Author Topic: USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17  (Read 38956 times)

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Offline Rifleman62

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USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17
« on: August 20, 2017, 20:42:25 »
Fourth incident since February.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/08/20/uss-john-s-mccain-collides-with-merchant-ship-in-pacific.html

USS John S. McCain collides with merchant ship in Pacific

The guided-missile destroyer USS John S. McCain was involved in a collision with a merchant vessel east of Singapore and the Strait of Malacca, the 7th Fleet announced in a tweet.

No immediate word on any casualties. Search and rescue efforts are under way in coordination with local authorities, the Navy said.

The warship is named after John S. McCain, Sr., and John S. McCain, Jr., both Admirals in the U.S. Navy, and the grandfather and father, respectively, of the Arizona senator.

CHINA IRKED BY NAVY DESTROYER SAILING IN SOUTH CHINA SEA

This crash came days after the top three leaders aboard the USS Fitzgerald were relieved of command. That warship was damaged badly in a collision off the coast of Japan that killed seven sailors in June. One of its compartments flooded in about 90 seconds.

The USS John S. McCain sailed by contested man-made islands in the South China Sea earlier this month, drawing China's "strong dissatisfaction." Sen. McCain recently visited the warship in Vietnam.

This marked the fourth mishap for U.S. Navy ships in the Pacific since February.

Aside from the USS McCain and USS Fitgerald incidents, the Navy crusier USS Antietam ran aground dumping over 1,000 gallons of oil in Tokyo Bay in Februray. In May, another cruiser, USS Lake Champlain, hit a South Korean fishing vessel.

Fox News' Lucas Tomlinson contributed to this report


More info from:

http://triblive.com/usworld/world/12642594-74/navy-destroyer-collides-with-a-merchant-ship-rescue-efforts-underway

The guided missile destroyer and the Liberian-flagged merchant vessel Alnic MC collided near the Strait of Malacca at 5:24 a.m. local time, the Navy's 7th Fleet reported. It was on its way to routine port visit in Singapore.

Initial reports indicated that the destroyer sustained damage to its port side at the rear.

Shipping data show that the Alnic is 600 feet long with a dead weight of 50,760 tons. The McCain is a 505-foot-long Arleigh Burke-class destroyer based at the 7th Fleet's home port in Yokosuka, Japan.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 20:50:11 by Rifleman62 »
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2017, 23:39:01 »
Don't want to take away from the tragedy of this incident but on CTV National news tonight they reported that the ship was named after Senator McCain  :brickwall: They obviously need to hire a few more fact checkers for the weekend shift.

 :cheers:
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2017, 23:57:21 »
Its Admirals McCain.The Senator is IIId to have the name.

http://www.public.navy.mil/surfor/ddg56/Pages/History.aspx#.WZpY5Te0m70

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Re: USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2017, 01:37:41 »
Port side aft... Interesting...
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2017, 05:49:56 »
Don't want to take away from the tragedy of this incident but on CTV National news tonight they reported that the ship was named after Senator McCain  :brickwall: They obviously need to hire a few more fact checkers for the weekend shift.

 :cheers:

When it comes to military terms and the Canadian media I expect errors. They don't know and they don't care.

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Re: USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2017, 08:48:16 »
Its a rare naming one ship with the names of 2 4 star Admirals Senator McCain's grandfather and father. I hate to say it but the 10 missing sailors are probably in the flooded spaces,although the hole seems big enough to make egress. Something is very wrong in Destroyer Squadron 15 or bad luck.This happened at 0624 how do you miss a tanker coming at you ? There is speculation that watch standing isnt taught like it used to be. But that goes with the military in general.I hope and pray for a better outcome with regard to the missing sailors.

http://a57.foxnews.com/www.foxnews.com/images/root_images/660/0/660%20mccain%20wrek_20170821_045141.jpg

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Re: USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2017, 09:23:28 »
Concerning damage to the McCain.They made the Changi Naval Base in early afternoon, I hope the divers can enter the flooded spaces quickly with luck there are air pockets.

http://navaltoday.com/2017/08/21/uss-america-moors-in-singapore-to-support-uss-john-s-mccain-sailors-after-collision/

Quote
Significant damage to the hull resulted in flooding to nearby compartments, including crew berthing, machinery, and communications rooms. Damage control efforts by the crew halted further flooding.


