Author Topic: Hypersonic Strike Vehicle  (Read 8054 times)

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Offline Underway

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Re: Hypersonic Strike Vehicle
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2019, 15:53:35 »
How does one aim one of these weapons at a moving target, like an aircraft carrier?

It's a tough problem.  The missile moves so fast how do you steer it with any accuracy into a target?  Heck how do you have sensors that can pull good information out of a radar return when your sensor is moving at that speed?

I suspect just use nukes and all you need to get is close.  Alternatively you can go the gets there fast, then slows down for terminal/targeting route, or gets there slow and uses hypersonic for the terminal phase to avoid defensive fire.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Hypersonic Strike Vehicle
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2019, 17:39:56 »
How does one aim one of these weapons at a moving target, like an aircraft carrier?

Offer poor pilots extra danger pay? :)
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Hypersonic Strike Vehicle
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2019, 20:50:24 »
Once a target has been localized, weapon moving at hypersonic velocity will cover 1600m per second or greater. The kill chain is to generalize the location of the target, launch the weapon, guide it into the target box and allow the weapon to make terminal adjustments. An aircraft carrier moving at 30 knots will be essentially stationary compared to the incoming hypersonic weapon.

A similar calculus can be made for virtually any sort of target. Indeed the only target which could evade a hypersonic missile would be another hypersonic vehicle or a satellite in Low Earth Orbit
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Hypersonic Strike Vehicle
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2019, 17:19:56 »
How does one aim one of these weapons at a moving target, like an aircraft carrier?

30-40 kts is pretty much standing still when your traveling 3,000-5,000 mph.  A CVN travelling at ‘advertised’ speeds travels it own length in the same time that a hypersonic weapon has covered 23nm, so ‘in the right area’ combined with a ‘ terminal tweak’ is Likely to be a pretty solid ouch...

Regards
G2G

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Hypersonic Strike Vehicle
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2019, 18:18:52 »
Certainly one would need gps to target a CVN ?

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Hypersonic Strike Vehicle
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2019, 18:59:54 »
Certainly one would need gps to target a CVN ?

Why?

Not trolling- I just want to see where you are going with this line of thinking before I respond again.

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Hypersonic Strike Vehicle
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2019, 20:49:14 »
We are close to OPSEC territory I suspect but the same ability for precision artillery fire I would guess applies to hitting a target at sea. Of course if your warhead is nuclear you dont have to be too accurate.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Hypersonic Strike Vehicle
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2019, 21:44:35 »
Ok, got ya.

There are methods of guidance that do not rely on GPS.  I can think of a half dozen ways of getting a hypersonic weapon to it's target that do not rely on a onboard, terminal sensor (which I cannot puzzle out how to make work, given the velocities involved.

You are correct- nuclear weapons mean you only have to be close. However, to use a nuclear weapon against a USN carrier risks escalation that could involve the entire retaliatory weight of the US nuclear arsenal. In other words, you are risking the extinction of the entire human race, if you go that way.

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Hypersonic Strike Vehicle
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2019, 22:55:30 »
Ok, got ya.

There are methods of guidance that do not rely on GPS.  I can think of a half dozen ways of getting a hypersonic weapon to it's target that do not rely on a onboard, terminal sensor (which I cannot puzzle out how to make work, given the velocities involved.

You are correct- nuclear weapons mean you only have to be close. However, to use a nuclear weapon against a USN carrier risks escalation that could involve the entire retaliatory weight of the US nuclear arsenal. In other words, you are risking the extinction of the entire human race, if you go that way.

Any attack by PRC on US warships will probably escalate based on the nature of the attack. Non nuclear may keep it in that realm. Several years ago the PRC took a USN spy plane claiming it entered Chinese air space, Eventually the incident was deescalated. No one wants a shooting war.

Offline Underway

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Re: Hypersonic Strike Vehicle
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2019, 15:53:17 »
Ok, got ya.

There are methods of guidance that do not rely on GPS.  I can think of a half dozen ways of getting a hypersonic weapon to it's target that do not rely on a onboard, terminal sensor (which I cannot puzzle out how to make work, given the velocities involved.


There are plenty of missiles out there that still use inertial guidance (open source) to get their way to a target.  If they know where they started from a GPS only adds accuracy in the flight path.  This is 70's technology.  However the sensors to calculate how fast you are going (as traditional wind speed measuring devices don't work that well), steering at that speed (vectored thrust?  Surely control surfaces won't work well) and any even minor error in targeting will result in massive accuracy errors.  For example a 1 degree difference at a nautical mile is 35 yards off the target.  This missile travels at multiple miles a second.  You have a targeting error of 1 degree you might be past the target well before you can correct the flight path!  Not saying it cant be done but unique problems to be sure.



Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Hypersonic Strike Vehicle
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2019, 17:59:32 »
We had the same principle with the Nike Herc Missile. It was designed to stop waves of Russian bombers with a nuke warhead.

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Hypersonic Strike Vehicle
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2019, 19:25:30 »
For some types of targets, the hypersonic vehicle might have a fragmenting warhead, releasing a cloud of flechettes. Since Kinetic energy is 1/2 MV^2, even small darts will have a great deal of striking power and energy. For an aircraft carrier, they would "scour" the flight deck, destroy any fittings they strike (like radar antenna) and penetrate into the ship's internal structures. It might actually be more difficult to do damage control with dozens of holes ripped through multiple compartments than a single strike, even if it is a massive one.

This sort of "scouring" attack would also be useful for distributed targets like airfields, industrial facilities, rail yards and so on. Even near misses by unitary warheads would be much like the "Grand Slam" earthquake bombs of WWII, causing immense damage through heaving the ground and undermining structures. How this would work on a ship at sea is problematic, but it certainly worked against the Tirpitz moored in Norway in 1944. Certainly any ships in harbour would be at risk, and sinking supply ships would be almost as useful as sinking the capital ships, especially in the longer term.

But there are indeed many ways to guide a hypersonic missile in the terminal phase of the attack, and it is likely there will be several different methods on board a missile to help penetrate jamming and other defenses. A latticework vane or fin on the missile is the most likely form of guidance, used extensively on Russian missiles and on the SpaceX Falcon boosters as they return from suborbital flight (at close to the sorts of speeds expected of hypersonic weapons).

Click on this image: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Vympel-R-77-maks2009.jpg for an idea of what it might look like

Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Hypersonic Strike Vehicle
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2019, 21:59:50 »
But there are indeed many ways to guide a hypersonic missile in the terminal phase of the attack, and it is likely there will be several different methods on board a missile to help penetrate jamming and other defenses.

And I'm sure that Huawei will have the contract for that :)
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Hypersonic Strike Vehicle
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2019, 12:12:57 »
What might Russian, Chinese and US hypersonics be good for, as seen by each country? Excerpts from lengthy piece and conclusion:

Quote
...
Are these weapons and their employment simply an evolution of existing missiles? Or a revolution that threatens to upset the balance of power? The answer still depends on decisions yet to be made. Russia appears closest to fielding hypersonic missiles, as it aspires to deploy the Avangard glide vehicle before the year is out. The United States has ambitious goals for accuracy and precision, but its most viable programs are not expected to reach operational capability until 2022. Meanwhile, China has been characteristically vague on their hypersonic weapons while still letting it be known that they are firmly committed to their development...

A trio of questions needs to be considered: What audience can hypersonic weapons be leveraged against, what tactical utility do they provide, and what strategic objectives can be advanced by using them or threatening to use them? Framing the discussion in this way is useful for delving deeper into why nations are pursuing hypersonic weapons as well as making initial assessments on how they may be operationalized. The propositions below are not exhaustive; they are meant to provoke discussion. They pair a particular application with a particular country, but there is nothing stopping Russia, China, or the United States from taking advantage of any application discussed below...

Hypersonic weapons may lead to a revolution in warfighting if countries produce them at scale. Mass production and deployment of reliable designs would mean that these weapons are no longer a niche capability targeted against a limited number of valuable targets. Rather, inflicting near-instantaneous effects over a multitude of primary and secondary targets could help realize current fears of increased crisis pressures and faster escalation dynamics. In fewer numbers, there may be evolutionary changes at the tactical and operational levels of war without drastically threatening the strategic balance of peer adversaries. In this case, they may herald another iteration of stability-instability dynamics, where states take advantage of high-end warfighting capabilities to enable grey zone aggression. Whether revolution or evolution, hypersonic weapons alone are not the challenge. They will contribute to a 21st-century combined arms dilemma that includes other new technology like cyber activities, advanced anti-submarine warfare, and space operations as well as traditional, but indispensable, maneuver forces like infantry battalions, warships, and air superiority fighters.

Alan Cummings is a Master’s candidate at Tufts’ Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy focusing on nuclear strategy and emerging technology. He served over 10 years on active duty with the U.S. Navy before transitioning to the Navy Reserve, and was recently a research assistant with the Center for Global Security Research at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. The views expressed here are his own and in no way represent any institution with which he is affiliated.

(This work was performed under the auspices of the U.S. Department of Energy by Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory under Contract DE-AC52-07NA27344. The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of the United States government or Lawrence Livermore National Security, LLC. LLNL-JRNL-786217.)

https://warontherocks.com/2019/11/hypersonic-weapons-tactical-uses-and-strategic-goals/

Mark
Ottawa


Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.