Author Topic: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada  (Read 21546 times)

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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #75 on: September 18, 2017, 13:48:08 »
No offense, but not the "prettiest" vessel I have seen, how is her sea keeping? Handling her with all that sail area forward must be interesting in high winds.

Well Colin tastes differ ,i quite like them and think they're one of the more prettier ships around nowadays.  [Xp

as for seakeeping well i think they're quite good,since they're designed to go globally(not an active crewmember,but i will ask),and btw not to sound to braggy,i think we know how to build ships we've been doing it for quite a while now.

https://youtu.be/O87Yl8_gQWA

And her "maiden"(test)voyage.when there was still a bit to be improved.(vibrations in the back of the ship),that was corrected immediately.

https://youtu.be/ajU-xlTv9N8

And for the fans,lol,here's one of Hr.Ms De Ruyter going full speed.

https://youtu.be/e_b_NzUAvuo

here' are the older ones in action(M-class)"Van Nes" and "Van Speyk" (last 2 in the RNLN)

https://youtu.be/G-6V55tCF3E

Hope you like.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 15:46:09 by Karel Doorman »
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #76 on: September 25, 2017, 05:46:31 »
Well finally some good news for the Dutch Defence Budget.  ;D

As it seems the new cabinet(politics)will probably put a serious amount of money towards the Budget,there's talk about a 1.5 Billion plus,the total of the Budget will go from 8.5 Billion now towards 10 billion.

All this is needed to buy,spare-parts,munitions,to better the collective employment agreement,etc,the rest of the extra money will be put to the investments neede to update certain things(weapons,,etc)

the article is in Dutch,sorry for that.


'Nieuwe coalitie trekt zo'n 1,5 miljard uit voor defensie'

https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nederland/politiek/nieuwe-coalitie-trekt-zon-15-miljard-uit-voor-defensie


So finaly after about 25 years of cuts,there's a reverse wich is much needed,as you'll know we need a lot of new ships,replacement M-class,Alkmaar-class(minehunters), the Walrus-class subs,a new Tanker,etc, and that's just the Navy. 
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 05:49:58 by Karel Doorman »
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Offline Colin P

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #77 on: September 25, 2017, 11:36:59 »
Glad the tide is slowly turning for them.

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #78 on: September 25, 2017, 15:42:19 »
So here's a personal story,history,about the landings in Sicily dating from 1943.(a one time "side step")

I know there's a history(military)box here on the forum,but since this is Dutch and to be fair my family's history i will put it here.

What you may or may not know is that i come from a "marine" family,that meaning my granddad, (story here),my dad and 2 uncles were marines in the Dutch Marine Corps,and there are still nephews who are in the Corps.

The official motto of the Dutch marines is"Qua patet orbis " wich means in dutch "Zo wijd de wereld strekt." wich rougly translates in English as "as far as the world extends" this as an aside.

Here's the story about 2 Dutch Gunboats aiding the allies at the landings in Sicily,my granddad(H.P.Leever) was part of it aboard the "Flores" and was distinguished with the bronze cross.


The Terrible Twins

During the war, many, often somewhat romanticized, newspaper articles were written about courage under fire. An especially interesting subject for reporters were the exploits of the navies in exile, and the Royal Netherlands Navy was no exception. The following article is from the newspaper "Voice of the Netherlands", dated August 7, 1943 [1]. The gunboats, or better sloops, in question are the Flores and Soemba, which became known in the Royal Navy as the "Terrible Twins".

A special correspondent in the Mediterranean emphases the part which ships of the Dutch Navy are playing in the operations off Sicily.

The First official announcement of their presence was contained in General Eisenhower's communiqué of July 10th. Then came the story of the Dutch gunboat, which silenced shore batteries during the landings. As the Allies disembarked in a small bay they found that certain shore guns had managed to get the range of the beach and were causing considerable trouble. The Dutch gunboat closed in to less than a mile off shore and put the batteries out of action with a few well-placed broadsides.

The short official information is amplified by the special correspondent who cables: "Squat, camouflaged fighting ships of the Royal Netherlands Navy are playing a considerable part in the operations off Sicily. Two gunboats in particular have been bombarding enemy gun positions and troop concentrations on the eastern beaches, non-stop day and night, since the start of the invasion.

"Like terriers chasing rats, they refuse to leave them alone. They pour in shells so fiercely and with such grim determination that it is no exaggeration to say that they steam up and down the coast leaving a long snaking trail of empty, cordite-blackened shell cases floating astern. They show complete disregard for personal danger and never miss an opportunity to bombard at close range."

The two gunboats' exploits made one British gunnery officer say: "It is fantastic how these little ships sail in to attack with the Netherlands Ensign flying cockily at the masthead. Their gunnery officer, dressed in khaki, unconcernedly stands on the bridge, calmly surveying the coastline.

