Author Topic: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)  (Read 367957 times)

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Offline kev994

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1625 on: June 14, 2017, 19:51:32 »
Super Hornet apparently has a foreign sales tax for us, F35 does not.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1626 on: June 14, 2017, 20:49:24 »
C.P.:

Do those figures include the latest software upgrade charges?

Bearpaw

Can't honestly say.  Any references in the articles cited?
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1627 on: June 15, 2017, 12:12:52 »
More on Boeing's restructuring, and the corollaries across the defence industry, by Sandra Erwin  http://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2017/06/15/boeing_defense_shake-up_signals_broader_shifts_in_industry_111592.html

Quote
“A company like Boeing is in a difficult spot,” Mahoney says. Its defense business is heavily reliant on traditional military hardware like fighter jets and satellites. It now has to figure out how to position itself for a future when wars are fought with vastly different tools, Mahoney observes. “We are changing from the old model of large-scale invasions and occupations to virtual war waged constantly.”

How's Kodak doing these days?
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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1628 on: June 17, 2017, 13:49:27 »
Meanwhile, from the CDS (via CBC) ...
Quote
The chief of the defence staff says he is keeping the F-35 fighter jet on the table as suitable option to bolster the air force's fleet, despite the Liberals' campaign promise not to buy the jet.

"The most critical thing for me, as I look to the long term health and capacity of the institution, is that very important commitment to an open competition with no barriers to that competition," Gen. Jonathan Vance, told Chris Hall, host of CBC Radio's The House.

(...)

The defence plan calls for a "fighter fleet that is capable, upgradeable, resilient and interoperable with our allies and partners to ensure Canada continues to meet its Norad and NATO commitments."

When asked if the open competition would include Lockheed Martin's F-35, Vance said it does.

"It includes all of the planes. It includes the Super Hornet, the F-35 , all of the planes. That's a good thing so we can actually see what planes are going to provide us the operational advantage that we need as we defend Canada and operate globally," he said ...
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Offline AlexanderM

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1629 on: June 19, 2017, 11:03:19 »
If this is true, in terms of cost, then there shouldn't be any problem for us to make a purchase at either $95M USD or the quoted $85M USD. Our new fighter budget can easily handle these numbers. I take it, should we go ahead, we will still order the version capable of carrying 6 internal missiles, and would expect to eventually be able to carry the Meteor missile.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/19/news/companies/lockheed-martin-f35-fighter-jet-deal/index.html
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 11:50:08 by AlexanderM »

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1630 on: June 19, 2017, 11:13:03 »
Gosh!  Finland to issue RFP for new fighter to replace Hornets next year:

Quote
Competitors jockey for Finland fighter deal

In a significant move, Finland’s Finance Ministry has included a provision to pay for the first tranche of the proposed new fighter acquisition from debt incurred from 2018 to 2019. It's a decision that has spurred competitors' marketing to kick into overdrive.

The government plans to fund the first tranche, payment expected by 2021, from loans totaling €3.6 billion (U.S. $4 billion). 

"We are confident the operating and maintenance costs of the fighters we are buying can be covered from within the annual defense budgets going forward," said Petteri Orpo, Finland’s finance minister.

Five international bidding groups, including Boeing (F/A-18E/F Super Hornet), Lockheed Martin (F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter), BAE Systems (Eurofighter Typhoon), Saab (Gripen E) and Dassault Aviation (Rafale), will battle for the HX FPP contract. Depending on the aircraft type selected by Finland, the value of the contract is expected to be worth between €7 billion (U.S. $7.8 billion) and €10 billion (U.S. $11.2 billion).

The next stage in the HX FPP will see Finland's Defence project office issue requests for proposals to the governments of the five aircraft manufacturers. The RFPs will be sent out to competing manufacturers during the second quarter of 2018. In a forward-looking request, the MoD will ask all five manufacturers to demonstrate how the capabilities of their specific fighter aircraft offerings can be augmented by other aircraft types, including unmanned platforms like surveillance and weaponized drones.

"The Finnish Air Force (FAF) of tomorrow will need to be stronger and more adaptable. We are looking for a full range of options that will reflect possible future changes in air defense," said Jussi Niinistö, Finland’s defense minister.

