Author Topic: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada  (Read 19151 times)

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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2016, 12:06:11 »
LOL this is what got when i goggled Walrus Class submarine



On a more serious note https://rbth.com/news/2016/11/09/dutch-sub-tried-to-approach-russian-aircraft-carrier-group-in-mediterranean_646383

Yep that's what they look like. [:D

The latter newspost,well still not known(whether it's true or not),i mean the Ruski's are known to make up stories,but it could be true.




 Patrol submarine
Walrus class submarine

The Walrus class patrol submarines replaced Dolfijn and Potvis classes
 
 
Entered service    1986
Crew    52 men
Diving depth (operational)    450 m
Diving depth (maximum)    620 m
Dimensions and displacement
Length    67.7 m
Beam    8.4 m
Draught    6.6 m
Surfaced displacement    2 390 tons
Submerged displacement    2 740 tons
Propulsion and speed
Surfaced speed    13 knots
Submerged speed    20 knots
Diesel engines    3 x 6 300 hp
Electric motors    1 x 6 910 hp
Armament
Missiles    Sub-Harpoon anti-ship missiles
Torpedoes    4 x 533-mm bow tubes for 20 Mk 48 dual-role torpedoes
Other    up to 40 influence ground mines in place of missiles and torpedoes

 

   Based on the US Navy's teardrop-hulled Barbel class of conventional submarine, the Dutch Zwaardvis and Tijgerhaai of the Zwaardvis class were ordered in the mid-1960s. Because of the requirement to use indigenous Dutch equipment wherever possible, the design was modified to include the placement of all noise-producing machinery on a false deck with spring suspension for silent running. The two boats entered service with the Dutch navy in 1972 and were decommissioned in 1994-95. A buyer is still sought for the boats.

   At the same time the need began to arise to start the design of a new class to replace the boats of the elderly Dolfijn and Potvis classes. The new design evolved as the Walrus class, which was based on the basic hull form of the Zwaardvis with similar dimensions and silhouette but with more automation allowing a significant reduction in the number of crew needed, more modern electronics, X-layout control surfaces and fabrication in the French MAREI high-tensile steel allowing a 50 percent increase in the maximum diving depth.

   The first unit, the Walrus, was laid down in 1979 in Rotterdam (where all the boats were built) for commissioning in 1986 and the Zeeleeuw a year later for service entry in 1987. A further two, the Dolfijn and Bruinvis, were laid down in 1986 and 1988 for commissioning in 1993 and 1994.

   In 1987-88 Taiwan received two Improved Zwaardvis or Hai Lung-class units Hai Lung and Hai Hu. These are planned to carry Hsiung Feng II SSMs.

« Last Edit: November 14, 2016, 12:26:25 by Karel Doorman »
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2016, 13:36:46 »
Here's the first step in building and replacing the M-class and the Tripartite(Alkmaar-class) ships(mcm)

Vandeput and sign Dutch colleague 'letter of intent to purchase ships

24/11/16 12:15 - Updated at 12:18

Source: Belga

(Belga) Defence Steven Vandeput (N-VA) Minister and his Dutch colleague Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert signed Wednesday the Memorandum of Understanding for the joint acquisition of new frigates and mine countermeasures vessels. The intention is that following the signing of a Memorandum of Understanding and the corresponding contracts within two years.

Vandeput and sign Dutch colleague 'letter of intent to purchase ships

Vandeput and sign Dutch colleague 'letter of intent to purchase ships © BELGA

Recently it was announced that Belgium and the Netherlands to replace their M-class frigates and minesweepers. Following a conference on the Benelux cooperation in the field of Defence at the Royal Higher Institute for Defence in Brussels two ministers will next week sign a letter of intent. " Belgium and the Netherlands will each have two new frigates and minesweepers six new purchases. To replace the frigates Dutch Defence will take charge of the file itself, the mine ships the Belgian Defence. The acquisition cost of the vessels is estimated at 1 billion euros for the two frigates and one billion for the six mine ships. (Belga)
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2016, 10:42:32 »
Here's a bit more news about the forthcoming new ships.

Seems like the new MCM(replacement for the tripartite class)will be bigger and will be build first then at least 4 new frigates(ASW specialized) 4000-5000 tons,quite a bit bigger then the M-class will be build directly after the 12 MCM ships.

Belgium for sure 2 new frigates,Netherlands maybe more,depends on study.

