Author Topic: Canada's top general asked about getting equipment fitted especially for women  (Read 5969 times)

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Offline Dimsum

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This is a better fit* than the News forum.  For comedic value, watch the video for Gen Vance's answer - and "don't get him started on boots".   :nod:

*See what I did there?   :D

Quote
Canada's diminutive top soldier told a compact female cadet that he can relate to womens' complaints about oversized body armour and other kit designed for larger men.

"Listen, I hear you sister. I'm like five seven, I've been chaffing against this stuff my whole career too," he told Officer Cadet Melissa Sanfacon at the Conference of Defence Associations Institute 2017 Ottawa conference.

Sanfacon asked the question in relation to the military's efforts to get more women into the force. She said some of the equipment she uses is fitted for the size of an average soldier, which is much larger than her nearly five foot stature.

"So the fit, and I'm going to assume it's the same way for many women, is not quite functional or practical, sir," she said.

Vance said he completely agreed and immediately pointed to Lt-Gen. Paul Wynnyk, Commander of the Canadian Army, and instructed him to: "do better."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/vance-conference-question-sanfacon-1.3989588
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline Rifleman62

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Well Paul Wynnyk is an Engineer, so maybe.....
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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With the final comment on boots ... is he intimating that the problem with the Army boots is caused by the Army, not the supply (and I mean the materiel acquisition type here) system?

(and PS: I am asking because quite frankly, the Army boot problem baffles me. In my 24 years of active service in the Navy, I have never been issued with a pair of sea-boots that didn't do the job, and frankly have hardly ever heard any people complaining about them).

Offline Rifleman62

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If the Army's boots are so bad, why not purchase off the shelf from the US or are their boots sub quality also? Yes I know jobs for Canada (or for Oldgateboatdriver, jobs for Quebec  :rofl:)

Never Congratulate Yourself In Victory, Nor Blame Your Horses In Defeat - Old Cossack Expression

Offline Navy_Pete

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While they are at it, uniforms that aren't sized for a command gut would be nice, at least for DEUs. 

Offline Loachman

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If the Army's boots are so bad, why not purchase off the shelf from the US or are their boots sub quality also?

Treasury Board will not permit that.

The aftermarket boot (and other kit) markets are thriving in the US. It's highly competitive, which inspires companies (large and small) to produce innovative, high-quality, reasonably-priced items to paying customers.

In Canada, companies who have neither background nor interest in military footwear get large contracts to produce failure after failure with no penalty, and, therefore, no incentive to do better.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Perhaps Canadian Forces members (and tax payers) deserve a bit of a better answer about our boot fiasco.
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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If the Army's boots are so bad, why not purchase off the shelf from the US or are their boots sub quality also? Yes I know jobs for Canada (or for Oldgateboatdriver, jobs for Quebec  :rofl:)

Heretic!! Blasphemer!!!! What will Canadian footwear companies do?
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Offline MilEME09

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Heretic!! Blasphemer!!!! What will Canadian footwear companies do?

Stick to making crappy hiking boots and sneakers?
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Offline George Wallace

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Stick to making crappy hiking boots and sneakers?

Once upon a time, Greb made good boots.

Kind of sounds like a Fairy Tale now.
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Offline PMedMoe

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Well, she does have a valid point.  And that includes footwear too. 
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~ Lao Tzu~

Offline jollyjacktar

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And those of us with small willies.  How am I supposed to fill that gigantic pouch in the issue underwear?  Unless that is a form of Russian Maskirovka, thinking that any enemies who find our underwear on the battlefield must assume they are up against Canadian Übermensch.   :nod:
I'm just like the CAF, I seem to have retention issues.