The FAF is on course to replace its existing fleet of an estimated 60 operational multi-role Boeing F/A-18 Hornets by 2025 [emphasis added, cf. RCAF]...
http://www.defensenews.com/articles/competitors-jockey-for-finland-fighter-deal

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Offline Quirky

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1631 on: June 19, 2017, 11:55:07 »
If this is true, in terms of cost, then there shouldn't be any problem for us to make a purchase at either $95M USD or the quoted $85M USD. Our new fighter budget can easily handle these numbers.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/19/news/companies/lockheed-martin-f35-fighter-jet-deal/index.html

Buying a fighter jet in Canada would require a decision to be made, something our politicians and leadership can't do. We can't provide proper boots for our feet so how the hell can they decide on jets. Our procurement process is a circus of epic proportions, our allies will be flying their F35s come 2020 and we will still be just talking about it.

Meanwhile at the CDS' office....



Offline AlexanderM

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1632 on: June 19, 2017, 12:15:06 »
I was more refering to the fact that with the new budget and the most recent price quote we can now afford to purchase the F-35 should we choose to. We could also purchase F-35 interim fighters at those numbers. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Trump we needed a political solution to get military spending in Canada up to where it should be and with the 70% increase in defence spending we are now getting somewhere. I think it's entirely possible that the poitics of the situation may yet lead us back to the F-35, especially with numbers like the ones linked to above. We just need to let the political process continue.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1633 on: June 19, 2017, 12:15:36 »
Gosh!  Finland to issue RFP for new fighter to replace Hornets next year:

Mark
Ottawa

Even more radical ..... a clear statement of financing.  The Finns will borrow money to buy the planes today and then pay back the loan over time.

Why does nobody else do stuff like that?  I mean with thinking like that you could buy all sorts of stuff - planes, ships, bridges, houses, cars.

Sarcasm off.  I actually really like this because it clarifies budgeting - it clearly defines the purpose of borrowing, as opposed to borrowing for general revenues, and it clearly defines a payment plan.

Finland's books are in very good condition, even by northern European standards.   We could consider some emulation.
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1634 on: June 19, 2017, 12:45:16 »
F-35 demonstration pilot promises to crush previous impressions of the F-35 with his performance at the Paris Air show:

http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-show-2017/f-35-demo-pilot-paris-performance-will-crush-years-misinformation

Quote
F-35 Demo Pilot: Paris Performance Will ‘Crush Years Of Misinformation'
Jun 18, 2017 Lara Seligman | ShowNews

Not as agile as the Super Hornet nor as fast as the Typhoon? Don’t you believe it, says Lockheed Martin test pilot Billie Flynn. He will put the F-35A through its paces at Le Bourget this week, proving that the aircraft is more maneuverable than any he has flown, he says, including Boeing’s F/A-18, the Eurofighter, and his own company’s F-16 Viper.

“After 10 years since first flight, with our first opportunity to demonstrate the capabilities and the maneuverability of the F-35, we are going to crush years of misinformation about what this aircraft is capable of doing,” Flynn said in an interview with Aviation Week.

The F-35’s maneuverability is all the more impressive because, unlike the F-16s that perform at air shows, the Joint Strike Fighter flying the demonstration this week is fully combat-ready. Flynn’s F-35A will move easily through complex aerial maneuvers loaded with everything it needs to go to war.

“All of those airplanes that do air shows—the Hornet, Viper—they are all slicked off without all the external stores,” Flynn said. “They are a party trick at an air show, versus a combat-configured F-22 or F-35.”

The flight demonstration is carefully scripted to highlight the kinematic capabilities of the F-35A, particularly its slow-speed handling qualities, said Flynn. He will start with an afterburner takeoff, almost immediately pointing his nose to the sky and letting the aircraft climb away essentially vertically. This impressive move is unique to the F-22 and the F-35, he said.


Billie Flynn aims to silence the skeptics with complex F-35A demo flights at the Paris Air Show.

Next, Flynn will reverse back in front of the crowd, and perform a “square loop” to show the aircraft’s instantaneous pitch capability and high angle-of-attack (AOA) maneuverability. Then he will turn around, reverse back in front of the crowd, and perform a slow-speed, high-AOA pass. Afterward, he will light the afterburner and fly straight up into the sky once again.

From there, Flynn will pull up vertically in front of the crowd and execute a maximum AOA “power loop,” where the aircraft flips on its back—another signature Raptor move. Then he will initiate a spiral at 50 degrees AOA, called a “pedal turn,” which he says will be the most impressive part of the entire routine.

