Author Topic: Infantry Officer Training and Progression  (Read 22709 times)

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Offline abb115

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Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« on: March 17, 2015, 19:27:26 »
How long is the typical progression from enrollment to becoming fully trained as a Regular Force Infantry Officer, and what rank do you come out as (usually), 2lt?

Thanks for your time.

Offline ballz

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Re: Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2015, 19:54:10 »
Which entry plan? It makes a big difference.
Have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?

Offline abb115

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Re: Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2015, 00:36:40 »
Direct entry

Offline ballz

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Re: Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2015, 21:20:57 »
As a DEO, it will take at least a year for you to finish your training (and that would be sheer luck to have your Basic, BMOQ-L, DP1.1, DP1.2 all line up perfectly so that you can just continue on to the next course as soon as one ends), so you will be an Lt by the time you get to battalion.

For some DEOs, for various reason, it takes 2 or more years to finish train ing and get to battalion. So some guys show up in December and are promoted to Captain within a few months. There were a few rare cases of people being a Captain as soon as they showed up to battalion.

In any case, 3 years from the day of your commission, you'll be a Captain, unless you step on your d*ck or end up in a medical situation that prevent you from being promoted, that kind of stuff.
Have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?

Offline abb115

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Re: Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2015, 02:44:57 »
Thanks ballz, exactly what I was looking for.

Offline Ayrsayle

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Re: Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2015, 21:39:41 »
Having been lucky and had everything line up near perfect - 1 year, 3 months.  This was with no longer then a 2 week (ish) period in between courses.  This is also not the norm, especially with changes to how they plan on offering the DP1.1 and 1.2 courses in the future.
Leadership is understanding people and involving them to help you do a job. That takes all of the good characteristics, like integrity, dedication of purpose, selflessness, knowledge, skill, implacability, as well as determination not to accept failure. ~Admiral Arleigh A. Burke

"It takes 10 minutes to dress like an Infantryman, but it takes a few years to become a good one" - Jungle (Army.ca)

Offline Rick Goebel

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Re: Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2016, 17:49:00 »
It is interesting that, in the latest edition of The Infantry Corps Newsletter (http://www.ducimus.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Infantry-Corps-Newsletter-Volume-2-Issue-2-final.pdf), there are two articles on Infantry officer training.

One, from the Infantry School, introduces an increase in course length for the BMOQ-A from 10 to 11 weeks and an elimination of the option to take the course in modules.  There are reasons advanced for this including "Finally,improved mental robustness is a major goal of the course, not only to improve success on BMOQ-A, but to improve the candidates’ ability to succeed on their next phases of training and throughout their career."

The other, by a senior officer of a reserve infantry unit, advocates shortening and rescheduling officer training for reservists, including BMOQ-A, because "It is important to keep in mind that no PRes officer, not even an undergraduate university student, has infinite availability."

Clearly, there is at least some conflict between providing the best conceivable training for potential reserve officers and increasing the pool of potential good infantry officers.

What are your thoughts on this?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2016, 18:53:34 by Rick Goebel »
Rick Goebel
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Offline RomeoJuliet

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Re: Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2016, 20:33:43 »
It is interesting that, in the latest edition of The Infantry Corps Newsletter (http://www.ducimus.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Infantry-Corps-Newsletter-Volume-2-Issue-2-final.pdf), there are two articles on Infantry officer training.

One, from the Infantry School, introduces an increase in course length for the BMOQ-A from 10 to 11 weeks and an elimination of the option to take the course in modules.  There are reasons advanced for this including "Finally,improved mental robustness is a major goal of the course, not only to improve success on BMOQ-A, but to improve the candidates’ ability to succeed on their next phases of training and throughout their career."

The other, by a senior officer of a reserve infantry unit, advocates shortening and rescheduling officer training for reservists, including BMOQ-A, because "It is important to keep in mind that no PRes officer, not even an undergraduate university student, has infinite availability."

Clearly, there is at least some conflict between providing the best conceivable training for potential reserve officers and increasing the pool of potential good infantry officers.

What are your thoughts on this?
In my opinion Major Palmer's thesis regarding a new proposed training scheme for PRes army officers could be a solution to our issues of getting our officers trained effectively and up to standard.

