA, OSP, AIRCRA, DIVGA....basically all of chapters 10 and 205 of the CBIs.

I'd say the military has done a pretty decent job competing to keep me in the Forces and away from the private sector.

I could literally stop carrying, let me level of effort drop to the bare, bare minimum, and I'd still be getting $85

Well said.  I keep saying we need to get over ourselves, we are not hard done by for the most part.
Hope is not a valid COA

Offline Pusser

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Re: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay
« Reply #271 on: December 12, 2016, 11:50:52 »
It should be noted that this negotiation is not for a real salary increase, it's a cost of living adjustment.

A pay raise is supposed to be higher than annual inflation in order to get you ahead and be able to afford the current cost of living, with a little extra on the side.

This 1.25% per year over 4 years is less than the average annual inflation of 1.36% over the last 3 years.

Still, any increase is better than none, but cost of living adjustments don't cut it when we lose so much of our salaries to pay for R&Q, pensions etc., On top of high income tax rates.

(...and at times, exorbitant mandatory mess dues.)

As much as we're not completely hard done by, one of the biggest retention issues of the last decade is noncompetitive salaries and if we're all not given a proper salary boost soon, it's going to get worse.

Cost of living only goes up.

By your definition, we never have and never will receive a real salary increase.  Although there is a market force element involved to some extent, our general pay increases are almost entirely about cost of living increases.  General pay increases have nothing to do with "getting ahead."  Why should the employer (the government) pay more for someone to do the same job tomorrow, that they're doing today?  "Getting ahead," comes through promotion (which includes incentive increases).
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Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay
« Reply #272 on: December 12, 2016, 11:54:26 »
By your definition, we never have and never will receive a real salary increase.  Although there is a market force element involved to some extent, our general pay increases are almost entirely about cost of living increases.  General pay increases have nothing to do with "getting ahead."  Why should the employer (the government) pay more for someone to do the same job tomorrow, that they're doing today?  "Getting ahead," comes through promotion (which includes incentive increases).

I guess it's trade dependent. I'm very good at my job but promotions are a struggle. This year they say they lost too many people and can't promote very many to the next rank... So if you're already topped out, no raise in 3 years, and can't get promoted through no fault of your own it really feels like you're falling behind.

I'm just trying to play the other side of the coin, personally I'm much of the same mindset as Lumber.

However, I've seen many good people leave because the private sector offered them better (maybe not so in terms of some benefits, but clearly enough to pull them away).

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Offline Pusser

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Re: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay
« Reply #273 on: December 12, 2016, 12:06:47 »
I guess it's trade dependent. I'm very good at my job but promotions are a struggle. This year they say they lost too many people and can't promote very many to the next rank... So if you're already topped out, no raise in 3 years, and can't get promoted through no fault of your own it really feels like you're falling behind.

I'm just trying to play the other side of the coin, personally I'm much of the same mindset as Lumber.

However, I've seen many good people leave because the private sector offered them better (maybe not so in terms of some benefits, but clearly enough to pull them away).

In the Public Service, pay rates are based on occupation, so if the demand for a particular occupation goes way up, this will often factor into PS increases for that occupation (happened a few years ago for computer people, who saw huge increases).  In short, PS pay increases can be driven by market forces.  This is factored into pay increases for the CAF as well, but since our pay comparability formula uses benchmarks from across the whole spectrum of the PS, a significant increase for a single PS occupation is watered down by all the other benchmarks in play, so we don't see it as much.  However, since our pay is based on rank and, for the most part, not by occupation (there being a few notable exceptions), we all see a little bit of a significant increase to a PS occupation, but no one sees all of it.
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Offline jollyjacktar

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Re: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay
« Reply #274 on: December 12, 2016, 17:05:34 »
I guess it's trade dependent. I'm very good at my job but promotions are a struggle. This year they say they lost too many people and can't promote very many to the next rank... So if you're already topped out, no raise in 3 years, and can't get promoted through no fault of your own it really feels like you're falling behind.

I'm just trying to play the other side of the coin, personally I'm much of the same mindset as Lumber.

However, I've seen many good people leave because the private sector offered them better (maybe not so in terms of some benefits, but clearly enough to pull them away).

Welcome to the Chretien years.  One guy with me in Halifax was # 1 in the trade three years running.  No promotion. 

We were told by the NPM in 96-97 that where we were in rank was where we were going to retire.  No promotions were forecasted and if we didn't like it we could hit the door.  I remustered in 99.  Things only really changed I am told after 9/11 when the trade expanded and Spec pay was brought in.
I'm just like the CAF, I seem to have retention issues.