Author Topic: Domestic Terrorism-Public Attacks on CAF Personnel  (Read 258530 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ping Monkey

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 5,430
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 73
Re: Domestic Terrorism-Public Attacks on CAF Personnel
« Reply #600 on: May 14, 2018, 12:07:30 »

Man accused in military centre stabbing acquitted of terror charges

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/man-accused-in-military-centre-stabbing-acquitted-of-terror-charges-1.3928605


Quote
The Canadian Press
 Published Monday, May 14, 2018 11:30AM EDT
TORONTO -- A man with schizophrenia who attacked soldiers at a military recruitment centre in Toronto has been acquitted of terror-related charges and found not criminally responsible for lesser offences due to mental illness.


Judge Ian MacDonnell says Ayanle Hassan Ali's actions in May 2016 do not fit the intended scope of Canadian terrorism laws.


Ali had pleaded not guilty to three counts of attempted murder, three counts of assault with a weapon, two counts of assault causing bodily harm and one count of carrying a weapon for the purpose of committing an offence, all for the benefit or at the direction of a terror organization.


His lawyers had argued that because he committed his actions alone and had never been in contact with any terror groups, he should be found not guilty on the terror charges. They also argued he should be found not criminally responsible for the lesser included offences of attempted murder, assault and weapons offences.


The prosecution argued that Canadian terror laws could apply to Ali because he acted as a "terrorist group of one."


The judge ruled against the Crown's argument, saying the federal government's intention behind terrorism laws must be taken into account.

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 240,360
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,828
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
Re: Domestic Terrorism-Public Attacks on CAF Personnel
« Reply #601 on: May 14, 2018, 12:29:40 »
Not surprising in the least. And an NCR verdict isn’t a free pass, he’ll probably be in secure custody for a long time.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Jed

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 48,190
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,115
Re: Domestic Terrorism-Public Attacks on CAF Personnel
« Reply #602 on: May 14, 2018, 12:56:22 »
Not surprising in the least. And an NCR verdict isn’t a free pass, he’ll probably be in secure custody for a long time.
Probably about as long as the guy who beheaded a person on the bus in Manitoba.
As the old man used to say: " I used to be a coyote, but I'm alright nooooOOOOWWW!"

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 240,360
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,828
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
Re: Domestic Terrorism-Public Attacks on CAF Personnel
« Reply #603 on: May 14, 2018, 14:28:33 »
Probably about as long as the guy who beheaded a person on the bus in Manitoba.

Vince Li was held in secure psych custody for eight years- which coincidentally is three years longer than the minimum (and common) sentence for attempted murder. Though in any case the custodial time for an NCR verdict has nothing to do with the offense severity and everything with how long it takes to treat and stabilize someone.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

jollyjacktar

  • Guest
Re: Domestic Terrorism-Public Attacks on CAF Personnel
« Reply #604 on: May 14, 2018, 14:37:00 »
Vince Li was held in secure psych custody for eight years- which coincidentally is three years longer than the minimum (and common) sentence for attempted murder. Though in any case the custodial time for an NCR verdict has nothing to do with the offense severity and everything with how long it takes to treat and stabilize someone.

But seeing as he went all the way to cannibalism after decapitating his victim, what's the minimun sentence for that?  As a rule?

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 240,360
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,828
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
Re: Domestic Terrorism-Public Attacks on CAF Personnel
« Reply #605 on: May 14, 2018, 15:14:07 »
But seeing as he went all the way to cannibalism after decapitating his victim, what's the minimun sentence for that?  As a rule?

Irrelevant, as that’s not what we’re talking about. There is no ratio relating length of treatment to potential custodial sentences. I was merely noting that the length of time in secure treatment can be very considerable, and should in no way be viewed as an easy dodge. Severe mental health cases are one of the things our system handles pretty well. Someone whose psychosis presents a danger to the public may be held indefinitely if needed. Their disposition is evaluated periodically my the provincial mental health review board, and if they remain deemed dangerous to the public, they won’t be getting released. A person can enter the criminal mental health system for quite minor violent offenses that would net negligible time in custody, yet in the mental health system they stay in secure custody for many years. Compliance with conditions and medications is foremost in this.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Sheep Dog AT

  • The Fly in Someone's Ointment - Giggity
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 58,120
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,219
Re: Domestic Terrorism-Public Attacks on CAF Personnel
« Reply #606 on: May 14, 2018, 15:21:28 »
Li got off easy. Since he’s cured he should be in prison.
Apparently infamous for his one liners.
Oh Giggity Well...........Giggity

jollyjacktar

  • Guest
Re: Domestic Terrorism-Public Attacks on CAF Personnel
« Reply #607 on: May 14, 2018, 15:52:02 »
Fair enough and well explained.