Here's the article:

Belgium and the Netherlands Sign Letter of Intent for the Purchase of Sixteen Ships
(Source: Belga news agency; published Nov 30, 2016)
(Published in French; unofficial translation by Defense-Aerospace.com)
BRUSSELS --- Belgian and Dutch defense ministers Steven Vandeput and Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert signed a Letter of Intent (LoI) in Brussels on Wednesday evening for the joint but unprecedented acquisition of four new frigates and twelve minehunters, two programs worth about four billion euros in total.

Dutch Defense will take charge of the replacement of the frigates by multi-purpose ships displacing 4,000 to 5,000 tonnes, with a reduced crew of 80 people and specialized in anti-submarine warfare. Its Belgian counterpart will take charge of the minehunter program.

The objective is to sign a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) in 2018, as well as the corresponding contracts for the acquisition.

This joint Belgian-Dutch purchase, the most important ever, is a "logical step, but a rather unique one", commented Mrs Hennis-Plasschaert. Both ministers view the agreement as a concrete example of European defense cooperation. "Collaboration is crucial because we can do more together than separately," said Vandeput.

The ships should be delivered between 2023 and 2030, with the minehunters coming first to replace the existing tripartite (CMT, formerly jointly developed by the two countries and France) minehunters which will have to be retired from service in 2023.

Belgium currently operates eight such minehunters, which will be replaced by six new-generation vessels which will largely use remote-controlled machines to neutralize naval mines. Six vessels will suffice, thanks to this new concept, which will also make it possible to withdraw the command and logistic support building Godetia, at the end of her service life after a 50-year career, Vandeput said at a conference at the Royal Higher Institute of Defense (IRSD).

Belgium and the Netherlands also plan to jointly acquire at least four multi-purpose frigates intended to replace, over the next ten years, the frigates currently in service in the two navies (The Belgian Navy's Léopold 1 and Louise Marie, and the Dutch Navy’s last two remaining M-frigates).

Ms Hennis, however, was cautious on Wednesday about the number of ships to acquire, stressing that studies were still ongoing in the Netherlands on the size of the requirement -- unlike the situation in Belgium where the two frigates and six minehunters are included in the "2030 Strategic Vision on Defense,” which was approved at the end of June by the Belgian government.

The two ministers also announced a strengthening of cooperation between the two navies for joint operation of the Dutch Joint Support Ship, the Zr. Ms. Karel Doorman, and the training of one or two Belgian amphibious companies in the future “ranger” battalions (currently para-commandos) of the Belgian army.

The Belgian and Dutch navies are already collaborating intensively under the so-called "Admiral Benelux" (ABNL) agreement, which in 1996 created a joint binational operational headquarters in Den Helder (northwestern Netherlands).

This cooperation has been extended over the years to the field of maintenance -- the M-frigates are maintained in Den Helder and the CMT minehunters in Belgium’s port of Zeebrugge -- and training, for example naval cooks are trained in Belgium.

-ends-
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2017, 11:34:38 »
Dutch Submarines:First of the new class to be in the water by 2025.

Maybe of interest for Canada too.

There's a bit more known now:

- expeditionary-check
-newly designed-check
-air-independent propulsion (AIP) -check
-Industrial Partnership Saab/Damen-check

http://saab.com/region/netherlands/dutch-submarines/
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 11:42:53 by Karel Doorman »
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Offline Colin P

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2017, 11:09:10 »
The A26 is a smaller sub good for the European waters and coastal, Saab offers the Type 612, basically a upsized A26 according to what I read, but has never built one. If the Aussie-French deal goes ahead, I think they will still be a better fit for us.

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2017, 12:50:21 »
The A26 is a smaller sub good for the European waters and coastal, Saab offers the Type 612, basically a upsized A26 according to what I read, but has never built one. If the Aussie-French deal goes ahead, I think they will still be a better fit for us.

Could be Colin,i just wrote down what is known(a bit)
-Another option could be an "upgraded Walrus hull(modernized),since these hullforms are basically very good,and a sort of A-26 command tower.It will be a bit bigger that's sure.

https://www.twente.com/twenty-twente/de-nieuwe-radar-van-thales-is-een-game-changer/

This is an article about the upgraded Smart-L EWC now on board ZR.MS Evertsen is now able to detect missiles ans satellites from about 2000 kms,it's the longest"looking"/"seeing"radar system in the world,hurrah for the Dutchies. [:p   (in dutch)
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2017, 12:52:33 »
yes they are not releasing a lot of details

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2017, 06:34:35 »
Seems we were in Halifax,Nova Scotia [:)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCjDIGuXUAACMK0.jpg


[Photo source:Craig Baines @ www.twitter.com/MapleSeaLeaf ]
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 06:46:20 by Karel Doorman »
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2017, 08:52:28 »
How much LOX do the Gotlands (or equivalent) carry and how long would that last (generally, not anti-OPSEC detail)?

