Author Topic: Naval Dress Questions  (Read 4844 times)

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Offline Nuggs

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Naval Dress Questions
« on: August 31, 2017, 18:21:49 »
Appologies, I've been up in the NCR for a bit now at a primarily Army unit and am a little out of touch with dress changes.

Couple of questions:

1. Boarding party crests. Are they not still supposed to be removed when no longer part of a team?

2. Belts and NCDs. For years when I was at sea everyone either wore a CF issue belt or a black leather belt. Now apparently there is a black web belt with black buckle. Apparently it's not available via my local supply. Is this the only approved belt now? Or are the brass on brass, old leather belts, and the belts with unit / branch insignia still allowed.

References appreciated.

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Offline mariomike

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2017, 18:27:26 »
References appreciated.

This may, or may not, help,

Guide to Naval Orders of Dress 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=93984.0
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Offline jollyjacktar

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2017, 18:33:48 »
I'm wearing a leather belt on a daily basis.  No one has questioned it.  Can't speak to added crests and doo dads as I just run with my name tag only.  Won't wear the SSI.
I'm just like the CAF, I seem to have retention issues.

Offline Lumber

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2017, 19:22:25 »
Responses in yellow:

Appologies, I've been up in the NCR for a bit now at a primarily Army unit and am a little out of touch with dress changes.

Couple of questions:

1. Boarding party crests. Are they not still supposed to be removed when no longer part of a team?
Supposed to be removed, but you still see a former NBP member walking around thinking he's a diver...
The way I figure it out is, only "Specialist" badges are worn, and the NBP badge is not found anywhere in the specialist badge section of the dress regs (it's actually not mentioned at all in the dress regs). So, it's worn when you're posted to a ship AND a member of the team, but once you leave that very specific environment, it's not longer authorized dress.

2. Belts and NCDs. For years when I was at sea everyone either wore a CF issue belt or a black leather belt. Now apparently there is a black web belt with black buckle. Apparently it's not available via my local supply. Is this the only approved belt now? Or are the brass on brass, old leather belts, and the belts with unit / branch insignia still allowed.

IAW the dress regs, Figure 5D-1 (No. 5 Operational Dress: Naval Combat Dress), Notes #2:
"2. Belt, leather black, or web black shall be worn."




References appreciated.

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Offline NavalMoose

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2017, 07:54:16 »
I'm wearing a leather belt on a daily basis.  No one has questioned it.  Can't speak to added crests and doo dads as I just run with my name tag only.  Won't wear the SSI.

Does it not mean you are out of the rig of the day if you don't wear your SSI?  Just curious.

Offline jollyjacktar

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2017, 08:11:38 »
I wear the bloody thing in salt and pepper.  I had heard that the cloth badge we just removed from the CF tunic can be put onto the NCD jacket.  If so, I'm not going there, just my name tape.
I'm just like the CAF, I seem to have retention issues.

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2017, 10:19:20 »
Yeah, that was a recent change with the tunic, which was ironically just after I finally got mine sewn on (was using a safety pin for a while that worked because the crest is pretty stiff).

If you draw the new NCDs there is a bunch of flair as well; I left the fleet in Jan but there were about 3 generations of jackets floating around, so it was funny to see the older ones with the basic ships crest and name tape next to a brand new one with ships crest, name tape, huge naval jack, canada flag, random 'operation crests' (most for short exercises), the SSI and whatever other qualifications someone has, it looks like some kind of Mr. Potato head version where the kids stick on patches everywhere.

Offline jollyjacktar

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2017, 12:10:20 »
They could always come out with a Boy Scout sash for all the added badges and crap.   :nod:
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 22:31:30 by jollyjacktar »
I'm just like the CAF, I seem to have retention issues.

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2017, 13:36:49 »
Or a vest!  Glad this guy found work in the naval dress committee after this movie was done.  ;D ;


Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2017, 14:13:08 »
Or, since it is an "operational" dress, perhaps more of a Klingon sash?


Offline FSTO

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2017, 21:59:20 »
 BADGES! We need more stinking BADGES!

