Author Topic: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote  (Read 83583 times)

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Offline Strike

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2015, 17:07:27 »
From his own mouth on FB...


And he has been part of the movement for some time, even if someone else registered the organization, as both the images and link can attest to.  The fact that union money is involved just puts a bad taste in my mouth.

As for the threat of veterans being present as polling stations on Election Day, that reeks of intimidation, and is something that the CAF has worked to prevent from happening in other countries when they vote.  I can't believe anyone would ever think this is in any way okay in Canada?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/cape-breton-veterans-want-voters-to-think-anyone-but-harper-1.3193469
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Offline Occam

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2015, 19:09:18 »
I've been saying "ABC" since last year.  Does that mean I can claim founder status?  ::)  Part of the campaign is irrelevant.  Right now, there are 11,956 people who are part of the campaign.  Some of them might be union members.  Some might be RCMP.  Some might even be serving CAF members.

I'm still not seeing where this supposed union money is coming from.  The only union money to speak of was donated over three years ago, pushing four, and was to an organization that has nothing to do with the ABC campaign.

I read the comment made about veterans at polling stations, and I don't agree with it either.  My bet is that it's either a fire & brimstone speech gone awry, or he doesn't understand the law.  I do plan on asking about it.

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2015, 19:19:21 »

As for the threat of veterans being present as polling stations on Election Day, that reeks of intimidation, and is something that the CAF has worked to prevent from happening in other countries when they vote.  I can't believe anyone would ever think this is in any way okay in Canada?


Actually, it reeks of old time politicking.  While it may not be seen often in this day and age, there is nothing new about individuals standing outside a polling place to get in a last reminder of their political message before a voter casts a ballot.  It falls into the same category as calls on election day to remind voters to vote (and by the way - consider "numbnuts" when you do) or offers of transport to polling stations.  To compare what these veterans promise with shenanigans seen in some of the shitholes where the CAF has served (including some of these clowns) is somewhat disingenuous.   If there is any "intimidation" in the ABC Veterans' campaign it is a standard garden variety and generally accepted political intimidation that any voters' group can direct at a governing party with whom they have a grievance.

I haven't followed the antics of this group (or ones similar).  I didn't need to be told that a politician (any politician) is an opportunist and would praise me on one hand for my service while at the same time ignore me because it fit their agenda.  However, what seems to bug most about these people is the obstreperous manner in which they have launched their campaign.  It is unusual in Canada (at least for us old Cold War types) to be very publically vocal (in a group) about a political issue.  We spent careers during which our "outraged" political opinions were either kept close to home or (for those in higher echelons) were cause for public resignation (though that usually only reverberated in the military community).  Now, along come a group who are seemingly loud and obnoxious, unruly and rowdy - "unmilitary" - it's not the DS solution.  Well, they don't have to abide by the DS solution, which for many years was the quiet (ineffective?) campaign? of the Legion.  I seem to recall a comment during phase training that you "can't argue tactics" especially if effective (though the DS still dinged you if you failed to follow the conventional methods).  As for these guys, they don't have to follow the conventional methods of other groups.  Their  tactics are working, they are getting some publicity which is the aim.  Whether it is effective can only be determined after the ballots are counted.  There is no DS other than Elections Canada and so far they seem to be abiding by the rules.

Oh, by the way, the beret on the ex-RCR (?) in the red t-shirt - I had an RSM decades and decades ago who wore his beret in a similar fashion (alright, I'm exaggerating . . . but not by much - he would occasionally catch me mimicking his stance and beret - I've done a few extras in my time.)
 


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Offline George Wallace

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2015, 19:42:05 »
Does that mean I can claim founder status?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/cape-breton-veterans-want-voters-to-think-anyone-but-harper-1.3193469

It clearly states that:
Quote
Army veteran Ron Clarke of North Sydney decided to start the ABC campaign last year, with the intention of mobilizing veterans after an election call.

Right there in Black and White.

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Offline Occam

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #54 on: August 21, 2015, 20:44:44 »
Right there in Black and White.

And I said I started saying last year too.  Tom Beaver put his name on the official paperwork.  What does Clarke being a part of the campaign have to do with the price of tea in China?  He's a spokesman for the campaign, just like almost 12,000 other people are.