Another issue is do we need non combat arms PRes officers to undergo a 10 or 11 week BMOQ-A?


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Offline Ayrsayle

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Re: Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2016, 23:06:04 »
At the risk of stoking a lot of passionate responses (and all of my commentary is general - there are always specific exceptions):

At some point, I believe the Army needs to come to some degree of understanding that the product you obtain from a part-time soldier is different then the product you get (or will be, as time goes on) from a Reg F soldier.  A Reg F member has no "other job" to complete with for time/focus and his focus is to be a soldier whereas a PRes member's participation is subordinate to their other needs (earning a living, etc). 

Either we embrace the "Everyone trains to the same standard" entirely (and make an unfair demand on Soldiers who only get part time training/development in comparison to their Reg F counterparts) or we train the PRes and the Reg F to different standards and accept that they are not simply able to "plug and play" in all capacities.  Some PRes Members can make up the gap either through additional effort or exceptionalism - but in general (from my limited exposure and observation) are pushed along in their careers at a rate faster then their Reg F counterparts without truly having a chance to master their current rank level, etc (Which also happens in the Reg F - but there is usually more options to choose from as to whom gets promoted). 

I recently got to listen to the Commandant of the Infantry School's take on it last year and his take on it was fairly straightforward:  with a nearly 50% failure rate during Infantry Officer training, how do we better prepare members for success?  His arguement was more training earlier, with a renewed emphasis on mental resiliance.

Working in a PRes Unit - I see what happens to a great number of individuals who complete their Phase 2 training then wait a year without following up on the skillsets - often equals a quick return home from training.  However, a reservist doesnt have the ability to complete all the training back to back.

Both arguements presented above are valid, depending on which viewpoint you feel the training should take.
Leadership is understanding people and involving them to help you do a job. That takes all of the good characteristics, like integrity, dedication of purpose, selflessness, knowledge, skill, implacability, as well as determination not to accept failure. ~Admiral Arleigh A. Burke

"It takes 10 minutes to dress like an Infantryman, but it takes a few years to become a good one" - Jungle (Army.ca)

Offline RomeoJuliet

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Re: Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2016, 23:42:20 »
At the risk of stoking a lot of passionate responses (and all of my commentary is general - there are always specific exceptions):

At some point, I believe the Army needs to come to some degree of understanding that the product you obtain from a part-time soldier is different then the product you get (or will be, as time goes on) from a Reg F soldier.  A Reg F member has no "other job" to complete with for time/focus and his focus is to be a soldier whereas a PRes member's participation is subordinate to their other needs (earning a living, etc). 

Either we embrace the "Everyone trains to the same standard" entirely (and make an unfair demand on Soldiers who only get part time training/development in comparison to their Reg F counterparts) or we train the PRes and the Reg F to different standards and accept that they are not simply able to "plug and play" in all capacities.  Some PRes Members can make up the gap either through additional effort or exceptionalism - but in general (from my limited exposure and observation) are pushed along in their careers at a rate faster then their Reg F counterparts without truly having a chance to master their current rank level, etc (Which also happens in the Reg F - but there is usually more options to choose from as to whom gets promoted). 

I recently got to listen to the Commandant of the Infantry School's take on it last year and his take on it was fairly straightforward:  with a nearly 50% failure rate during Infantry Officer training, how do we better prepare members for success?  His arguement was more training earlier, with a renewed emphasis on mental resiliance.

Working in a PRes Unit - I see what happens to a great number of individuals who complete their Phase 2 training then wait a year without following up on the skillsets - often equals a quick return home from training.  However, a reservist doesnt have the ability to complete all the training back to back.

Both arguements presented above are valid, depending on which viewpoint you feel the training should take.
Well said Ayrsayle well said.


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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2016, 01:12:40 »
Give me 4 months, a good training team, a field firing area, and mountains.... keep the mess dinners.
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Technoviking

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Re: Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2016, 09:41:11 »
Give me 4 months, a good training team, a field firing area, and mountains.... keep the mess dinners.
:goodpost:
So, there I was....

