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Offline George Wallace

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Trudeau government attacking pensions
« on: November 27, 2016, 10:43:27 »
With all the reversals of the previous Government's work, this seems to be flying way under the radar:

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Trudeau government attacking pensions
Nov 23, 2016

New legislation from the Trudeau Liberal government is threatening the pensions of Canadian workers. Bill C-27 is an attack on good defined benefit pensions that could allow employers to break their pension promises to thousands of workers and retirees across the country.

“CUPE is strongly opposed to Bill C-27, and we are urging the federal government to stop this short-sighted and ill-conceived attack on the retirement security of Canadian workers,” said Mark Hancock, national president of CUPE.

Bill C-27 will allow federally-regulated employers to retroactively change a defined benefit pension promise into insecure “target benefits” by pressuring workers and retirees into surrendering benefit promises they have already earned.

“During the last election, Justin Trudeau clearly promised to protect good, fair defined benefit pensions from being retroactively changed to target benefit plans. Bill C-27 breaks that promise,” said Hancock. “Prime Minister Trudeau must immediately withdraw this extremely irresponsible and mean-spirited legislation.”

Converting defined benefit pensions to a target benefit model shifts virtually all risk onto workers and retirees. Bill C-27 could essentially allow employers to walk away from pension commitments to their workers, and leave thousands of Canadians abandoned in retirement.

While Bill C-27 only applies to federally regulated employers, CUPE warns that if it is passed into law it will set a dangerous precedent for other jurisdictions, and put more pressure on defined benefit pension plans.

Read CUPE’s backgrounder on Bill C-27

Visit the Canadian Labour Congress website for more information on Bill C-27


Of course this is a CUPE publication and found on this LINK.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 10:53:19 by George Wallace »
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Trudeau government attacking pensions
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2016, 11:00:18 »
I just read c27 on the Parliament of Canada website. CUPE's language seems hyperbolic (surprise, surprise).

Overall, c27 seems to aim to modernize how pension plans are both conceived and administered. It is true that one clause of the proposed bill states that an employer can propose to employees that they exchange a defined benefits plan for a defined contribution plan, but they have to obtain authorization in writing and there does not appear to be a "stick" if the employees don't agree (unless I missed it) except that contributions may go up well in excess of what employees are willing to pay to keep the plan solvent, if they do not agree.

I am no lawyer and I am willing to be corrected, but this looks to share the risk on pensions more equitably between employees and employers.

Offline George Wallace

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DISCLAIMER: The opinions and arguments of George Wallace posted on this Site are solely those of George Wallace and not the opinion of Army.ca and are posted for information purposes only.
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Offline ballz

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Re: Trudeau government attacking pensions
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2016, 17:00:35 »
I just read c27 on the Parliament of Canada website. CUPE's language seems hyperbolic (surprise, surprise).

Overall, c27 seems to aim to modernize how pension plans are both conceived and administered. It is true that one clause of the proposed bill states that an employer can propose to employees that they exchange a defined benefits plan for a defined contribution plan, but they have to obtain authorization in writing and there does not appear to be a "stick" if the employees don't agree (unless I missed it) except that contributions may go up well in excess of what employees are willing to pay to keep the plan solvent, if they do not agree.

I am no lawyer and I am willing to be corrected, but this looks to share the risk on pensions more equitably between employees and employers.

I'm not well-read into this stuff, but I view this as a good thing. We have a crisis in the making with the unfunded liabilities we have from defined benefit plans that we simply cannot honour in the long-run without taking on massive debt. The government needs to either start collecting more money, or make a deal with people to switch them over to a defined contribution plan in exchange for something.

My general rule of thumb... if CUPE is unhappy, the government is probably doing the right thing.
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Trudeau government attacking pensions
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2016, 17:06:25 »
Funny, Ballz, that is my general rule, too.

Offline milnews.ca

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Re: Trudeau government attacking pensions
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2016, 18:20:41 »
My general rule of thumb... if CUPE is unhappy, the government is probably doing the right thing.
Funny, Ballz, that is my general rule, too.

May be a good or bad thing, and it may be coming from a union, but nothing beats the sheer pleasure of posting a "Trudeau government attacking <anything>" headline, though, right?  ;)
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Offline ballz

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Re: Trudeau government attacking pensions
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2016, 19:16:26 »
"Trudeau Attacking CUPE"

Now there's a fight that I wouldn't know which side to cheer for.... I'd just have to hope for a slugfest :pop:
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Trudeau government attacking pensions
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2016, 20:16:51 »
"Trudeau Attacking CUPE"

Now there's a fight that I wouldn't know which side to cheer for.... I'd just have to hope for a slugfest :pop:
If both lost Canada would be better off...

Offline recceguy

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Re: Trudeau government attacking pensions
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2016, 21:28:36 »
I'm not well-read into this stuff, but I view this as a good thing. We have a crisis in the making with the unfunded liabilities we have from defined benefit plans that we simply cannot honour in the long-run without taking on massive debt. The government needs to either start collecting more money, or make a deal with people to switch them over to a defined contribution plan in exchange for something.

My general rule of thumb... if CUPE is unhappy, the government is probably doing the right thing.

The liebrals changed the VAC rules for pensions, while we were at war. Changed the rules during the game.

I paid into pensions for fifty years. I paid, expecting a certain return for keeping my end of the bargain. Now the liebrals want to change the rules in the middle of the game again, just to suit some idiotic fancy of our child PM.

He's given away Canada and now wants to take more from us and leave us destitute and at the mercy of George Soros and his immigrant army.
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Trudeau government attacking pensions
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2016, 21:39:40 »
The liebrals changed the VAC rules for pensions, while we were at war. Changed the rules during the game.