Regards
G2G

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2017, 11:03:46 »
Gotlands use Stirling engines, I believe.

The Germans are using Fuel Cells.  Both need oxygen right enough.  But the time endurance is measured in weeks.  I don't know about the distance endurance.  I am guessing that distance from one edge of the ice pack to the other might be a consideration.

Kind of an interesting article here.

http://www.hisutton.com/World%20survey%20of%20AIP%20submarines.html

On the subject of Canadian Opportunities Missed......

We have a company that is a world leader in submersible technology

http://www.ise.bc.ca/auv.html

We have a company building fuel cell vehicles

http://ballard.com/about-ballard/ballard-in-canada



"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2017, 12:31:42 »
How much LOX do the Gotlands (or equivalent) carry and how long would that last (generally, not anti-OPSEC detail)?

Regards
G2G

I hope you did see that it was a Walrus-class(Dutch Navy) [:p

About the Swedish Gotlands,i don't know,but will try to find something(if possible).

gr,walter
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2017, 01:04:56 »
I hope you did see that it was a Walrus-class(Dutch Navy) [:p

About the Swedish Gotlands,i don't know,but will try to find something(if possible).

gr,walter

What AIP system does the Walrus have?

Regards
G2G

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2017, 04:42:52 »
What AIP system does the Walrus have?

Regards
G2G

To be simple,none. ;D 

Propulsion is Diesel/electric.(There are three SEMPT-Pielstick 12-cylinder, four-stroke diesel engines. The lone main motor is an electric motor is manufactured by Holec.)

Range:    18,500 km (10,000 nmi) at 9 kn (17 km/h) or +/-60 days surfaced.

Speed: Surfaced:13 knots  Submerged: 21 knots

The Newly designed(in process)probably will have a AIP system,not definitely known yet.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 05:02:23 by Karel Doorman »
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2017, 14:14:56 »
I suppose that's why I specified the Gotlands, when posing the LOX question about AIP.  The A-26 specifically referred to AIP technology, so I was interested in what would likely go onto the new Dutch boats, not the old Walruses.  ;)

Tot straks,
G2G

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2017, 07:22:59 »
I suppose that's why I specified the Gotlands, when posing the LOX question about AIP.  The A-26 specifically referred to AIP technology, so I was interested in what would likely go onto the new Dutch boats, not the old Walruses.  ;)

Tot straks,
G2G

Well not a lot is known about the new ones,it could be a new design,an evolution on the Walrus(perhaps with a A-26 tower),or a A-26NL.

What is known is that they probably will have AIP and will be expeditionary,that's about it.

When there's more news i'll share it.

Hopelijk zo snel mogelijk(as soon as possible i hope)

gr,Walter
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2017, 15:51:20 »
Well there's a push(and hope )from SAAB towards Polen and The Netherlands regarding the subs wich will replace the Walrus-class.  :nod:


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-10/saab-targets-submarine-sales-jump-as-russia-tensions-lift-demand
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2017, 16:03:34 »
So there's a bit more news from ...............................The Netherlands  [:)

http://nos.nl/artikel/2181466-hennis-kan-verder-met-zoeken-naar-nieuwe-onderzeeboten.html

The link is in Dutch,but it's about the debate for the replacement for the Walrus-class subs.

In short Parliament agreed to replace the subs,only thing is that the reserved budget for replacement is too little,about 2.5 B,all know that about 3.5-4B is needed to replace the 4 Walrusses for 4 new ones. ;)
The prefered combo to bult these is Damen/Saab,but others will be asked too for information(DCNS,Thyssen,Navantia)

The specs or requirements for the new subs are:these are general.