Offline Mike Bobbitt

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Re: Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2017, 19:42:40 »
All,

Looking for some guidance on how things are supposed to progress for a PRes Infantry Officer. The courses and prerequisites have changed so much since I went through, I am not sure I can adequately guide company officers on what they need to do next.

I have attached a diagram I am building based on various source material (which seems outdated and in conflict, for the most part).

I know there are inaccuracies and errors in what I have so far, so I am looking for corrections. For example, I know there is a time limit for becoming qualified (DP 1) but I am not sure what it is.

Any feedback is appreciated. I'll post the final version as a PowerPoint in case it is of use to others.


Cheers
Mike
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 11:24:42 by Mike Bobbitt »

Offline jeffb

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Re: Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2017, 07:02:42 »
Isn't AJSO and CAFJOD DP 2? I'm pretty sure it is for Reg Force.
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Offline Mike Bobbitt

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Re: Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2017, 09:26:22 »
Thanks, you are correct! Updated diagram is attached to the original post.

I could not find pre-reqs for CAFJOD though and I *believe* you can start that in DP1 so I left shifted it a bit.

Offline RCPalmer

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Re: Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2017, 14:50:30 »
A few things, and this is definitely a moving target.  I calculated a lot of these numbers when researching this article for the Infantry Bulletin:
(http://www.ducimus.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Infantry-Corps-Newsletter-Volume-2-Issue-2-final.pdf), and some things have changed since then.

-PRes BMQ (20 Days ) + PRes BMOQ 2 (10 days) = 30 Days for PRes BMOQ

-BMOQ-A was 50 days in its 2016 iteration, but the course has been de-modularized, and extended from 10 weeks to 11 for this summer. So, now I would say 55 trg days.

-DP 1.1 was 65 trg days when I last checked when researching the article above.

-The DL for PRes ATOC when I took it (2007) was 6 weeks of part time study, while the RegF variant conducted a 5 day full time DL at their home units.  Perhaps someone with more recent experience can comment. 

-IDCC is part of DP3 as I understand it, though AOC is not a pre-requisite. There was a period a few years ago where it was.

-The Joint Reserve Command and Staff Programme consists of 1 year of DL and 2 weeks of residency.  Those who stay on to complete the full JCSP program (along with their RegF brethren) complete a second year of DL and a second 2 week residency for a total of 2 years of DL and 4 weeks of residency.  I am on year 2 of JCSP right now, and only a handful of PRes officers pulled pin at the end of year 1, though you must apply and "compete" for the second year separately.  JCSP in any form is not a pre-requisite for promotion to LCol for the PRes at this time, so I am not sure how you would want to represent that.

I hope this helps. 
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 15:26:33 by RCPalmer »

Offline Mike Bobbitt

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Re: Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2017, 08:34:37 »
Thank-you, it does help. I will make a few more adjustments and post the corrected version shortly.

WRT IDCCC, I believe you can take it in late DP2 or early DP3, which is why it straddles them in the diagram. I tried to show that only ATOC is a pre-req by the yellow line, though I admit it's not very clear.

Offline Ayrsayle

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Re: Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2017, 21:52:36 »
For all CAFJOD modules - there are no prereqs (though AJSO is advised).  You absolutely can complete CAFJOD modules (and AJSO) during DP 1 (I managed to get most of it completed as an Lt) - though your odds of being picked to be loaded on them are less then someone in DP2. We've had success with members at the DP 1 level getting on both.

For PRes AOC, All CAFJOD and AJSO must be completed (the latest I've heard from Bde is that in the very near future all CAFJOD and AJSO must be completed prior to attending ATOC as well).  Having had to fill a wavier out for someone missing one CAFJOD module, I can confirm this is the case.

Having taken IDCCC out of interest last year - there was no DL (I believe it was only two weeks total - we were expected to arrive with a strong knowledge of ATOC material, etc), everything was done in Gagetown.  The only requirement to attend is ATOC.  Candidates were about half and half (Capt/Maj).

As I tell all new officers - get AJSO and CAFJODs done early before you end up being too busy to complete them.  It pays off when the later career courses come up and the Units are trying to send people.