After reversing again in front of the crowd, the last move is a maximum-G, 360-deg. turn, which highlights the maximum-rate, minimum-radius-turn capability of the aircraft, Flynn said. The F-35 in its current 3i configuration is limited to 7g; when the fighter gets its full war-fighting capability with the final 3F software, it will be able to pull 9gs.

“This aircraft down low in this environment is an absolute monster,” said Flynn. ”It is more powerful, it is more aggressive than any of us, including those of us that fly the F-35, would have imagined before we began this flight-demo process.”

The high show does not include the F-35 opening its weapon-bay doors, as the F-22 does during its airshow routine. The low show, which the F-35 will perform if there is inclement weather or cloud ceiling, includes opening the weapon-bay doors, according to Lockheed spokesman Mark Johnson.

Lockheed’s F-35 airshow profile has been in the works for well over a year, according to Flynn. The team has conducted over 800 simulator runs to evaluate the profile, and Flynn began practicing in the aircraft at the company’s facility in Fort Worth, Texas, about a month ago.

The company has developed air show routines for all three F-35 variants—the U.S. Navy F-35C carrier variant and the U.S. Marine Corps F-35B vertical-takeoff-and-landing variant as well—but this year Flynn is focused on the U.S. Air Force F-35A version.

Flynn had to modify the routine to accommodate airspace restrictions unique to the Paris show, he said. Flying is limited laterally and vertically because of Le Bourget’s proximity to both to the city of Paris and Charles De Gaulle Airport. Flynn is also limited by time—he only has 6 min. for the routine at Le Bourget, where at most air shows he would have 10 min.

“We focused on the ‘wow’ factor and left out the elements of a routine that would be part of a non-Paris-type profile,” Flynn said. “You have to live inside very tight restrictive boundaries, but it still permits us to put on a show that I believe will squelch the critics once and for all.”

So how will the F-35 demonstration compare to the Raptor’s always-impressive routine? It’s very similar, Flynn said.

“We all love what the Raptor can do. I would say the F-35 and the F-22 both put on demonstrations that are unique to our fifth-gen maneuverability,” said Flynn. “But don’t forget, that’s not how we dominate—we dominate because of stealth and sensor fusion.”

The two F-35As from Hill AFB, Utah, arrived at Le Bourget Airport June 13 and will be maintained on-site by Air Force maintainers and security personnel. One aircraft will be flying, and one will be on static display.

The "against" arguments continue to weaken. All I will say is the longer we delay the less relevant we will become in the future, and acting as bomb and missile "trucks" for foreign flight leaders in F-35's to direct takes away any illusions of Canada's independent ability to act or even place our own "national caveats" on actions (when a USAF, RAF or Danish flight leader is roaming ahead and designating targets, do you really think the Canadian pilot gets to question what is being shot at?)
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Rifleman62

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1635 on: June 19, 2017, 14:15:46 »
F-35 Aerial Demonstration Debut at 2017 Paris Air Show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93NdwZAeXhI

And:

Lockheed Martin’s F-35A Performs Validation Flight at Paris Air Show 2017 – AINtv Express


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFa44zqfF3k

Published on Jun 16, 2017
Before the opening of the 2017 Paris Air Show, Lockheed Martin senior experimental test pilot Billie Flynn must validate the F-35A Lightning II flying display for show officials, providing an early opportunity to see it in action. This is the F-35A model, which is flown by the United States Air Force, and it is the first time it has appeared at the Paris Air Show. Last year, the STOVL-capable F-35B variant made its international

« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 14:23:54 by Rifleman62 »
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Offline AlexanderM

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1636 on: June 19, 2017, 14:30:35 »
It didn't seem to need much runway for the takeoff, so the length of runway is for landing? The F-35 does need a rather long runway compared to some other fighter jets, yes??

Offline Quirky

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1637 on: June 19, 2017, 15:24:51 »
It didn't seem to need much runway for the takeoff, so the length of runway is for landing? The F-35 does need a rather long runway compared to some other fighter jets, yes??

No it doesn't. It was probably initially at airshow weight - minimal fuel load and nothing else, just like all the other airshow performers. Even our CF18 demo aircraft isn't fully fuelled for its show making the takeoff shorter. Give it three jugs and a few thousand lbs worth of ammunition then it takes a lot more runway for rotation.