You're picking flysh*t out of pepper.  Really.  This is what I was talking about in regards to a small group of people with an axe to grind trying to link the campaign to anything they don't personally like in an effort to smear the whole thing.  You're dividing veterans, and that's being part of the problem, not of the solution.

Offline Strike

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #55 on: August 21, 2015, 21:01:09 »
We're dividing veterans?

Any group that supports (or shows lack of support) for one political party over any other is the one doing the dividing, because it is telling those veterans who may still consider voting for the non-favoured group that they are not welcome in that club.

And it's not nitpicking. Clarke didn't say that he decided to vocalize his ABC beliefs or use any other wording that would make it seem like an individual effort. The article says he decided to start the campaign.

Definition of campaign as a verb: work in an organized and active way toward a particular goal, typically a political or social one.
And as a noun: an organized course of action to achieve a particular goal.
That certainly doesn't give the impression of one person acting, but more like organizing and encouraging a group of people.

Your reply seems more like nitpicking, whereas the rest of us are taking the FB posts and news articles at face value.

Oh, and the claim of union funds comes straight from Clarke's own FB post from June. I seriously doubt he would bring up any sponsorship that was given 3 years ago (which by your reasoning, ABC didn't exist so I don't even know why you brought up that comment) which was likely spent some time ago.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 21:05:08 by Strike »
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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #56 on: August 21, 2015, 21:25:16 »
And I said I started saying last year too.  Tom Beaver put his name on the official paperwork.  What does Clarke being a part of the campaign have to do with the price of tea in China?  He's a spokesman for the campaign, just like almost 12,000 other people are.

You're picking flysh*t out of pepper.  Really.  This is what I was talking about in regards to a small group of people with an axe to grind trying to link the campaign to anything they don't personally like in an effort to smear the whole thing.  You're dividing veterans, and that's being part of the problem, not of the solution.

Guess you should have copyrighted your idea.
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Offline Occam

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #57 on: August 21, 2015, 21:30:51 »
Guess you should have copyrighted your idea.

Oh, I'm kicking my own *** over missing out on Velcro and Post-it Notes too, trust me.   ;)

Offline Happy Guy

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #58 on: August 21, 2015, 21:32:33 »
I have been following the news with regards the antics of the ABC groups and I must admit that while it got my attention I find their tactics distasteful and vulgar.  Being an old guy (I joined in 1978) and firm believer in some traditions - keep yourself respectable looking, always maintain your dignity in public, be stoic and be politically neutral.  The noisy and at times rowdy behaviour of these spokespeople for veterans really offends me.

To the ABC groups,
Yes, please air your complaints about the NVC and inadequate medical treatment of veterans but do not display such contempt for beret, cap badge and medals as you wear them during your protests.  Do not wear your "uniform" in front of the voting stations.  To do so, in my opinion, will undermine the dignity of the military attire that you choose to wear.  Yes, I am still serving.  I have deployed overseas.  I have been injured while in uniform but not to the grievous extent as some of my comrads.  I too have honourably served my country that I love to the best of ability and heart, but don't you bloody dare think that you represent me.

I will vote for the political candidate in my riding that I think best represents the needs of MY RIDING and my country.

Offline Occam

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #59 on: August 21, 2015, 22:06:56 »
We're dividing veterans?

Any group that supports (or shows lack of support) for one political party over any other is the one doing the dividing, because it is telling those veterans who may still consider voting for the non-favoured group that they are not welcome in that club.

I seriously doubt anyone is losing sleep over not being a member of that club.  If you like the campaign, you join it.  If you don't, you move on.  Seems pretty simple to me.

The dividing veterans part comes from the fact that we're 58 posts into the discussion on a mostly military/veteran occupied forum, discussing a group of other veterans (as many as 12,000, but obviously somewhere less due to some of them being civilians), and yet the topic of the thread remains "ABC Veteran clowns".  Nice to know that we're all one big happy family!  The ABC campaign isn't calling you any names for choosing to not subscribe to the ABC campaign.  Doesn't bother me any (the clowns reference), but it's a pretty good example.

Quote
And it's not nitpicking. Clarke didn't say that he decided to vocalize his ABC beliefs or use any other wording that would make it seem like an individual effort. The article says he decided to start the campaign.

Definition of campaign as a verb: work in an organized and active way toward a particular goal, typically a political or social one.
And as a noun: an organized course of action to achieve a particular goal.
That certainly doesn't give the impression of one person acting, but more like organizing and encouraging a group of people.