Offline George Wallace

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And those of us with small willies.  How am I supposed to fill that gigantic pouch in the issue underwear?  Unless that is a form of Russian Maskirovka, thinking that any enemies who find our underwear on the battlefield must assume they are up against Canadian Übermensch.   :nod:

As they are "one size type fits ALL", you had better remember the Canadian Übermenschen.
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Unless so stated, they are reflective of my opinion -- and my opinion only, a right that I enjoy along with every other Canadian citizen.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Looking forward to the sponsored thesis on the 'Devil Dwarfs' and the resulting Army lessons learned primer...  ;D

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/bantam-battalions-how-britains-devil-dwarfs-helped-allies-win-world-war-one-1458322
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Offline sailorprivateer

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Hmmm... I'm 5'1" and 5'2" on a good day, so how screwed-up am I?
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Offline ballz

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Well, she does have a valid point.  And that includes footwear too.

She does, it's a sad state of affairs when even the CDS laughs off the idea that he might have enough influence/authority to fix this issue.
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Offline Ryan_T

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This is a better fit* than the News forum.  For comedic value, watch the video for Gen Vance's answer - and "don't get him started on boots".   :nod:

*See what I did there?   :D

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/vance-conference-question-sanfacon-1.3989588
I remember when i 1st got in to the CF. Non of my gear fit. They were all to small.

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Offline Good2Golf

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With the final comment on boots ... is he intimating that the problem with the Army boots is caused by the Army, not the supply (and I mean the materiel acquisition type here) system?

(and PS: I am asking because quite frankly, the Army boot problem baffles me. In my 24 years of active service in the Navy, I have never been issued with a pair of sea-boots that didn't do the job, and frankly have hardly ever heard any people complaining about them).

Principally, yes for general use clothing.  DLR essentially is responsible for Army and general purpose (CAF) boots. DAR still sets the specification for aircrew-specific footwear and DMR the same for sea-duty specific footwear.  Once procured, DSSPM (Directorate of Soldier Systems Program Management) oversees the life-cycle management of all footwear.  DSSPM is a Directorate within DGLEPM (Directorate General of Land Engineering and Program Management), which although an organization subordinate to ADM(MAT), responds to CCA (through COS(Land Strat)).  So yes, the Army's fingerprints are pretty heavily imprinted on boots, and rucksacks, and camouflage clothing, used by the general CAF population.

:2c:

Regards
G2G

Offline Tcm621

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(and PS: I am asking because quite frankly, the Army boot problem baffles me. In my 24 years of active service in the Navy, I have never been issued with a pair of sea-boots that didn't do the job, and frankly have hardly ever heard any people complaining about them).

Part of the reason is that you don't put the kind of miles on your feet in the navy as you do the army. When you are putting in the kind if miles even support staff have to put in just to do their AFT,  going the one style works for all method the army keeps trying to implement is not feasible. To top it off,  supply is handcudfed by policies that don't allow them to offer solutions. For example,  I have hyperhydrosis (aka really sweaty feet)  and by the end of the day my feet are sliding around the mk4s I tied hockey skate tight at the beginning of the day. The solution is breathable footwear. We have them in the system but I can't get issued desert boots unless I deploy or seaboots unless I'm Navy. Our ninmagen team even had issues getting cut boots to March in because their airforce and are only entitled to steel toed boots.  Then there is the dress Nazis,  who assume because I am wearing magnums,  I am less effective than if I was wearing issued boots. I miss the Gypsy military to a certain extent,  things were more flexible in those days,  even if I did have to buy my own kit

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Offline Navy_Pete

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Something of a non-sequitor, I was wearing a step counter for a while on ship and was averaging between 20-25k steps each day and doing about 40 flights of stairs.  My stride is just under a meter so you can do the math, although most of the extra weight I was carrying was the 10 yards of additional fabric built into all NCDs so that they don't fit anyone properly.

I always thought people got around the boot issues with a med chits from doctors/physio.

Funny story though, when I was in ADM(Mat) years ago I was asked to be involved in a survey for the new sea boots.  I went up to a room, saw a bunch of boots on the table, and was asked to rate them on appearance.  ???

I asked a few questions about their funcitonality and was told it didn't matter for the survey, but did weight the ones with zippers and mesh sides heavily for completely unrelated reasons.  They wanted to know what I thought about the leather grain, colour, etc, so it was kind of bizarre.  (The new boots suck for wet weather, but fantastic to have kicking around for pulling on quickly during bong bongs).