Offline AlexanderM

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1638 on: June 19, 2017, 15:54:58 »
No it doesn't. It was probably initially at airshow weight - minimal fuel load and nothing else, just like all the other airshow performers. Even our CF18 demo aircraft isn't fully fuelled for its show making the takeoff shorter. Give it three jugs and a few thousand lbs worth of ammunition then it takes a lot more runway for rotation.
If you read the article above, it refutes what your saying, not the same configuration as the other air show performers. The reason I brought it up was that modifications to our airfields was a requirement to operate the F-35 and I recall that lengthening the runways was one of the requirements.

I'm now thinking that it is likely in the event that the aircraft is carrying a full compliment of external weapons and fuel which would only occur when stealth is not required.

From above:

The F-35’s maneuverability is all the more impressive because, unlike the F-16s that perform at air shows, the Joint Strike Fighter flying the demonstration this week is fully combat-ready. Flynn’s F-35A will move easily through complex aerial maneuvers loaded with everything it needs to go to war.

“All of those airplanes that do air shows—the Hornet, Viper—they are all slicked off without all the external stores,” Flynn said. “They are a party trick at an air show, versus a combat-configured F-22 or F-35.”
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 17:22:25 by AlexanderM »

Offline Thucydides

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1639 on: June 19, 2017, 18:45:17 »
It didn't seem to need much runway for the takeoff, so the length of runway is for landing? The F-35 does need a rather long runway compared to some other fighter jets, yes??

Full afterburner takeoffs should not take a lot of runway. It might be terminology, but using afterburners and doing a vertical zoom climb was pioneered back in the 80's by F-15 and F-16 pilots. The aircraft had power to weight ratios over unity with afterburner, allowing them to accelerate in vertical climbs.....

I'm not clear if the F-35 has a greater than usual landing run compared to similarly sized fighters, but the Paris Airshow demonstration had the plane with a full loadout so was landing heavier than what may be normal.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline AlexanderM

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1640 on: June 19, 2017, 18:59:05 »
Full afterburner takeoffs should not take a lot of runway. It might be terminology, but using afterburners and doing a vertical zoom climb was pioneered back in the 80's by F-15 and F-16 pilots. The aircraft had power to weight ratios over unity with afterburner, allowing them to accelerate in vertical climbs.....

I'm not clear if the F-35 has a greater than usual landing run compared to similarly sized fighters, but the Paris Airshow demonstration had the plane with a full loadout so was landing heavier than what may be normal.
I'm now thinking that the extra runway length is likely only required when it carries a full external load, as it can carry quite a bit of external weapons and fuel. I imagine that we would normally use the aircraft with internal weapons and fuel only so it wouldn't normally require more runway, it's just that we would need it just in case.

Offline Loachman

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1641 on: June 19, 2017, 23:13:23 »
the length of runway is for landing?

I am not quite sure what your question is.

More runway is generally required for landing, compared to take-off.

One can generally begin one's take-off run at or near the threshold of a runway, but the touchdown zone is generally between 500 and 1000 feet down the runway.

A jet engine is more powerful than brakes. An aircraft will accelerate more quickly than it can decelerate, hence the landing roll will be longer.

Tailhooks and drogue chutes can be used to shorten the landing roll, but I do not believe that F35A has either.

Some information regarding runways and markings can be found at http://code7700.com/aim_point_vs_touchdown_point.htm and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runway

Offline AlexanderM

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1642 on: June 19, 2017, 23:34:28 »
I am not quite sure what your question is.

More runway is generally required for landing, compared to take-off.

One can generally begin one's take-off run at or near the threshold of a runway, but the touchdown zone is generally between 500 and 1000 feet down the runway.

A jet engine is more powerful than brakes. An aircraft will accelerate more quickly than it can decelerate, hence the landing roll will be longer.

Tailhooks and drogue chutes can be used to shorten the landing roll, but I do not believe that F35A has either.

Some information regarding runways and markings can be found at http://code7700.com/aim_point_vs_touchdown_point.htm and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runway
Your obviously not quite sure what my question is. In order to operate the F-35 I remember that in the original $9B budget there was money to lengthen some of our airfields, so when I saw how quickly the F-35 got up in the air I thought, it doesn't look like it needs much runway, so why do we need to lenghten some airfields? That is all.

Offline YeomanScrap

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1643 on: June 20, 2017, 00:08:23 »
I am not quite sure what your question is.

More runway is generally required for landing, compared to take-off.

One can generally begin one's take-off run at or near the threshold of a runway, but the touchdown zone is generally between 500 and 1000 feet down the runway.