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Re: USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2017, 10:57:23 »
Port side rear ... so the McCain must have been starboard and ahead of the other ship and hence right of way.

Does anybody else think it's strange that at least two USN ships filled with sophisticated guidance systems have collided with freighters in the Pacific recently.  Could there be more to the story...
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2017, 11:16:11 »
Yes, and both of the same class.

Conspiracy theory: China is paying a bounty. ;D

USMC air  has a recent operational pause, now:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/20/asia/us-navy-destroyer-collision-singapore/index.html

Admiral to order operational pause in Navy after warship, merchant ship collide
- Brad Lendon, CNN - Updated 11:00 AM ET, Mon August 21, 2017

Chief of Naval Operations Adm. John Richardson is expected to order a one-day pause in operations "to ensure we are taking all appropriate immediate measures to enhance the Navy's safe and effective operation around the world," according to a US Defense official and an advanced copy of Richardson's statement obtained by CNN.
The stand-down will take place over the next couple of weeks, at the discretion of individual commands, the defense official said.
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2017, 11:30:39 »
My favorite website is all over this.

http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.ca/2017/08/and-now-mccain.html#disqus_thread

They are all in agreement that budget cuts to Jr SWO training is now coming home to roost in dead sailors and damaged ships.
And a warning shot to all navies about the importance of OOW training and mentoring.

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Re: USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2017, 13:09:49 »
Yes, and both of the same class.

Conspiracy theory: China is paying a bounty. ;D

USMC air  has a recent operational pause, now:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/20/asia/us-navy-destroyer-collision-singapore/index.html

Admiral to order operational pause in Navy after warship, merchant ship collide
- Brad Lendon, CNN - Updated 11:00 AM ET, Mon August 21, 2017

Chief of Naval Operations Adm. John Richardson is expected to order a one-day pause in operations "to ensure we are taking all appropriate immediate measures to enhance the Navy's safe and effective operation around the world," according to a US Defense official and an advanced copy of Richardson's statement obtained by CNN.
The stand-down will take place over the next couple of weeks, at the discretion of individual commands, the defense official said.

.....According to RAdm W S Chalmers (Beatty shipmate and biographer):

Beatty came into the LION's charthouse. Tired and depressed, he sat down on the settee, and settling himself in a corner he closed his eyes. Unable to hide his disappointment at the result of the battle, he repeated in a weary voice, "There is something wrong with our ships", then opening his eyes and looking at the writer, he added, "And something wrong with our system." Having thus unburdened himself he fell asleep.

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Re: USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2017, 13:22:58 »
One of the posters at Lightfighter Skandar, has studied the data and determined that Alnic violated the traffic scheme by cutting across and thus created a collision. Considering where the impact was rear port side it seems to make sense.

Offline Mike5

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Re: USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2017, 13:30:15 »
Is it possible that the USN is under some heightened readiness state due to concerns with North Korea and China in in the South China Sea -- which is leading to more collisions?
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2017, 14:17:22 »
b]This happened at 0624 how do you miss a tanker coming at you ?[/b]

If the USN uses the same watch system as Commonwealth navies (ie. Morning watch is 0400-0800) I don't think it's out of the question. 

It's 2 hours into a probably boring (or, in the Straits of Malacca, busy) watch.  Depending on when the CO wants to be called for the Morning Report (and when sunrise is locally), the 0600 timeframe and on gets pretty busy for the OOW and Watch on Deck.  It's definitely one of the times that, if the "swiss cheese lines up" in "Flight Safety"-speak, things that could go wrong would go wrong.
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2017, 14:28:42 »
Forgive me for my ignorance on all things sailing but...wouldn't there always be SA on all ships/aircraft etc in a bubble around you?  Having never sailed before except as a ferry passenger, I am trying to understand how a collision like this happens in a shipping lane;  I am assuming that there are lanes, speeds etc that are (should be) adhered to and that warships maintain SA on all vessels around them, particularly ones that are in close.

