Author Topic: Jeans & mass punishment? #2  (Read 22914 times)

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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2018, 16:29:54 »
Are you conflating a disagreeable dress standard with a manifestly unlawful order?

I am stating that we want officers who ask "why", and who challenge those above them (when it is an appropriate time to do so).

"Because I say so" is not a valid approach with a five year old, let alone people we want to be institutional leaders.


Has this been done well?  No.  Not by the students nor by the college.  I continue to be underwhelmed by the peninsula and all its inhabitants.
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Offline stellarpanther

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2018, 16:45:13 »
It hasn't worked yet.
To me you either have the values or you don't.
You can't train them in. Yes they can hide for a while but personal values eventually come out.

I was just about to post exactly what you just said.  In my opinion, the only thing they are going to do is possibly make some cadets afraid to wear jeans while there.  This will be viewed as a punishment by the cadets regardless of the real reason.   Once they leave RMC they will be in leadership positions and do as they please for the most part.  Unfortunately, the CAF is always slow to adopt change.  they have a kinds of meetings and town halls asking for peoples opinions and suggestions and then just say no. I and many of my peers believe these are all for show so it makes the leadership look like their listening when in reality they don't care.  It's there way or else.

I once read an article in the U.S. that said if leaders can only get their people to follow them with the conquence of being punishment if they don't, then they are not good leaders.  Someone else can decide if that's accurate or not.

Offline X Royal

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2018, 16:47:22 »
At this point I'm starting to wonder if the ones continuing to focus on the jeans issue even bothered to read HB's explanation of what the viewpoint on what is going on from the staff side of the house.   ???
Or questoning the staffs veiw point?

Offline SF2

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2018, 16:52:26 »
G2G - in 4th yr, it was 5s in town during duty hrs.   

Offline Remius

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2018, 17:26:18 »

I once read an article in the U.S. that said if leaders can only get their people to follow them with the conquence of being punishment if they don't, then they are not good leaders.  Someone else can decide if that's accurate or not.

Some times we don’t have good followers either.
Optio

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2018, 17:34:07 »
Or questoning the staffs veiw point?

Questioning is always welcome.  After the decision was made the Commandant who is a Brigadier-General held a Senior Barmen hour with 4-Bar Cadets and above i.e. The Top 19 Cadets in the College, they argued with the Cmdt and the DCdts about the Jean policy and it was also explained to them why this action was being taken.  The Cadet Wing Commander who is the Senior Cadet has unrestricted access to DCdts and can talk to him whenever he wants.  I don't know of anywhere else in the CAF where OCdts can have open and frank discussions with a General Officer.

I maintain an open door policy with all my Cadets, if they have a problem, they are encouraged to bring it up and I will always work towards getting them an answer although I am always letting them know that doesn't necessarily mean the ruling will automatically be in their favour.

The morning this broke to the media, I read CAF Reddit.  The commentary was completely unprofessional.  "Lets shame DCdts" "lets troll his Facebook and social media pages" "I want to make sure everyone knows how terrible he is!" Blahblahblah

I've known DCdts for eight months and between him and the Cmdt, they have pretty much singlehandedly restored my faith in CAF leadership.  DCdts is a true professional, the man is at every Cadet event, is the first at work and the last to leave,  he is physically fit and leads by example.  A particular example of this is one morning I came in to work at 0515hrs to do PT a bit later with my Sqn only to run in to a DCdts ruckmarching around the Peninsula.  The man is a true professional, he has commanded at Squadron and Regiment level and has lost soldiers overseas.  The guy isn't some sort of Chateau Officer who sits in the gallery munching on cucumber sandwiches while sipping on cognac and smoking cigars.  He is the example!

Honestly, I was PO'ed at the Cadets who wrote that crap. 

The thing that made me most angry though was the following:

I went to RMC and those who know me well know I was no angel, more like a young punk with an attitude.  I broke the rules many times and made many mistakes.  I was twice CB'ed for 21 days in 4s and Gaitors for breaking CADWINS.  I was even charged (it's on my conduct sheet) and I pled guilty.  Not once did I ever not accept the punishment or feel the need to go on Reddit, call the National Post or not accept responsibility for my actions.  Honestly, if this is what some Cadets have decided to do, they are cowards and I don't want to serve with them. 