Your reply seems more like nitpicking, whereas the rest of us are taking the FB posts and news articles at face value.

Okay, take this at face value - http://canadianelectionatlas.blogspot.ca/2011/06/conservative-change-08-11.html

There's a reference to an ABC campaign in the 2008 election.  Seems Mr. Clarke wasn't the brainchild after all.  Now I ask you - what does that change, now that you know that?

Quote
Oh, and the claim of union funds comes straight from Clarke's own FB post from June. I seriously doubt he would bring up any sponsorship that was given 3 years ago (which by your reasoning, ABC didn't exist so I don't even know why you brought up that comment) which was likely spent some time ago.

You'll have to refresh my memory if it's been posted already (I don't see it, but I do see Danjanou claiming he saw something about $25K), but which FB post from Clarke in June referred to union funds?  The union funds I referred to were over three years ago, from UVAE to CVA for a specific purpose, and I highly doubt UVAE had the foresight to donate funds almost four years before an ABC Veterans campaign.

I think the problem is that people have gotten a little too much sixth and seventh-hand information, and the story's gotten more distorted every time it gets told.  How about we stick to what we know and can be proven?  The ABC campaign is not affiliated with any other veterans group or union.  If having Clarke or Blais as a member of ABC adds up to an affiliation with another veterans group, then I guess I'm affiliated with Mötley Crüe then by virtue of being a member of their FB group.  I'll be sure to say hi from everybody here to Vince, Tommy, Mick and Nikki at the show on Sunday night.   ;)

Offline George Wallace

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #60 on: August 22, 2015, 09:15:17 »

You'll have to refresh my memory if it's been posted already (I don't see it, but I do see Danjanou claiming he saw something about $25K), but which FB post from Clarke in June referred to union funds?  The union funds I referred to were over three years ago, from UVAE to CVA for a specific purpose, and I highly doubt UVAE had the foresight to donate funds almost four years before an ABC Veterans campaign.

Three years ago.  OK.  I'll accept that.  How many years ago was this "Duffy affair"?  OH!  That was two or three years ago as well.  Yet that is still being pulled forward as an "election issue".  And don't pull the "Oh, but Duffy is on trial card, and the others are not."  Perhaps there should be charges laid for them as well (and perhaps there are already, but not yet public.)  When someone holds one person to account, but ignore others, and I will include Mulcair in this one, over questionable finances, then something is seriously wrong with their thinking.
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Offline Occam

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #61 on: August 22, 2015, 09:30:37 »
Duffy was charged with fraud, breach of trust and bribery.

What criminal acts are you alleging here, in the context of the ABC campaign?

Offline George Wallace

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #62 on: August 22, 2015, 09:41:16 »
Duffy was charged with fraud, breach of trust and bribery.

What criminal acts are you alleging here, in the context of the ABC campaign?

Just wondering why you excuse some of questionable finances, yet open to accuse others?  Is it really appropriate that CDN25K was given to Mr Clarke in the same time-frame?
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Offline Occam

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #63 on: August 22, 2015, 09:54:35 »
Just wondering why you excuse some of questionable finances, yet open to accuse others?  Is it really appropriate that CDN25K was given to Mr Clarke in the same time-frame?

One, I don't know if it actually happened or not - nobody's provided anything in the line of proof.

Two, why are we even discussing this?  I don't know what organization Mr. Clarke is alleged to have been running at the time of this supposed transaction, but is it illegal or even questionable for a union to donate funds to an organization that shares a common goal or two?  I personally don't have a problem with a union backing any group working towards sacking the Conservatives, or any other worthy cause.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #64 on: August 22, 2015, 10:03:45 »
One, I don't know if it actually happened or not - nobody's provided anything in the line of proof.

Two, why are we even discussing this?  I don't know what organization Mr. Clarke is alleged to have been running at the time of this supposed transaction, but is it illegal or even questionable for a union to donate funds to an organization that shares a common goal or two?  I personally don't have a problem with a union backing any group working towards sacking the Conservatives, or any other worthy cause.

And I personally don't have a problem of someone paying back a (supposed) debt to the Government.  Yet, the ABC crowd are crying that the Government is corrupt and voters should vote for anyone but them; all the while we have questions being raised about monies being given to their ranks.  Meanwhile you feel free to defend the ABC crowd, ignoring those accusations, but accepting the accusations laid against others. 
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Offline Occam

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #65 on: August 22, 2015, 10:09:44 »
I've asked this several times now, but it seems to be falling on deaf ears.