Hoping the find the 10 missing sailors alive.   :salute:
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2017, 14:42:57 »
Forgive me for my ignorance on all things sailing but...wouldn't there always be SA on all ships/aircraft etc in a bubble around you?  Having never sailed before except as a ferry passenger, I am trying to understand how a collision like this happens in a shipping lane;  I am assuming that there are lanes, speeds etc that are (should be) adhered to and that warships maintain SA on all vessels around them, particularly ones that are in close.

Hoping the find the 10 missing sailors alive.   :salute:

Lanes, yes.  Speeds...maybe.  From my former life (and happy to be corrected), Vessel Traffic Management at sea is different than ATC, where ATC has a much bigger hand in direction.  VTS is really just a big advisory role, and it's really up to the ships to deal with things. 

That being said, Rules of the Road at sea is hammered into watchkeepers so they know what to do based on Rule XYZ, but the HPMA/CRM "Swiss Cheese" model is just as applicable at sea as in the air - really more so because there are so many more people involved and less guidance from an external agency like ATC.
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

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Re: USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2017, 14:53:21 »
My favorite website is all over this.

http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.ca/2017/08/and-now-mccain.html#disqus_thread

They are all in agreement that budget cuts to Jr SWO training is now coming home to roost in dead sailors and damaged ships.
And a warning shot to all navies about the importance of OOW training and mentoring.

I peek into that site every so often and am really impressed, even in its comments section.
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

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Re: USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2017, 15:00:40 »
Lanes, yes.  Speeds...maybe.  From my former life (and happy to be corrected), Vessel Traffic Management at sea is different than ATC, where ATC has a much bigger hand in direction.  VTS is really just a big advisory role, and it's really up to the ships to deal with things. 

That being said, Rules of the Road at sea is hammered into watchkeepers so they know what to do based on Rule XYZ, but the HPMA/CRM "Swiss Cheese" model is just as applicable at sea as in the air - really more so because there are so many more people involved and less guidance from an external agency like ATC.

Thanks...helps to explain it when you can understand the...*perspective* I am coming from, thinking in my mind like you're in controlled airspace with rules on height, speed and someone telling you where to go, at what speed/alt etc.

I was just thinking about "there is a vessel at my 7 - 8 o'clock doing X crse and Y speed...he might hit me" SA stuff and wondering how it might happen, given the reduced speeds (compared to aircraft).

Tks!

* small sidenote...I've seen more than a few articles now that say USS John S. McCain collides with tanker .  Based on the information that USN vessel was hit port aft, isn't it more likely accurate for the news articles to say "Tanker collides with USS John S. McCain" ?
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2017, 15:10:20 »
Thanks...helps to explain it when you can understand the...*perspective* I am coming from, thinking in my mind like you're in controlled airspace with rules on height, speed and someone telling you where to go, at what speed/alt etc.

I was just thinking about "there is a vessel at my 7 - 8 o'clock doing X crse and Y speed...he might hit me" SA stuff and wondering how it might happen, given the reduced speeds (compared to aircraft).

Tks!

* small sidenote...I've seen more than a few articles now that say USS John S. McCain collides with tanker .  Based on the information that USN vessel was hit port aft, isn't it more likely accurate for the news articles to say "Tanker collides with USS John S. McCain" ?

I'm not sure how the USN does this, so I'm just going by my (limited) experience on our ships.  If it was just the Officer of the Deck (Watch) and s/he noticed something wrong that was outside the arcs of what the CO had written down that the OOW can do on their own, s/he has to report a contact report to the CO, which could be about 30 seconds long *if* all the info was readily available - if not, it can be minutes long.  Then, the CO says "do xyz" and the OOW tells the Helmsman/Throttleman/whoever to do so.  Say that takes a few minutes, but the CO usually says "don't call unless another ship CPA is xyz distance".