"In the early stages of the campaign the Dutch gunboats took on eight strong Axis batteries on the top of a hill. The boats dashed in, and in an incredibly short while secured direct hits on three of the shore batteries. They killed the gun crews, and when our forward troops reached the position they found the five other batteries abandoned." At one stage of the land battle for the Catania plain the Germans, harassed and confused by the Navy' s persistent sea bombardment, brought up an enormous gun and started a terrific barrage, throwing up gigantic columns of water. The Dutch gunboats were completely outranged, but they overcame that by rushing in, firing salvos all the time, and then twisting and turning out again, only to repeat the manoeuvre.

Another British officer said: "These Dutchmen have the right fighting spirit. Nothing will stop them, and they won't cease firing. The only rest they had during the nights of unceasing bombardments was when they ran out of ammunition, and then they returned, reshelled and refuelled, and were off again. They will take on anything. Last Friday, when we knew them to be some distance away, they came rushing in at the sound of firing and went full speed ahead into the fray. Their shells roared overhead, straddling us. We could not make out where the firing came from until someone said 'It 's those damned Dutchmen again; you can't keep them out of anything!' And he was right.

[1]: The "Voice of the Netherlands" was first published in August 1941, and last in September 1946.

gr,walter.

My dad fought as did my uncles in Indonesia and i myself(not marine material, ;D)served in the Dutch Airforce as a stinger-shooter protecting the Patriot batteries(my squadron 327)during the Gulf war(1990-91),or as it's known "Desert Storm".

This as an aside,just wanted you'll to know where i come from so to speak.My "love",if i may call it that,lies with the Navy. ;D

Not only during over lord also during the landings in italy where the flores and soemba gained the name terrible twins .

there is a small film of the flores actualy firing on D-Day:(reconstruction)

https://youtu.be/BzZ1vRa_JtE
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 17:41:48 by Karel Doorman »
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Online MarkOttawa

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #79 on: September 25, 2017, 16:13:13 »
Karel Doorman: Here's a photo and article--the vessels had remarkably long service (launched 1926):

Quote

http://www.navypedia.org/ships/netherlands/nl_of_flores.htm

Also :

Quote
DUTCH GUNBOATS BACK FROM THE MEDITERRANEAN. 16 MARCH 1944, PORTSMOUTH. ADMIRAL J TH FURNSTER AND REAR ADMIRAL J W TERMIJTELEN, OF THE ROYAL NETHERLANDS NAVY INSPECTED THE GUNBOATS HNMS FLORES AND SOEMBA ON THEIR RETURN FROM THE MEDITERRANEAN.

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205154585

Plus see here for an account of Sicily in a book:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=XDqBUqnrFLYC&pg=PA156&lpg=PA156&dq=netherlands+gunboats+Flores+and+Soemba&source=bl&ots=yZ1LsPla6r&sig=YgY19l0lqKvcu8HfkXncmaqY_1Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjBnfG-kMHWAhVXzWMKHXIdATUQ6AEIbjAP#v=onepage&q=netherlands%20gunboats%20Flores%20and%20Soemba&f=false

Mark
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Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #80 on: September 25, 2017, 17:22:23 »
Thanks,Mark for the read,i've seen  the pictures  ;)

gr,walter.l. leever.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 17:56:38 by Karel Doorman »
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #81 on: September 27, 2017, 13:26:48 »
Again a bit of (former)Dutch history:

Last gun cruiser in the world decommisioned.

Peruvian Navy decommissions ‘Almirante Grau’, picks frigate ‘Montero’ as new flagship

The Peruvian Navy decommissioned its long-time flagship B.A.P. Almirante Grau after 45 years of service during a ceremony on September 26.

B.A.P. Almirante Grau was replaced as fleet flagship by B.A.P. Montero, a Carvajal-class frigate built by Servicio Industrial de la Marina (SIMA) and commissioned into the navy in 1984.

On the occasion, B.A.P. Montero was renamed to B.A.P. Almirante Grau as flagships of the Peruvian Navy bear the name of famous Peruvian Admiral Miguel Grau Seminario.

During the ceremony, the Peruvian Navy flag was lowered for the last time from the previous B.A.P. Almirante Grau, a former Dutch Navy De Zeven Provinciën-class cruiser bought by Peru in 1973. Before starting service in the Peruvian Navy, B.A.P. Almirante Grau was known as HNLMS De Ruyter (C801) and was commissioned into the Dutch Navy in 1953.

The former B.A.P. Almirante Grau was also the world’s last gun cruiser in active service.


http://www.debakstafel.nl/uploads/1/4/1/3/14135904/4242714_1_orig.jpg

http://www.debakstafel.nl/uploads/1/4/1/3/14135904/467882_1_orig.jpg
« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 14:16:14 by Karel Doorman »
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Offline jollyjacktar

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #82 on: September 27, 2017, 15:16:04 »
A good and proper looking warship.
I'm just like the CAF, I seem to have retention issues.