De specificaties of eisen voor de nieuwe onderzeeboten                                                              -Specs/requirements
* Moeilijk op te sporen                                                                                                          -VeryHard/near impossible to detect 
* Goed bewapend voor echte oorlogsacties                                                                               -Armed for "real"war situations
* Wereldwijd verzamelen, analyseren en delen van inlichtingen                                                      -Globally deployable ,gathering,analyzing and sharing information                                                   
* Op langdurige geheime missie kunnen in vijandelijk gebied                                                          -Prolonged employability for secret missions in hostile terretory
* Speciale operaties met special forces langs een vijandelijke kust                                                 -Spec OPS,delivering/retrieving Special Forces along hostile coasts
* Faciliteiten voor vrouwelijke militairen, Hennis noemt dat 'genderneutrale' onderzeeboten                 -Gender Neutral(or fit for women aswell)


So this was the first step,hopefully Gathering momntum now.

gr,Walter
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Offline Colin P

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2017, 16:40:30 »
This 1900 tons submerged correct?

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2017, 17:40:32 »
This 1900 tons submerged correct?

Colin,what do you mean 1900 tons submerged,are you talking about the A-26?yes they are about that weight.

For the new cass of Dutch subs,i think it will be around 3000 tons submerged.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 06:38:07 by Karel Doorman »
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2017, 10:12:48 »
Well here's a sketch off the new vMFF(replacement M-class),first an ASW ship,but can also do a bit of AAW and surface combat.










« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 10:33:18 by Karel Doorman »
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Offline Colin P

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2017, 11:13:11 »
Gotlands use Stirling engines, I believe.

The Germans are using Fuel Cells.  Both need oxygen right enough.  But the time endurance is measured in weeks.  I don't know about the distance endurance.  I am guessing that distance from one edge of the ice pack to the other might be a consideration.

Kind of an interesting article here.

http://www.hisutton.com/World%20survey%20of%20AIP%20submarines.html

On the subject of Canadian Opportunities Missed......

We have a company that is a world leader in submersible technology

http://www.ise.bc.ca/auv.html

We have a company building fuel cell vehicles

http://ballard.com/about-ballard/ballard-in-canada


we let that ship sail a long time ago, almost got to go for a ride on one, but Transport Canada forbade them offering a trip as they didn't know how to classify the vessel. https://books.google.ca/books?id=9pkrAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA5&lpg=PA5&dq=tourist+sub+built+in+canada&source=bl&ots=SmIzdrWnZu&sig=jrXswndofxekcfqVmwjQKwj-jng&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiX0JPZzJDVAhXMxYMKHVk2BUMQ6AEISDAF#v=onepage&q=tourist%20sub%20built%20in%20canada&f=false

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #46 on: July 28, 2017, 13:13:39 »
So it seems we've a Wiki page. [Xp  (Not by Damen or Government)

That means for the M-class replacements,and with what is known now,so can change(details/outfit)

Future Surface Combatants for the Royal Dutch Navy.(and Belgian Navy)

https://www.google.be/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjnud_JuqzVAhWEuBoKHfmqDMYQFghbMAk&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FFuture_Surface_Combatant_(Koninklijke_Marine)&usg=AFQjCNFma72naegaEGRJ2fV92WtGim3RYA


ps,one of the things not mentioned in the wiki article,is a hull mounted sonar,wich will be there also.(see reply#44) and the OTO Melara WS 25mm Autocannon,is not corrcet either,will be the Oto Melara Marlin WS 30mm autocannon.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 08:29:47 by Karel Doorman »
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Offline Colin P

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #47 on: July 28, 2017, 13:36:45 »
Seems decently armed, they could build more and keep 1 or 2 in hot layup or refit

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #48 on: July 28, 2017, 14:48:07 »
Seems decently armed, they could build more and keep 1 or 2 in hot layup or refit

Well to be honest ,we should build more,4 at least.
There's an option to build 4 max.for the Netherlands and 2 max for Belgium(let's hope the RNLN ,and the politicians,decide to use this option.
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #49 on: July 28, 2017, 15:07:16 »
And now something completely different,a bit of fun.  ;D

Don't know how many of you seen this clip(it was from a satiric/humoristic prgramme on Sunday("Lubbach"),it's been out a while but still want to post it here.(clip is in English)

"The Netherlands second"(a reaction offcourse on the "America First"speech by Donald Trump.)


https://www.google.be/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi1nq6u1azVAhVL2xoKHcQdCiAQFgg3MAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vpro.nl%2Fzondag-met-lubach%2Flees%2Fnieuws%2FThe-Netherlands-Second.html&usg=AFQjCNEKkDba0g51p1QFwNhYY6WGOxhS7w

or this link.

https://youtu.be/ELD2AwFN9Nc


have fun
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 15:15:23 by Karel Doorman »
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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