Offline X Royal

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2018, 17:43:39 »
And maybe some don't want to serve with those who blindly follow BS policies?
Group punishment is just that.
Deal with the offenders.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2018, 17:48:38 »
And maybe some don't want to serve with those who blindly follow BS policies?
Group punishment is just that.
Deal with the offenders.

X Royal, you can continue to ignore the majority of what I say and cherry pick pieces to suit your narrative, that's your prerogative. 

Offline X Royal

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2018, 17:53:39 »
When those below me rank wise were getting screwed over I was the first to defend them.
Yes I took a few hits for that but I am proud of that.
If someone deserved a charge it also happened.
Never did I employ group punishment or defend it as to me that shows a complete lack of leadership.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2018, 18:01:11 »
And maybe some don't want to serve with those who blindly follow BS policies?
Group punishment is just that.
Deal with the offenders.

Jesus wept.

Did no one read what HB posted?

RMC is a training establishment.

At a training establishment, the ideas of both self and collective discipline have to be instilled.

This Commandant has arrived at the conclusion that the Cadet Wing needs a reinforcement in the concept of collective discipline. The jeans thing is a bit of a red herring. But hey- it says right there in the Q&ROs we can violate orders that we personally judge to be ridiculous, right?

In fact, we follow all orders, unless we find them to be manifestly unlawful. I am pretty sure jeans fails to sink to the standard of beating a thief to death in Somalia.

But since the Airborne Regiment was raised as an example, I was in Petawawa in the early 1990s. There was a group of people who sincerely believed they could pick and choose which orders to follow.

How did that work out for us all?

Online Good2Golf

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2018, 18:06:08 »
G2G - in 4th yr, it was 5s in town during duty hrs.

5's!  Man, you guys really had the easy times in the 90's! SKT and I would have killed for 5's!  We had to live in a shoe box...

When those below me rank wise were getting screwed over I was the first to defend them.
Yes I took a few hits for that but I am proud of that.
If someone deserved a charge it also happened.
Never did I employ group punishment or defend it as to me that shows a complete lack of leadership.

And you were always able to non-assumptively identify 100% of the offenders and leave 100% of the non-offenders untouched?  If only the CAF had more of you, X Royal...

Regards
G2G

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2018, 18:06:43 »
Jesus wept.

Did no one read what HB posted?

RMC is a training establishment.

At a training establishment, the ideas of both self and collective discipline have to be instilled.

This Commandant has arrived at the conclusion that the Cadet Wing needs a reinforcement in the concept of collective discipline. The jeans thing is a bit of a red herring. But hey- it says right there in the Q&ROs we can violate orders that we personally judge to be ridiculous, right?

In fact, we follow all orders, unless we find them to be manifestly unlawful. I am pretty sure jeans fails to sink to the standard of beating a thief to death in Somalia.

But since the Airborne Regiment was raised as an example, I was in Petawawa in the early 1990s. There was a group of people who sincerely believed they could pick and choose which orders to follow.

How did that work out for us all?

We can all google "Shidane Arone" the photos aren't pretty. 

If there is one thing I've learned about RMC, everyone has their own opinion of how they would do this or do that with respect to running the institution.  What I know, we have support from the very top and we are operating IAW NDA, QR&Os, DAODs and CFAOs.  That is what matters to me.

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2018, 18:11:02 »
We can all google "Shidane Arone" the photos aren't pretty. 

...and count how many of the officers involved up to the TF Commander were RMC graduates... :not-again:

Quote
If there is one thing I've learned about RMC, everyone has their own opinion of how they would do this or do that with respect to running the institution.  What I know, we have support from the very top and we are operating IAW NDA, QR&Os, DAODs and CFAOs.  That is what matters to me.

^ this!

Offline X Royal

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2018, 18:12:09 »
At a training establishment, the ideas of both self and collective discipline have to be instilled.
Why?
All group punishments do is divide the group.
Counterproductive to a strong group.
Proper leadership takes thought to deal with the problems not just punish all.
When I was instructing a basic course and all was good except the bathroom sinks I didn't punish the whole group. Only those responsible for cleaning the sinks and the course senior for ensuring it was done properly.

Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2018, 18:57:30 »
I’m failing to understand why there is such contention surrounding group punishment or whatever else it’s referred to as. It’s nothing new during training—at least not for me. While measures directed solely at an individual are necessary under certain circumstances, superiors also arrive at the conclusion that collective discipline is necessary for whatever reasons also—sometimes it’s a combination of both. Both exist and both serve their purposes. There are times when either method isn’t delivered as methodically and exactly as perhaps it should have been, but c’est la vie—life goes on. It ticks people off, they get over it, they move on, hopefully lessons are learned on all levels.

I have always been under the impression that, especially when being trained (officer and/or ncm), one is not awarded the luxury of deciding which rules/policies/(lawful)orders etc they decide they do or do NOT want to follow. I’ve also been distinctly under the impression that just because one person gets away with doing something doesn’t mean it’s free reign for others to follow suit until someone gets caught/punished.

Sure. Ideally, from my point of view, it would’ve been much easier had people been crunched-on for dress code infractions much earlier on (and maybe they were) prior to it becoming a massive issue. But if it was, individual discipline wasn’t working. So what’s the next step in order to get the point across that strict change is/was needed? If one doesn’t like it, handle one’s complaints appropriately. And grand scheme, it’s simply not a big deal for a person to have to adhere to a certain dress code for a very small fraction of one’s life. Honestly. And even less so being CB’d for a short time. Grand scheme.

On a personal level I’m disgusted that students went to the media about this. It screams ridiculousness and reeks of poor entitled brats who don’t get to do what they want when they want—IN the military? Uhhh... So now the school has completely unnecessary complications to deal with on top of trying to address the issues that HB very kindly explained, which shed much-needed light on the entire situation.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 19:02:46 by BeyondTheNow »
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2018, 18:57:40 »
Why?
All group punishments do is divide the group.
Counterproductive to a strong group.
Proper leadership takes thought to deal with the problems not just punish all.
When I was instructing a basic course and all was good except the bathroom sinks I didn't punish the whole group. Only those responsible for cleaning the sinks and the course senior for ensuring it was done properly.

Good for you. I assume you did this because you judged it the correct response for the situation?

Can you not at least give the Commandant of RMC the same consideration and assuming he is doing what he is for the right reasons? Since none of us are actually at RMC?

Offline stellarpanther

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2018, 19:00:33 »
With all the problems, moral issues etc at RMC, this action IMO is going to undo any progress that may have been gained.  It was said somewhere here that 95 percent of the cadets follow the rules. Would it not have been better to have staff hand around to personally identify the offending mbrs.  I can guarantee that this will be viewed as a punishment regardless of what the Comdt wants to call it and things will be worse.   

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2018, 19:02:17 »
When those below me rank wise were getting screwed over I was the first to defend them.
Yes I took a few hits for that but I am proud of that.
If someone deserved a charge it also happened.
Never did I employ group punishment or defend it as to me that shows a complete lack of leadership.

IMRO there comes a time in training when individual punishment fails to work. Punishing the group sometimes yields surprising results.  People respond differently when others are being punished for their failing.
There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2018, 19:04:33 »
Quote from: stellarpanther
I can guarantee that this will be viewed as a punishment regardless of what the Comdt wants to call it and things will be worse.
If they can't follow the rules maybe they should quit.
There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2018, 19:05:46 »
IMRO there comes a time in training when individual punishment fails to work. Punishing the group sometimes yields surprising results.  People respond differently when others are being punished for their failing.

Exactly.

Group discipline is not my "go to setting" for correcting behaviour. But it is a legitimate and time tested tool in the toolbox.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2018, 19:11:56 »
I was just about to post exactly what you just said.  In my opinion, the only thing they are going to do is possibly make some cadets afraid to wear jeans while there.  This will be viewed as a punishment by the cadets regardless of the real reason.   Once they leave RMC they will be in leadership positions and do as they please for the most part.  Unfortunately, the CAF is always slow to adopt change.  they have a kinds of meetings and town halls asking for peoples opinions and suggestions and then just say no. I and many of my peers believe these are all for show so it makes the leadership look like their listening when in reality they don't care.  It's there way or else.