Online Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #83 on: September 27, 2017, 15:22:35 »
A good and proper looking warship.

That would have lasted a whole of five minutes in a modern shooting war, like the ARA General Belgrano, of the Argentine Navy.

We disposed of our own HMCS QUEBEC and HMCS ONTARIO in 1956 and 1958 respectively because they were obsolete even then as far as modern warfare was concerned.

Offline MilEME09

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #84 on: September 27, 2017, 15:34:18 »
That would have lasted a whole of five minutes in a modern shooting war, like the ARA General Belgrano, of the Argentine Navy.

We disposed of our own HMCS QUEBEC and HMCS ONTARIO in 1956 and 1958 respectively because they were obsolete even then as far as modern warfare was concerned.

The concept of a large warship meant to engage other large ships is pretty well dead, dido for the battleship and having the need for shore bombardment. Mind you with new technologies like railguns in the process of being viable for warships, a nuclear power assault ship with a railgun would probably provide enough cover for landing forces if there ever was a need for it.
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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #85 on: September 27, 2017, 15:35:14 »
That would have lasted a whole of five minutes in a modern shooting war, like the ARA General Belgrano, of the Argentine Navy.

We disposed of our own HMCS QUEBEC and HMCS ONTARIO in 1956 and 1958 respectively because they were obsolete even then as far as modern warfare was concerned.

True,but still the end of an era.(and it looks like a "real" warship with all the guns.  [:p  ),but still outdated now,ship was 65 years old,so truly a "grand"old lady.There are plans to keep her as a "museum"ship.(Chili)

There's also interest from her 1st owner to do so.(we)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 15:38:16 by Karel Doorman »
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Offline jollyjacktar

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #86 on: September 27, 2017, 16:20:27 »
That would have lasted a whole of five minutes in a modern shooting war, like the ARA General Belgrano, of the Argentine Navy.

We disposed of our own HMCS QUEBEC and HMCS ONTARIO in 1956 and 1958 respectively because they were obsolete even then as far as modern warfare was concerned.

But of course.  Much like a Spitfire or similar mechanical device of the era.  Doesn't mean they're not beautiful in appearance.  I still remember being taken aboard one of the steamers in Esquimalt when l was 12 or so for a tour by my cousin's husband who was XO.  I was most disappointed at the lack of guns in a modern ship.  Missiles just aren't as sexy to my eyes to this day.  As much as l love the appearance of a classic car l wouldn't want one as l know how well the meat inside fares in a serious collision.  For that matter, I wouldn't be keen to get into serious naval engagements today even in a CPF that post HCM FELEX as l know what one missile or torpedo would do to us if it got through.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 16:36:01 by jollyjacktar »
I'm just like the CAF, I seem to have retention issues.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #87 on: October 02, 2017, 10:15:29 »
That would have lasted a whole of five minutes in a modern shooting war, like the ARA General Belgrano, of the Argentine Navy.

We disposed of our own HMCS QUEBEC and HMCS ONTARIO in 1956 and 1958 respectively because they were obsolete even then as far as modern warfare was concerned.

Sunk by a torpedo almost as old as it was as I recall :)

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #88 on: October 08, 2017, 11:59:36 »
As stated by me earlier,Thales Netherlands is a world leader in the field of radar development.

Unrivaled Performance by Thales SMART-L Multi Mission Radar during Formidable Shield 2017


https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/october-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5629-unrivaled-performance-by-thales-smart-l-multi-mission-radar-during-formidable-shield-2017.html
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 12:08:23 by Karel Doorman »
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Online AlexanderM

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #89 on: October 08, 2017, 14:22:10 »
As stated by me earlier,Thales Netherlands is a world leader in the field of radar development.

Unrivaled Performance by Thales SMART-L Multi Mission Radar during Formidable Shield 2017


https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/october-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5629-unrivaled-performance-by-thales-smart-l-multi-mission-radar-during-formidable-shield-2017.html
Not only do I hope that at least our destroyers are equipped with this system but I also wonder if this technology could be used in upgrading the NORAD system. A few of those spread across northern Canada, and one on the West Coast, might not be a bad idea.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 13:07:57 by AlexanderM »

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #90 on: October 09, 2017, 04:17:31 »
Maritime RNLN Van Hengel-Spengler Award 2017 is a maritime/naval price for the best innovation into operational systems.

Nice little upgrades for the submarines,the benefit of having a very dedicated sub community/crew.

https://youtu.be/R5am9aSg3z0

https://youtu.be/6_OkL2uZAwc?list=PLR6PLK_s9CGTNgTfyTP4mvLEfoPsra7eg

and here's another one,will save up to 4% in fuell costs for the new frigates.

https://youtu.be/NkQii8sO6r8?list=PLR6PLK_s9CGTNgTfyTP4mvLEfoPsra7eg
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 04:24:03 by Karel Doorman »
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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