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 240,360
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,828
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
Re: Domestic Terrorism-Public Attacks on CAF Personnel
« Reply #608 on: May 14, 2018, 16:34:29 »
Li got off easy. Since he’s cured he should be in prison.

How do you figure? If someone is so mentally disordered that they are psychotic and not capable of controlling their actions, how can they be held morally or legally blameworthy? The principle is no different from if someone had a brain tumor or some other physical disorder that affected their behaviour. Or for that matter someone who has a heart attack while driving and strikes and kills someone. If they could not choose or control their behaviour due to a medical issue, then the onus on the state is to address the public safetyconcern  and the medical issue- but not to punish something that was not a deliberate or considered act.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I don’t *like* what this can look like, but we have to contend with cold hard facts. Emotionality has no role in justice policy. What do the facts say, what makes sense, and what works?

Consider that any one of us could develop a degenerative medical condition that could render us temporarily or permanently unable to control our behaviour. In fact many of us eventually will in our old age. Some people simply suffer from such things when they are much younger and physically capable of dangerous actions.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Sheep Dog AT

  • The Fly in Someone's Ointment - Giggity
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 58,120
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,219
Re: Domestic Terrorism-Public Attacks on CAF Personnel
« Reply #609 on: May 14, 2018, 19:38:09 »
Drunk drivers are still held accountable. I’m not suggesting he spend the rest of his years in a prison camp but if he decides to go off his meds who’s gonna be accountable? 
Apparently infamous for his one liners.
Oh Giggity Well...........Giggity

Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 516,955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,670
    • The job.
Re: Domestic Terrorism-Public Attacks on CAF Personnel
« Reply #610 on: May 14, 2018, 19:56:04 »
Drunk drivers are still held accountable.

True. On the other hand,

If someone is so mentally disordered that they are psychotic and not capable of controlling their actions, how can they be held morally or legally blameworthy?

Offline Haggis

  • "There ain't no hat badge on a helmet!"
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 67,860
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,826
  • "Oh, what a glorious sight, Warm-reekin, rich!"
Re: Domestic Terrorism-Public Attacks on CAF Personnel
« Reply #611 on: May 14, 2018, 19:57:34 »
Drunk drivers are still held accountable. I’m not suggesting he spend the rest of his years in a prison camp but if he decides to go off his meds who’s gonna be accountable?

if you're comparing the consciously chosen actions of an impaired driver with the unconsciously caused actions of a driver who suffers a medical crisis while at the wheel, then you're comparing apples and bricks.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 20:28:57 by Haggis »
Train like your life depends on it.  Some day, it may.

Offline medicineman

  • Well stuck into my new job and thoroughly enjoying it.
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 148,895
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,355
  • In Arduis Fidelis
    • Fed By The Firehose
Re: Domestic Terrorism-Public Attacks on CAF Personnel
« Reply #612 on: May 14, 2018, 20:09:04 »
Li got off easy. Since he’s cured he should be in prison.

He has an incurable brain disease - it's been treated and is in remission...so long as he stays on his meds.

I do take issue with people knowingly stopping their meds and then something like this happens.  I've looked after my fair share of folks that have done some pretty wacked out stuff because they didn't like their medication side effects and decided to stop them...and then snap when the hallucinations return.  I don't think that the relatively few people this (horribly violent acts) happens to should be trusted on their own in the community - IMO, they should stay under supervision until their disease burns out (which it does in some cases after a certain age) or they pass away.  The person made a conscious decision that led to dire events - the consequence, while doesn't necessarily need to be a forensic lock down for life, should result in incarceration at a treatment facility, since they can't be trusted to look after themselves.  In Vince Li's case and others I've been privy to, it would also be for his protection - there is still a lot of bad blood flowing due to his actions and the ultimate result for him.