I once read an article in the U.S. that said if leaders can only get their people to follow them with the conquence of being punishment if they don't, then they are not good leaders.  Someone else can decide if that's accurate or not.

“If you can't get them to salute when they should salute and wear the clothes you tell them to wear, how are you going to get them to die for their country?”. General George S. Patton
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline stellarpanther

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #71 on: March 04, 2018, 19:17:28 »
If they can't follow the rules maybe they should quit.
...or maybe those with archaic ways of thinking should retire if they can't adopt to what is accepted in society.

I just mentioned this thread to my son and his friend, both in high school and their comment was "that's why a lot of kids don't want to join the military anymore.  I'm starting to think that RMC and the rest of the military is going to go the way of the navy and everyone is going to release or simply not join.

My question to those here that may be in senior leadership postion is this:  You do survey after survey and hold townhalls to discuss the issues that concern the troops but you rarely listen to them or it takes forever to implement a simple change that a CO can quickly make.  Why even bother because to be honest, it makes things worse when they know leadership is aware but not willing to do anything about it.

A simple example is this.  In Ottawa many units allow civi Fridays, others don't for the simple reason of the CO not being a fan of it.  In my mind that is a simple way to improve moral that causes zero harm to anyone but it doesn't happen because one person simply doesn't like it.



« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 19:20:09 by stellarpanther »

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #72 on: March 04, 2018, 19:30:58 »
So, HB, if I understand the chronology:

1. Senior cadets engage their CoC to get things changed;

2. CoC says no, sorry, rules remain;

3. Senior cadets unable to get subordinates to follow rules;

4. Group punishment.


May I suggest that the CoC skipped step 3a: Replace cadet leadership?  Why can't new people be given senior appointments midway through the year, if those filling the positions can't get the other cadets to obey?
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #73 on: March 04, 2018, 20:44:20 »
So, HB, if I understand the chronology:

1. Senior cadets engage their CoC to get things changed;

2. CoC says no, sorry, rules remain;

3. Senior cadets unable to get subordinates to follow rules;

4. Group punishment.


May I suggest that the CoC skipped step 3a: Replace cadet leadership?  Why can't new people be given senior appointments midway through the year, if those filling the positions can't get the other cadets to obey?

You're missing a few steps and your understanding of the situation is only partially correct.  Firstly, Cadet Leadership changes every semester.  The Training Wing Staff looks at how Cadets performed each semester and based off that performance assigns them leadership positions.  This Barslate has been in position since January and we will begin looking at next years positions in about a month from now. 

The reason Cadets aren't removed wholesale from Barslate positions is because as I stated earlier, this is a training institution.  The Senior Cadets will be afforded the opportunity to correct their mistakes.  That isn't to say Cadets can't lose their bar positions, I removed one Cadet's bars this semester for very poor Academic Performance for instance and awarded them to another Cadet who was taking their schooling more seriously and had been passed over for positions.

You should also know that every Cadet has a training file that is internal to the school, everything they do is noted by me, whether it's good or bad.  This file is sanitized when they graduate and a course report is generated.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 20:48:24 by Humphrey Bogart »

Offline Simian Turner

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Re: Jeans & mass punishment? #2
« Reply #74 on: March 05, 2018, 01:12:24 »
IMHO the jeans issue is the last straw that finally broke the Comdt's patience.  Rather than allowing things to remain at business casual (vice jeans) he could easily change it to Dress 3, 4 or 5s as walking out wear.  Business casual is a happy medium I think.  Do they have set meal hours and class times or can Cadets come and go as they please.  What if the Cadets are not morning people couldn't we just change the class or meal times?  They are attending a military institution, therefore, rules, self-discipline and standards should be the backbone of their learning.  If it was the haircut, footwear, headdress policy would corrective action been so objectionable? 

At a time in history when woman, minorities and transgender folks are fighting to be treated the same as white men - is this really about jeans or is it about respect for standards? Respect is a two-street as long as a mob (mentality) isn't coming from one direction!

The grand essentials of happiness: something to do, something to love, something to hope for.  Allan K. Chalmers