This is if the OOW noticed it first.  If it was the Lookout, for example, s/he would have a contact report much like the AESOP radar one to the OOW, which starts the chain.  Same if Radar notices it first, then it'd be a call up to the bridge to the OOW, etc.  Needless to say, it takes a little while to get something done compared to an aircraft unless it was in an emergency, then it's "beg for forgiveness later". 

I may have said this before, but the report on how it went down on the DDG's bridge will be interesting if nothing else.
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2017, 15:12:16 »
Forgive me for my ignorance on all things sailing but...wouldn't there always be SA on all ships/aircraft etc in a bubble around you?  Having never sailed before except as a ferry passenger, I am trying to understand how a collision like this happens in a shipping lane;  I am assuming that there are lanes, speeds etc that are (should be) adhered to and that warships maintain SA on all vessels around them, particularly ones that are in close.

Hoping the find the 10 missing sailors alive.   :salute:

The Straits of Malacca are "special". I have been through there 3 times and it is eye watering. Imagine an 8 lane super highway, except with no lines and filled with everything from 100,000 tonne super tankers down to 500 tonne coastal freighters. Ships are doing anywhere from 10-30 kts. It would not be unusual to have 100 plus contacts within 10NM of your ship. Your ship is completely surrounded. If you have an engineering casualty, you will be extremely lucky to get out of it without being hit. As aircrew, I was impressed by the ability of our bridge and ops teams to manage it. I am not sure we still have those skills today in our Navy- and we are light years ahead of the USN at training ship drivers.

Add darkness or bad weather and it would be even scarier.

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Re: USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2017, 15:15:57 »
I'm not sure how the USN does this, so I'm just going by my (limited) experience on our ships.  If it was just the Officer of the Deck (Watch) and s/he noticed something wrong that was outside the arcs of what the CO had written down that the OOW can do on their own, s/he has to report a contact report to the CO, which could be about 30 seconds long *if* all the info was readily available - if not, it can be minutes long.  Then, the CO says "do xyz" and the OOW tells the Helmsman/Throttleman/whoever to do so.  Say that takes a few minutes, but the CO usually says "don't call unless another ship CPA is xyz distance".

This is if the OOW noticed it first.  If it was the Lookout, for example, s/he would have a contact report much like the AESOP radar one to the OOW, which starts the chain.  Same if Radar notices it first, then it'd be a call up to the bridge to the OOW, etc.  Needless to say, it takes a little while to get something done compared to an aircraft unless it was in an emergency, then it's "beg for forgiveness later". 

I may have said this before, but the report on how it went down on the DDG's bridge will be interesting if nothing else.

Copy that, tks!
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2017, 15:18:20 »
The Straits of Malacca are "special". I have been through there 3 times and it is eye watering. Imagine an 8 lane super highway, except with no lines and filled with everything from 100,000 tonne super tankers down to 500 tonne coastal freighters. Ships are doing anywhere from 10-30 kts. It would not be unusual to have 100 plus contacts within 10NM of your ship. Your ship is completely surrounded. If you have an engineering casualty, you will be extremely lucky to get out of it without being hit. As aircrew, I was impressed by the ability of our bridge and ops teams to manage it. I am not sure we still have those skills today in our Navy- and we are light years ahead of the USN at training ship drivers.

Add darkness or bad weather and it would be even scarier.

Roger that...I don't think I've ever seen anything that congested on sensors or with my eyes.   100+ tracks...crazy.
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Re: USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2017, 15:19:49 »
As an addendum to my previous comment, I have seen some discussion about the over-reliance on auto-track systems. That stuff is fine (normally), but the operator has to really understand the how the software works and has to know when to go raw radar from skin paints- and track the old fashioned way (I'm not even sure that is still taught...).

You can get yourself in a real jackpot in a real hurry using an auto tracker in a high density, low Doppler environment...

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Re: USS John S. McCain Collision 20 Aug 17
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2017, 15:43:11 »
That part, I can relate to completely.  Being a Blk II guy, then CTd to Blk III, and now seeing our new Blk III only junior operators, there is a difference in abilities and more *assuming* the SW is and will work properly.  And, with the multitude of setting now on something like just RADAR, it is much easier for them to make a single mistake that has the potential for huge consequences.
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