I paid into pensions for fifty years. I paid, expecting a certain return for keeping my end of the bargain. Now the liebrals want to change the rules in the middle of the game again, just to suit some idiotic fancy of our child PM.

He's given away Canada and now wants to take more from us and leave us destitute and at the mercy of George Soros and his immigrant army.

Actually, recce guy- go read the legislation.

It reads to me like the bill is trying to keep pensions solvent. So they are their when people need them.

But I am no lawyer....

Offline Tcm621

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Re: Trudeau government attacking pensions
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2016, 22:00:17 »
As long as they can't change the rules for people already in the system,  I don't care one way or the other.  I will say that defined benefits pension are what attract a lot of people to otherwise unattractive jobs. The military doesn't lay all that well (with no overtime) forces you to move to places your probably don't want to live,  makes a serious career for your spouse very difficult and people expect things out of you that are just not expected on civvy street. However,  we have that pension to look forward to. There are a lot of careers that have similar problems and they tend to be careers which are very important (military, police, coast guard, etc). I am sure that we will still get people but the number if people who stay for life will go down significantly.

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Offline mariomike

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Re: Trudeau government attacking pensions
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2016, 22:13:10 »
There are a lot of careers that have similar problems and they tend to be careers which are very important (military, police, coast guard, etc).

Police in Ontario ( with the exception of the OPP ), firefighters and paramedics are in OMERS.
It's a good plan, as far as I am concerned. Especially since the accrual rate increased from 2% to 2.33%. Now they can GTFO in 30 years with a 70% pension.
Took me 35 years on the 2% accrual rate to max-out ( 70% ).

http://www.omers.com/pdf/Supplemental_Plan_handbook.pdf


« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 22:34:34 by mariomike »
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Trudeau government attacking pensions
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2016, 23:06:00 »
As long as they can't change the rules for people already in the system,  I don't care one way or the other.  I will say that defined benefits pension are what attract a lot of people to otherwise unattractive jobs. The military doesn't lay all that well (with no overtime) forces you to move to places your probably don't want to live,  makes a serious career for your spouse very difficult and people expect things out of you that are just not expected on civvy street. However,  we have that pension to look forward to. There are a lot of careers that have similar problems and they tend to be careers which are very important (military, police, coast guard, etc). I am sure that we will still get people but the number if people who stay for life will go down significantly.

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TCM- old knows that I am no apologist for the Liberals, but I think that you actually have to read the legislation, vice the CUPE news release. From the way I read it, pensions in Canada can be either defined benefit or defined contribution (nothing new here). With the consent of the members of the plan, the pension manager can move from one type to the other. The one thing that cannot happen is the plan be allowed to run an actuarial deficit. If that happens, the plan manager must come up with a strategy to remain solvent.

That is the way I read c27, but am open to being corrected...


Offline Tcm621

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Re: Trudeau government attacking pensions
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2016, 23:50:34 »
TCM- old knows that I am no apologist for the Liberals, but I think that you actually have to read the legislation, vice the CUPE news release. From the way I read it, pensions in Canada can be either defined benefit or defined contribution (nothing new here). With the consent of the members of the plan, the pension manager can move from one type to the other. The one thing that cannot happen is the plan be allowed to run an actuarial deficit. If that happens, the plan manager must come up with a strategy to remain solvent.

That is the way I read c27, but am open to being corrected...
I was speaking generally not specifically. 

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Re: Trudeau government attacking pensions
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2016, 00:46:33 »
The Ontario govt. just changed our plan mid-stream.......no consultation, nada.
They decided last year that if you didn't retire by the end of November this year you would have to pay half the cost of your benefits until death.  Now that in itself doesn't sound too terrible until you think that I have been contributing rates for 28 years that included benefits. 
Since I have at least 4 more years to go, I can allot for it, but anyone that can't go until sometime next year just had $200 a month taken from their retirement income that they may have spent over 30 years planning for.

Like RG said, it sucks when they change a game mid-stream. 

EDIT....not that I'm saying the Feds are doing it here but watch closely folks.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 00:49:57 by Bruce Monkhouse »
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Re: Trudeau government attacking pensions
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2016, 07:28:16 »
He's given away Canada and now wants to take more from us and leave us destitute and at the mercy of George Soros and his immigrant army.
I guess even Gerry Butts needs a break from being 2i/c Evil Overlord Office ...
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Offline recceguy

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Re: Trudeau government attacking pensions
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2016, 13:50:45 »
Like Bruce says. I get my pension from OPTRUST (Ontario Government) and got screwed. Wynne will do whatever she wants. Many of my posts about this stuff is just venting.
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Trudeau government attacking pensions
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2016, 14:35:10 »
The Ontario govt. just changed our plan mid-stream.......no consultation, nada.
They decided last year that if you didn't retire by the end of November this year you would have to pay half the cost of your benefits until death.  Now that in itself doesn't sound too terrible until you think that I have been contributing rates for 28 years that included benefits. 

The Toronto govt. pays 100% on benefits premiums until age 65. Doesn't matter if you are retired, or still on the job.
After age 65, you receive a $3,000.00 per year Health Care Spending Account ( HCSA ) until age 75, and pay your own premiums.
After age 75, if still alive, you are on your own.
The plan renews automatically on your 65th birthday without the need for a medical.
The City continues to pay your Life Insurance premium.
( This is the plan for Toronto police officers, firefighters and paramedics. )

« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 14:57:27 by mariomike »
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