Offline Sailorwest

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2017, 23:17:55 »
its fun working at Chotchkies. I have benignly delayed getting a new NCD jacket and still have one with a bluish patina because it still fits

Offline jollyjacktar

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2017, 18:15:08 »
Damn it OGBD, I can only give you points once a day.  Another good post.   :salute:

Then join the fricken CG if you want overtime. (My apologies)

The OT or lack thereof isn't a dissatifier , I have my new trade and direction we're going to pick my ***.  Thank you very much.


I for one enjoy the parades either when I was a platoon cdr or now when I get the the chance to be the parade cdr. For the general public to see a well turned out UNIFORM parade (not these gawd awful coat of many colours parades) shows us to be a professional force that deserves the honour, responsibility and capability to expend the country's treasure in the defence of the realm. The general public has very few opportunities to see us at sea, in the field or in the air. But when we are on parade in the public eye I'd rather we look sharp, professional and uniform than bags of shyte. Because if we look like bags of shyte or just hide from the public, the razor thin support that we do have will evaporate pretty quick!

Now I know that most here don't believe in Buttons and Bows but there is a place for it because we are not the F'n Coast Guard we are the CAF and we should look the part at all times.

As I said before, those of us who have to put on these parades to cheer you up don't necessarily get the same thrill you get at the head of the line.  Sorry.  I could riposte that you could switch to the GGFG if you want so badly to put on public drill displays.

I'm just like the CAF, I seem to have retention issues.

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2017, 20:35:40 »
I don't mind the bling so much on the tunics; it's the junk on the NCDs that needs to go.  It's a work jacket that is also supposed to be fire retardant, so how about we stop covering it with flammable velcro patches and bunch of badges, most of which are irrelevant to the function of the jacket.  The huge white naval jack is probably the most impractical part; we hammer the juniour sailors to always bring their jacket everywhere (as a protective second layer in case you do run across a fire) then we slap a huge white flag on the shoulder that they will get ripped apart for if it gets dirty, which it will tend to do if you carry it around the ship with you as directed.

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2017, 20:56:42 »
How will people know that you're RCN if you don't have 15 things and a giant white ensign that say RCN?

Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2017, 21:22:07 »
I was at a town hall on Fri with the Kraken and he said the new trial NCD's are being shipped and the trial will only be for 4 weeks. So another new order of dress is coming it seems.
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Offline Nuggs

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2017, 21:47:51 »
Those the new ninja black pajamas?

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Offline FSTO

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2017, 21:57:47 »
I don't mind the bling so much on the tunics; it's the junk on the NCDs that needs to go.  It's a work jacket that is also supposed to be fire retardant, so how about we stop covering it with flammable velcro patches and bunch of badges, most of which are irrelevant to the function of the jacket.  The huge white naval jack is probably the most impractical part; we hammer the juniour sailors to always bring their jacket everywhere (as a protective second layer in case you do run across a fire) then we slap a huge white flag on the shoulder that they will get ripped apart for if it gets dirty, which it will tend to do if you carry it around the ship with you as directed.
Well if they quit trying to make it into a walking out dress and keep it as shipboard only clothing we wouldn't have to put so many pieces of flare on it to ID us as RCN.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2017, 22:51:05 »
I've never understood walking out dress.  The army and air force go home in their operational dress.
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Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2017, 23:06:29 »
I don't mind the bling so much on the tunics; it's the junk on the NCDs that needs to go.  It's a work jacket that is also supposed to be fire retardant, so how about we stop covering it with flammable velcro patches and bunch of badges, most of which are irrelevant to the function of the jacket.  The huge white naval jack is probably the most impractical part; we hammer the juniour sailors to always bring their jacket everywhere (as a protective second layer in case you do run across a fire) then we slap a huge white flag on the shoulder that they will get ripped apart for if it gets dirty, which it will tend to do if you carry it around the ship with you as directed.

When the dress committee came out with all the new bling I really thought they were joking. Not all the bling is actually authorized officially or supported through clothing stores.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline Old EO Tech

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2017, 00:34:52 »
I've never understood walking out dress.  The army and air force go home in their operational dress.