Anyway, unless the requirements types put in something about that to make the dress committee happy, that would have come from the project.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Something of a non-sequitor, I was wearing a step counter for a while on ship and was averaging between 20-25k steps each day and doing about 40 flights of stairs.  My stride is just under a meter so you can do the math, although most of the extra weight I was carrying was the 10 yards of additional fabric built into all NCDs so that they don't fit anyone properly.

I always thought people got around the boot issues with a med chits from doctors/physio.

Funny story though, when I was in ADM(Mat) years ago I was asked to be involved in a survey for the new sea boots.  I went up to a room, saw a bunch of boots on the table, and was asked to rate them on appearance.  ???

I asked a few questions about their funcitonality and was told it didn't matter for the survey, but did weight the ones with zippers and mesh sides heavily for completely unrelated reasons.  They wanted to know what I thought about the leather grain, colour, etc, so it was kind of bizarre.  (The new boots suck for wet weather, but fantastic to have kicking around for pulling on quickly during bong bongs).

Anyway, unless the requirements types put in something about that to make the dress committee happy, that would have come from the project.

That's a great example of Navy fitness, BZ! I know a few guys who are retired Navy types and they all have knee and lower limb issues from, apparently, stomping around on solid steel decks for most of their careers. I wonder how a boot can address that issue, if at all?
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Online Underway

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It seems simple really to solve the "boot issue".  And this woman who asked about kit really gave me the idea (I'm sure its not new).  Women get a allowance to buy bra's.  SOF get a clothing allowance as well.  Why doesn't the army just give everyone a boot stipend with a list of approved boots.  Like they did with Tac vests once upon a time.

Every time I work with the army in the field, 3/4's of the people have bought a pile of their own kit anyways.  Tac vests, boots, flashlights, sunglasses, underwear, kneepads, gloves, knives, multitools, camping gear, compasses, bino's, helmet padding, etc, etc...  I feel like I'm in a MEC commercial.

Offline dapaterson

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SOF do not receive a clothing allowance.  There are SOF allowances that are more or less the equivalent of SDA or LDA or AIRCRA.

There is Civilian Dress Assistance Allowance, but it's not SOF specific.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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It seems simple really to solve the "boot issue".  And this woman who asked about kit really gave me the idea (I'm sure its not new).  Women get a allowance to buy bra's.  SOF get a clothing allowance as well.  Why doesn't the army just give everyone a boot stipend with a list of approved boots.  Like they did with Tac vests once upon a time.

Every time I work with the army in the field, 3/4's of the people have bought a pile of their own kit anyways.  Tac vests, boots, flashlights, sunglasses, underwear, kneepads, gloves, knives, multitools, camping gear, compasses, bino's, helmet padding, etc, etc...  I feel like I'm in a MEC commercial.

The British Army solved that problem by paying everyone very poorly :)
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Dimsum

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It seems simple really to solve the "boot issue".  And this woman who asked about kit really gave me the idea (I'm sure its not new).  Women get a allowance to buy bra's.  SOF get a clothing allowance as well.  Why doesn't the army just give everyone a boot stipend with a list of approved boots.  Like they did with Tac vests once upon a time.

Every time I work with the army in the field, 3/4's of the people have bought a pile of their own kit anyways.  Tac vests, boots, flashlights, sunglasses, underwear, kneepads, gloves, knives, multitools, camping gear, compasses, bino's, helmet padding, etc, etc...  I feel like I'm in a MEC commercial.

Maybe all of this is a cunning plan to boost MEC's profits  >:D

More likely that the Canadian boot company companies will realize that most of us either scour surplus stores for Mk 3s or buy other brands, and may actually have to improve their quality.  I have never quite figured out why all RCAF members, including office-bound types, are required to have safety-toed boots.  If possibility of things landing on your toes is the reasoning, then issue special safety-toed boots to those trades (Loadie, Tfc Tech, Supply).
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."