 :2c:

MM
MM

Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 240,360
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,828
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
Re: Domestic Terrorism-Public Attacks on CAF Personnel
« Reply #613 on: May 14, 2018, 20:38:49 »
Generally speaking, those who are found NCR have an extremely low rate of violent recidivism. The mental health system attached to our criminal justice system overall delivers excellent results in terms of recidivism rates.

There’s a huge difference between choosing to drink, getting sloshed and running someone else, and being afflicted with a mental health disorder that crippled your reasoning and ability to make choices.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

jollyjacktar

  • Guest
Re: Domestic Terrorism-Public Attacks on CAF Personnel
« Reply #614 on: May 14, 2018, 21:27:45 »
That being said, l would be somewhat uncomfortable with him as a neighbour if it is only his medication keeping him in check.  To me, that's only one safety on someone who lost the bubble like he did.  I would prefer a redundancy of some sort.

Not very snag of me, l know, but there it is.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 226,880
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,950
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Domestic Terrorism-Public Attacks on CAF Personnel
« Reply #615 on: July 23, 2018, 16:03:17 »
Man armed with knife arrested on Parliament Hill

A man armed with a knife was arrested on Parliament Hill on Monday morning, officials have confirmed.

Vice News first reported the story on Monday afternoon, several hours after the incident occurred during the ceremonial changing of the guard, around 10:15 a.m. ET. The outlet reported that the man had attempted to stab a soldier participating in the display.


Department of National Defence spokesperson Daniel Le Bouthillier confirmed that “due to the quick reaction of our soldiers, RCMP and Parliamentary Protective Services, the potential threat was identified and neutralised.”

He added that “as the matter is currently under investigation by the Ottawa Police Service, any other comments at this point would be inappropriate.”

It’s unclear if the attacker has been charged, and there has been no word on possible motivations. The RCMP have confirmed they are not involved in the investigation, and referred all questions to Ottawa Police.

The municipal police department confirmed to Global News that there was “an incident,” and that a male was arrested on the Hill and handed over to Ottawa police. He remains in custody.

They would not say if the actual incident occurred inside or outside the Parliamentary precinct, or confirm that it was an attempted stabbing.

The changing of the guard is a daily event in downtown Ottawa during the summer and involves dozens of soldiers. It begins at the same time every morning (10 a.m. ET).

Security on and around Parliament Hill has been increased significantly since a terror-linked shooting in October 2014 that resulted in the death of Cpl. Nathan Cirillo as he stood guard near the National War Memorial.

"What a f$$kin' week!" - me, every Monday at about 1130hrs.

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 240,360
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,828
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
Re: Domestic Terrorism-Public Attacks on CAF Personnel
« Reply #616 on: July 23, 2018, 16:16:02 »
From what I'm hearing from a couple angles on this, don't be too quick to jump to conclusions on the terrorism side of things. From one of my troops on scene, the article does slightly overstate the actions the suspect took, although there was a physical altercation.

Generally speaking, Parliament Hill is like a bug lamp for people who aren't calibrated quite right.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline dapaterson

    Mostly Harmless.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 465,300
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16,848
Re: Domestic Terrorism-Public Attacks on CAF Personnel
« Reply #617 on: July 23, 2018, 16:30:50 »
Generally speaking, Parliament Hill is like a bug lamp for people who aren't calibrated quite right.

Yes, but in this case we're talking about a member of the public, not a Member of Parliament...
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline medicineman

  • Well stuck into my new job and thoroughly enjoying it.
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 148,895
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,355
  • In Arduis Fidelis
    • Fed By The Firehose
Re: Domestic Terrorism-Public Attacks on CAF Personnel
« Reply #618 on: July 23, 2018, 16:32:43 »
Yes, but in this case we're talking about a member of the public, not a Member of Parliament...

 :rofl:
MM

Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

Online Remius

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 120,345
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,565
Re: Domestic Terrorism-Public Attacks on CAF Personnel
« Reply #619 on: July 23, 2018, 16:34:05 »
From what I'm hearing from a couple angles on this, don't be too quick to jump to conclusions on the terrorism side of things. From one of my troops on scene, the article does slightly overstate the actions the suspect took, although there was a physical altercation.