The Army did used to have walking out dress, but it was your dress when you went on course off base, not what you were required to wear home after work...

Jon

Offline Dimsum

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2017, 10:32:49 »
I've never understood walking out dress.  The army and air force go home in their operational dress.

Half of my section leaves in PT gear.  They leave their uniforms in lockers at the hangar.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2017, 17:52:06 »
Half of my section leaves in PT gear.  They leave their uniforms in lockers at the hangar.

Oh, that's a no-no in the Ditch unless you are going to actually do PT.   ^-^  (now the *is it actually enforced* aspect is a different topic...).

You guys have sections?  Not in crews?

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Offline NavyShooter

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2017, 21:28:06 »
When the dress committee came out with all the new bling I really thought they were joking. Not all the bling is actually authorized officially or supported through clothing stores.

*THIS

I work in BLog Halifax right now. 

We do not have the ability to provide the 'bling' to any sailors here in Halifax.  Anyone who has it has either spent their own coin, or their unit has bought it. 

Esquimalt apparently did a one-time-buy of 'bling' but nothing sustained.

We do not have the new model uniforms, nor the crests, nor the time with the tailor to handle modifying all of the uniforms currently available.

Some ships have been having their deck departments work on this as a solution.

In direct discussion with my unit Chief (BLog Halifax Cox'n) we are not (and I am not) wearing the new layout of 'bling' until it is available for general issue to all the troops.  I have specifically ordered my sailors not to modify their uniform, nor to spend their own money on buying the flags/bling/etc.

The Tailor in Dockyard turns away 3-5 people per day (or more) who want us to modify their uniform to the 'new standard.' 

Nope. 

I'm not old school, I just don't want to see my troops out of pocket for something that should be a nationally funded initiative.  (Note also, units procuring these items out of their unit budget are actually breaking purchasing rules to do so....or so say the Loggies that I work with.)

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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2017, 05:58:53 »
*THIS
 (Note also, units procuring these items out of their unit budget are actually breaking purchasing rules to do so....or so say the Loggies that I work with.)

I am still new to LPO but my understanding is that NP Funds are ok to be used to procure this "bling" but public funds are a no-no. 

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Offline Lumber

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2017, 08:16:12 »
I am still new to LPO but my understanding is that NP Funds are ok to be used to procure this "bling" but public funds are a no-no.

Incorrect. The CO is free to use his O&M budget to procure these items if he wishes.
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Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2017, 09:55:43 »
A good example is the ship's ballcaps; those are bought with the ship's budget and issued when you get posted in.  Most Coxns are reasonable enough to replace them once they get worn and faded as well rather then get the sailor to buy one from the canteen.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2017, 10:03:17 »
Aren't you supposed to have an "old worn and faded" headdress to wear at sea so that everybody onboard knows you're an Old Sea Dog ???

Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2017, 11:10:15 »
Incorrect. The CO is free to use his O&M budget to procure these items if he wishes.

I stand corrected.
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Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2017, 14:40:12 »
I know that NAVRES units were sent Velcro and patches and told to have their jackets done. At my unit we are expected to look alike and went to a CPF to have the jackets tailored and had to buy the patches. Some of these patches are quite expensive. It would be almost better to have a embroidery machine to produce the patches locally.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

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Offline FSTO

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2017, 15:11:38 »
I know that NAVRES units were sent Velcro and patches and told to have their jackets done. At my unit we are expected to look alike and went to a CPF to have the jackets tailored and had to buy the patches. Some of these patches are quite expensive. It would be almost better to have a embroidery machine to produce the patches locally.

Or, just stay with the name-tag and your ships crest.

Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2017, 15:16:11 »
Or, just stay with the name-tag and your ships crest.

I hear you however this was a collective dress committee decision. I agree with some of it however I think its a bit too much. I like the mission patches and the SSI but the rest is kind of over the top.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2017, 16:33:14 »



Why in the hell are we trying to dress up operational dress? I don't see the Army putting jump wings on cadpat.