I have a few "projected" career paths pushed out by 39 Bde for PRes Officers, if you wanted additional resources (When Reserve officers should be taking X courses, etc)
Leadership is understanding people and involving them to help you do a job. That takes all of the good characteristics, like integrity, dedication of purpose, selflessness, knowledge, skill, implacability, as well as determination not to accept failure. ~Admiral Arleigh A. Burke

"It takes 10 minutes to dress like an Infantryman, but it takes a few years to become a good one" - Jungle (Army.ca)

Offline Hound Dog

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Re: Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2017, 13:22:23 »
As I can see this being a very useful reference for junior officers and those in the recruiting process, can someone perhaps post a list of all the course acronyms and what they are? I can't keep track anymore, not that I ever really knew in the first place; AOC, AJSO, IDCCC etc.

Offline Ayrsayle

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Re: Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2017, 18:32:11 »
I can see that being difficult - half the acronyms in the army are known for what they are and represent, not what the acronym actually stands for!

DP (1,2,3) - Development Period - usually tied to a specific rank or period of ranks to demonstrate/highlight key skills and capabilities for a member at that rank/period in their career (or what they should attain during that period).

DP1 usually has the following (at least in the Army Officer stream):
BMOQ - Basic Military Officer Qualification (Also called Phase 1)
BMOQ-A - Basic Military Officer Qualification - Army (Replaced BMOQ-L, or previous to that - CAP).  Also called phase 2
Phase 3 and 4 go by a number of different names - they are specific Officer Trade training. (for the infantry, DP 1.1, 1.2, etc)

AJSO - Army Junior Staff Officer - consists of three Mods and replaced AJOSC
CAFJOD - Canadian Armed Forces Junior Officer Development (Programme) - has 7 Mods and replaced the old OPME program
ATOC - Army Tactical Operations Course
AOC - Army Operations Course (?)
IDCCC - Infantry Dismounted Company Commander's Course (typically for the PRes, CTCC - Combat Team Commander's Course is the Reg F, mechanized version).


Leadership is understanding people and involving them to help you do a job. That takes all of the good characteristics, like integrity, dedication of purpose, selflessness, knowledge, skill, implacability, as well as determination not to accept failure. ~Admiral Arleigh A. Burke

"It takes 10 minutes to dress like an Infantryman, but it takes a few years to become a good one" - Jungle (Army.ca)

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2017, 19:04:50 »
JCSP = Joint Command and Staff Programme.  Either a one year residential course (full-time) or a two year Distance Learning (DL) course (part-time while holding down a full-time position elsewhere).

JRCSP - Joint Reserve Command and Staff Programme.  Year one of the JCSP DL programme, for some Reserve Force members who will not go on to do year two.


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Offline Mike Bobbitt

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Re: Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2017, 11:26:09 »
I'd be kidding myself if I said this was the final update, but it is *for now*. I've also attached the PowerPoint version for easy editing.

Offline Ayrsayle

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Re: Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2017, 20:46:02 »
Mike,

Not sure if it is just me, but I'm not seeing any updated files.
Leadership is understanding people and involving them to help you do a job. That takes all of the good characteristics, like integrity, dedication of purpose, selflessness, knowledge, skill, implacability, as well as determination not to accept failure. ~Admiral Arleigh A. Burke

"It takes 10 minutes to dress like an Infantryman, but it takes a few years to become a good one" - Jungle (Army.ca)

Offline Mike Bobbitt

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Re: Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2017, 09:11:41 »
Some changes are subtle, and I probably still have not captured everything correctly. Bottom line, if you see "Mods 1-3" in yellow above CAFJOD (as a pre-req for ATOC), you're seeing the latest.

Corrections still welcome. :)

Offline Ayrsayle

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Re: Infantry Officer Training and Progression
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2017, 17:58:43 »
Thanks for the clarification - I missed the changes to the original file.  It's a handy resource, thanks for sharing.
Leadership is understanding people and involving them to help you do a job. That takes all of the good characteristics, like integrity, dedication of purpose, selflessness, knowledge, skill, implacability, as well as determination not to accept failure. ~Admiral Arleigh A. Burke

"It takes 10 minutes to dress like an Infantryman, but it takes a few years to become a good one" - Jungle (Army.ca)