A jet engine is more powerful than brakes. An aircraft will accelerate more quickly than it can decelerate, hence the landing roll will be longer.

Tailhooks and drogue chutes can be used to shorten the landing roll, but I do not believe that F35A has either.

Some information regarding runways and markings can be found at http://code7700.com/aim_point_vs_touchdown_point.htm and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runway

F-35A has a dinky Air Force hook. Wouldn't want to use it every landing.

Your obviously not quite sure what my question is. In order to operate the F-35 I remember that in the original $9B budget there was money to lengthen some of our airfields, so when I saw how quickly the F-35 got up in the air I thought, it doesn't look like it needs much runway, so why do we need to lenghten some airfields? That is all.

Building off Loachman's explanation:

It's landing with a load. The F-35 can carry a hell of a lot more than the Hornet (empty weight 29,000lb vs. 23,000lb, but MTOW 70,000lb vs. 52,000lb), and trying to bring that back at 160kts is a tonne of kinetic energy. Said tonne of energy has to be carried away by 2 brakes for which weight and size are far more important than performance. This takes time and runway length.

Now, regarding the actual budget: Maybe the crosswind rwy at Bagotville? It's the only one I can think that's a bit tight (if you can call a full nautical mile tight). The main runways at CYOD and CYBG are 10,000ft. or more. The other option is a political hatchet job. Always a possibility with the F-35.

Offline jmt18325

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1644 on: June 20, 2017, 00:10:02 »
I thought the runways that may have needed lengthening were Inuvik and Rankin Inlet? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_NORAD_Region_Forward_Operating_Locations

Edit: Based on that possibly Yellowknife as well - Iqaluit would seem to be fine, and Goose Bay (not an official FOB, but used as a forward operating location) would definitely be fine.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 00:13:49 by jmt18325 »

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1646 on: June 20, 2017, 11:34:48 »
Round and round they go (note other manufacturers):

Quote
Liberal ministers meet Lockheed Martin at Paris Air Show, snub Boeing

The Trudeau government appears to have given aerospace giant Boeing the cold shoulder in Paris -- the latest sign that the Liberal government's plan to buy Super Hornet fighter jets could be on the rocks.

Three cabinet ministers are in the French capital this week to promote Canada's aerospace sector and meet various companies at the Paris Air Show, one of the largest such exhibitions in the world.

Those meetings included discussions with Lockheed Martin, which is hoping its F-35 stealth fighter will replace Canada's aging fleet of CF-18s whenever a competition is launched. Meetings between Canadian officials and three other fighter-jet makers -- French firm Dassault, Sweden's Saab and European consortium Eurofighter -- were also scheduled [emphasis added].

 But in separate interviews, Transport Minister Marc Garneau and Economic Development Minister Navdeep Bains said there were no plans to sit down with Boeing officials.

Bains specifically cited Boeing's complaints to the U.S. Commerce Department about Canadian rival Bombardier as the reason for the snub.

"We think that approach makes no sense, and we've been very clear about the fact that we reject those allegations that they're making," Bains said by telephone.

"Hence that is why we didn't engage with Boeing at this stage."

Boeing also had its invitation to a reception hosted by Canadian Ambassador to France Lawrence Cannon rescinded, said one source who spoke on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the matter...
http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/liberal-ministers-meet-lockheed-martin-at-paris-air-show-snub-boeing-1.3466645

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Offline Quirky

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1647 on: June 20, 2017, 14:21:22 »
I thought the runways that may have needed lengthening were Inuvik and Rankin Inlet? 

They need lengthening regardless of what aircraft we operate, unless of course Arctic Sovereignty isn't a priority anymore. The strips at Inuvik and Rankin are tiny.

Offline suffolkowner

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1648 on: June 20, 2017, 15:47:12 »
I don't think there's anyway that runway improvements were included in the $9B/65=$138. I think this has been discussed at length here before but I don't think the F-35 actually needs 10,000 ft of runway, there's a healthy safety margin in there

Offline George Wallace

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #1649 on: June 20, 2017, 18:36:17 »
Looking at this, and fearing that someone in the Government may have seen it as well, I fear that the Good Idea Faerie may find this the least expensive way to purchase enough F-35's to replace all our fighter fleets and still have money to spare.  For your viewing pleasure, the possible future of the RCAF fighter element:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhzoH17yf3o

 >:D
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