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Offline Nuggs

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2017, 18:08:47 »
Well this "belt buckle / boarding party crest" is sufficiently off the rails...

Long story short....

Boarding party crest, no nothing has changed. It get removed if you're not active on a team.

Belt buckle, maybe I'll try and find direction on the black one.
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Offline MCG

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2017, 18:09:26 »
I hear you however this was a collective dress committee decision.
Perhaps the problem is the fact that CAF has standing dress committees with the only responsibility being to tinker with dress?  Could the CAF disband the committees or mandate that they meet not more frequently than triennially?

Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2017, 18:17:07 »
Perhaps the problem is the fact that CAF has standing dress committees with the only responsibility being to tinker with dress?  Could the CAF disband the committees or mandate that they meet not more frequently than triennially?


I assume other elements have the same kind of thing? It seems though its a case of the good ideas club at times.
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Offline Journeyman

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2017, 02:19:22 »
But you only get to wear 2 specialty badges, so you're not showing off.  ::)
i.e. - the Canadian Army Sergeant Major has two badges, so there is a requirement  to wear up to two.  :not-again:

Offline mariomike

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2017, 09:58:35 »
See also,

Sea Service Insignia 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=95432.50
6 pages.
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2017, 20:28:51 »
It's almost as though there were very real differences in how the various components train and operate, and that passing judgement on one from a basis of experience in another might end up making the person doing the analysis look ignorant...

Time training is time spent getting ready to do the business. Doesn't matter if that training time is 20,000 feet over an air weapons range, 5 feet deep in a trench line in Wainwright/Gagetown/Petawawa, or sailing around the ocean gaining currencies after a refit. You're being awarded a medal for literally being capable of going to sea. You know what the actual incentive the CAF gives you for doing that? SDA. Much like I get paid more for being in a field unit and having to do field stuff, you get paid more for being on a ship and going to sea.  The fact that you think you need a uniform device to show people that you've sailed while wearing a RCN uniform means that you think so poorly of the readiness/availability of the RCN that just the uniform alone isn't enough to signify someone has more time at sea than in port.

As noted earlier, SSI is just a big male sexual organ measuring contest to see who is "the better sailor", when realistically the rank and position should denote experience and trust that the sailor can/has done their job, and done it well. Giant white ensigns on uniforms, SSIs, ordering all shore-posted pers to wear NCDs smacks of an identity crisis and a constant feeling of inferiority instead of focusing on being a quiet professional and letting the myriad of news articles from Op CARIBBE and CTF-150 (among many others) do the talking.

Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2017, 21:42:17 »
Time training is time spent getting ready to do the business. Doesn't matter if that training time is 20,000 feet over an air weapons range, 5 feet deep in a trench line in Wainwright/Gagetown/Petawawa, or sailing around the ocean gaining currencies after a refit. You're being awarded a medal for literally being capable of going to sea. You know what the actual incentive the CAF gives you for doing that? SDA. Much like I get paid more for being in a field unit and having to do field stuff, you get paid more for being on a ship and going to sea.  The fact that you think you need a uniform device to show people that you've sailed while wearing a RCN uniform means that you think so poorly of the readiness/availability of the RCN that just the uniform alone isn't enough to signify someone has more time at sea than in port.

As noted earlier, SSI is just a big male sexual organ measuring contest to see who is "the better sailor", when realistically the rank and position should denote experience and trust that the sailor can/has done their job, and done it well. Giant white ensigns on uniforms, SSIs, ordering all shore-posted pers to wear NCDs smacks of an identity crisis and a constant feeling of inferiority instead of focusing on being a quiet professional and letting the myriad of news articles from Op CARIBBE and CTF-150 (among many others) do the talking.

Puckchaser I suspect you are really a closet sailor with all the kind words about the RCN uniform based on your insightful comments. Have a great navy day.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Naval Dress Questions
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2017, 22:12:06 »
Puckchaser I suspect you are really a closet sailor with all the kind words about the RCN uniform based on your insightful comments. Have a great navy day.

Its a new CAF. If I'm not one of the 58 genders or a closet something, I won't get very far in my career.