What accusation are you making against ABC?  Be specific, and provide proof.

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #66 on: August 22, 2015, 10:12:42 »
 :bigfight: :pop:
I'm just like the CAF, I seem to have retention issues.

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #67 on: August 22, 2015, 10:32:09 »
I think it's rather amusing, JJT...we have several people all making innuendo and accusations of something that nobody has proof of, and even if they did, it doesn't even qualify as "questionable".

I think I'll just sit by and wait for some proof to get offered up, and then for someone to explain what's questionable about it.

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #68 on: August 22, 2015, 12:02:55 »
I think it's rather amusing, JJT...we have several people all making innuendo and accusations of something that nobody has proof of, and even if they did, it doesn't even qualify as "questionable".

I think I'll just sit by and wait for some proof to get offered up, and then for someone to explain what's questionable about it.

Frankly, I do not find any of it amusing.  I find the whole political process as putrefying. If any military personnel or previous military members are part of it, they should do so with proper decorum and respect.
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Offline Occam

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #69 on: August 22, 2015, 12:39:01 »
Frankly, I do not find any of it amusing.  I find the whole political process as putrefying. If any military personnel or previous military members are part of it, they should do so with proper decorum and respect.

I agree.  Other than the guy with a dodgy beret and t-shirt, and a fire & brimstone speech that went a little too far with the picketing polling stations issue, I would say the campaign is sticking to the facts and conducting themselves well. 

Somehow, I get the feeling that a certain group of people will still go out of their way to fabricate arguments against the campaign because of their own political beliefs, and not because there's something wrong with the campaign itself.

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #70 on: August 22, 2015, 12:46:47 »
I agree.  Other than the guy with a dodgy beret and t-shirt, and a fire & brimstone speech that went a little too far with the picketing polling stations issue, I would say the campaign is sticking to the facts and conducting themselves well. 

Somehow, I get the feeling that a certain group of people will still go out of their way to fabricate arguments against the campaign because of their own political beliefs, and not because there's something wrong with the campaign itself.

It just takes one awshit to discount 20 attaboys.
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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #71 on: August 22, 2015, 12:49:35 »
I agree.  Other than the guy with a dodgy beret and t-shirt, and a fire & brimstone speech that went a little too far with the picketing polling stations issue, I would say the campaign is sticking to the facts and conducting themselves well. 

Somehow, I get the feeling that a certain group of people will still go out of their way to fabricate present arguments against the campaign because of their own political beliefs, and not because there's something wrong with the campaign itself.


Of course they will (if you'll agree that "fabricate" is a loaded word) because it is a political campaign and opinions matter. You have an opinion, one to which you are certainly entitled; your interlocutor has a different opinion, one which he is entitled to hold, too. You're not going to convince one another, in fact you're not really trying to convince one another: neither of you wants to concede even the smallest point to the other, nor does either of you want to let the other the last word.
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Offline recceguy

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #72 on: August 22, 2015, 12:52:53 »
 

Of course they will (if you'll agree that "fabricate" is a loaded word) because it is a political campaign and opinions matter. You have an opinion, one to which you are certainly entitled; your interlocutor has a different opinion, one which he is entitled to hold, too. You're not going to convince one another, in fact you're not really trying to convince one another: neither of you wants to concede even the smallest point to the other, nor does either of you want to let the other the last word.

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #73 on: August 22, 2015, 12:59:38 »
Mea Culpa ERC and Recceguy. I will stop  :deadhorse:
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Offline Occam

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #74 on: August 22, 2015, 13:10:48 »
Of course they will (if you'll agree that "fabricate" is a loaded word) because it is a political campaign and opinions matter. You have an opinion, one to which you are certainly entitled; your interlocutor has a different opinion, one which he is entitled to hold, too. You're not going to convince one another, in fact you're not really trying to convince one another: neither of you wants to concede even the smallest point to the other, nor does either of you want to let the other the last word.

Opinions are fine; I have no problem with opinions when they're based on fact.

What I do have a problem with is opinions based on hearsay, innuendo, and maliciousness - and when those opinions are challenged, seldom does the requisite proof get offered up; but the lingering innuendo and maliciousness is left there to fester for all to see.

On the rest, we agree.