Generally speaking, Parliament Hill is like a bug lamp for people who aren't calibrated quite right.

Yup. Pretty much.

When I worked for the NCC last century I can attest to plenty of mental health cases around and even living on the grounds.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 16:46:13 by Remius »
Optio

Offline garb811

  • MP/MPO Question Answerer
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 88,435
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,646
Re: Domestic Terrorism-Public Attacks on CAF Personnel
« Reply #620 on: July 24, 2018, 21:07:21 »
No charges against man arrested in Hill incident: Ottawa police

Quote
...
On Monday, parliamentary security officers detained Mooney during the Changing of the Guard ceremony on Parliament Hill, where Canadian Armed Forces members perform an almost daily ceremony that has been a colourful summer tradition since 1959.

A video posted online showed several Mounties and parliamentary security officers pinning someone to the ground on the east lawn. Authorities say a small pocket knife was discovered nearby.

Mooney was handed over to Ottawa police who charged him with assault with a weapon, possession of a weapon, assault causing bodily harm and failure to comply with a probation order in relation to the Sunday events.

Ottawa police originally said Mooney would face two charges related to the Hill incident, but on Tuesday afternoon the force said it did not plan to lay them.
...
Full story at link.

Offline 211RadOp

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 26,443
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 895
  • Now is the tyme....damn missed again....Now is the
Re: Domestic Terrorism-Public Attacks on CAF Personnel
« Reply #621 on: June 24, 2019, 14:46:04 »
Man who attacked soldiers in 2016 shouldn't have been acquitted of terror charges: Crown

Ayanle Hassan Ali attacked soldiers at a military recruitment centre in March 2016

CBC News · Posted: Jun 24, 2019 1:26 PM ET | Last Updated: 39 minutes ago

Quote
A man with schizophrenia who was found not criminally responsible after he attacked soldiers at a military recruitment centre in Toronto should be considered his own 'lone wolf terrorist group,' argued crown prosecutors at the Ontario Court of Appeal Monday.

Ayanle Hassan Ali was also acquitted of terror-related charges in May 2018 after Judge Ian MacDonnell said Ali's actions do not fit the intended scope of Canadian terrorism laws.

At the time, MacDonnell said the definition of a terrorist under the criminal code could not apply to "an alleged one-person terrorist group."

On Monday, the Crown said the judge erred in his decision and argued that a terrorist "can be a lone actor," said Federal Crown Jason Wakley.

"Terrorist activity can be committed as readily by an individual — a lone wolf — as it can by a larger group," read the Crown's factum.

"He committed the offences for the benefit of or in association with his own lone wolf 'terrorist group,'" it continued.

Prosecutors are asking for a new trial on the terrorism charges - insisting Ali should have been found not criminally responsible and not acquitted.

For their part, Ali's lawyers argue "Mr. Ali acted alone — driven by his delusions and hallucinations — and not for the benefit of, at the direction of or in association with a terrorist group."

Soldiers attacked at Toronto recruitment office

On March 14, 2016, Ali entered a Canadian Forces recruitment office in north Toronto at 4900 Yonge Street, armed with a knife, and attacked uniformed soldiers, leaving at least two with minor injuries. He was then overpowered and subdued.

Ali repeatedly punched and slashed at one soldier, leaving the man with a three-inch gash on his arm.

He then tried to stab or slash three other military personnel  — one of whom was left with bruises and a "small, superficial nick" — before being subdued, an agreed statement of fact read.

Ali pleaded not guilty to three counts of attempted murder, three counts of assault with a weapon, two counts of assault causing bodily harm and one count of carrying a weapon for the purpose of committing an offence, all for the benefit or at the direction of a terror organization.

"The attack was motivated by the defendant's radical religious and ideological beliefs but there is no dispute that the formation of those beliefs was in large part precipitated by mental disorder," the judge said in his decision at the time.

"One of the beliefs that the defendant had formed in his mentally disordered state was that killing Canadian military personnel was justified because the military was fighting in Muslim lands."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ayanle-hassan-ali-crown-appeal-1.5187613
“Behind every great man is a woman rolling her eyes." Jim Carrey
"Do unto others, then run." Benny Hill
"There's no better feeling in the world than a warm pizza box on your lap." Kevin James