Author Topic: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual  (Read 29760 times)

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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #50 on: April 16, 2018, 11:36:21 »
Those last three comments are fully indicative of the lack of understanding of naval matters. I hate to say it that way, but the Army and Air Force (most of it) just don't get it!

Here I go again: The Navies of the world have diplomatic functions - all the time or just about - and wherever they go. This means we have to dress and play the part. And if we cannot dress to play the part - like all other nation's people we meet with - Canadian image abroad is weakened by that much. The functions we carry abroad can range, in civilian equivalent, from sales rep at a trade show to State dinner, passing through business dinner-conference. We have to be able to dress for such part, in all different climates.

Think about the Air Forces that deploy to international air shows and will be in the public eye: They get their best dress and behaviour on, and are well above the level of dress they would wear for deployment to an allied exercise.

Well, the Navy is "out to air shows" all the time we are abroad.




Offline MCG

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2018, 11:44:33 »
... G1 Dress and Ceremonial ...
This is a real position?

No reason for a second dress uniform at public expense. Optional item? Certainly.
I agree, but did the Army not just get branch and regimental ceremonial uniforms approved for public funds?

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2018, 11:47:45 »

Think about the Air Forces that deploy to international air shows and will be in the public eye: They get their best dress and behaviour on, and are well above the level of dress they would wear for deployment to an allied exercise.

Well, the Navy is "out to air shows" all the time we are abroad.

Yes.  RCAF wears DEUs.  As the RCN can.

I agree, but did the Army not just get branch and regimental ceremonial uniforms approved for public funds?

I have no time for the small segment of the CA that aspires to outfit the collection of rum platoons scattered across the nation, claiming to be regiments, each with different regimental quiffs.
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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #53 on: April 16, 2018, 12:01:08 »
Here I go again: The Navies of the world have diplomatic functions - all the time or just about - and wherever they go. This means we have to dress and play the part..
Wasn't there a recent diplomatic fashion show in Bollywood?   :whistle:
       :stirpot:   

I don't have a dog anywhere near this fight, but I actually think the RCN should have their high-collar whites.

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #54 on: April 16, 2018, 12:37:20 »
We recruit young, fit, impressive looking pers, who properly represent our nation, but won't dress them properly to attend class internationally.
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2018, 12:51:21 »
We recruit young, fit, impressive looking pers, who properly represent our nation, but won't dress them properly to attend class internationally.

What, precisely, is wrong with the uniform?

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Offline Remius

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #56 on: April 16, 2018, 13:04:52 »
Those last three comments are fully indicative of the lack of understanding of naval matters. I hate to say it that way, but the Army and Air Force (most of it) just don't get it!

Here I go again: The Navies of the world have diplomatic functions - all the time or just about - and wherever they go. This means we have to dress and play the part. And if we cannot dress to play the part - like all other nation's people we meet with - Canadian image abroad is weakened by that much. The functions we carry abroad can range, in civilian equivalent, from sales rep at a trade show to State dinner, passing through business dinner-conference. We have to be able to dress for such part, in all different climates.



Well given that I was one of those last three comments and I explicitly stated I was asking questions that felt were legitimate because I certainly don't have a full grasp of the Navy which is why I was asking in the first place.

I also think that some people have a lack of understanding about the orders of dress.  All of those functions you listed are all appropriate for 1 C or 1 D (which is what high collared whites are).  The proposal to the committee was designated the high collared whites into 1 B.   it is likely that the 1 Navy guy at the board didn't have sufficient justification for the change.

No one is removing the High Collared Whites.  they are 1 C and 1 D just like the army has 1 C and D patrols for similar functions.  The army does not wear ceremonial full dress to diplomatic functions at home or abroad unless part of a ceremony of some sort, on parade and filling a ceremonial function.  by making HCW into 1 B it would be inappropriate to wear that order of dress for the very functions you are listing above because full dress is not appropriate for those types of functions.

I'm actually all for ceremonial dress and tradition.  I also think the WHC uniforms are the best looking ones the Navy has.  But I'm asking what the justification is.  is their a ceremonial dress capability gap that the current uniform isn't serving?  ie 1s?  With the exception of a few units that have regimental full dress and can kit out enough troops, the whole of the CAF uses 1s for all sorts of parades and ceremonial functions.

The uniform looks sharp.  Sure.  But so do patrols and mess kit but neither are 1 B nor should they be.

 

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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #57 on: April 16, 2018, 13:27:58 »
Nothing wrong with those uniforms, DP.

But that's taken in Canada, indoor and likely in winter.

You want to attend three hours long lunch function on an opened terrace in Bahrain in summer in those black, wool uniforms? BE MY GUEST, but I ain't going under any circumstances unless I am wearing white cotton or breathable material!

Also consider that we would then look (in black DEU's) totally goofy standing besides every single other nation's sailors wearing their high-end whites.

I am going to go one better: We can probably use a naval khaki for summer undress.

I know the army has hives every time you propose a new uniform. In the Navy we believe in dressing properly for all occasions. It means options.

I understand where the Army comes from: You have to carry your stuff on your backs. We don't - we have lockers (albeit small - but still).

Anyway - we are never going to resolve these issues here. The only thing to be said is that the choices and numbers of different dress of a given element should be left to that element, not the whims of the other ones.
 
And, Remius: State dinner, official dinners, evening cocktail/reception with foreign member of government level or high military command level guests are 1A or 1C functions. In tropical climes, that's the high collar white, with medals. All the Navy is asking is making it an issued piece of gear, and change designation from 1D to 1B for the version with ribbons. You could keep the numbering (1C and 1D respectively), and as long as issued - would have no problems.
 

Offline Remius

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #58 on: April 16, 2018, 14:56:11 »
Nothing wrong with those uniforms, DP.

But that's taken in Canada, indoor and likely in winter.

You want to attend three hours long lunch function on an opened terrace in Bahrain in summer in those black, wool uniforms? BE MY GUEST, but I ain't going under any circumstances unless I am wearing white cotton or breathable material!

Also consider that we would then look (in black DEU's) totally goofy standing besides every single other nation's sailors wearing their high-end whites.

I am going to go one better: We can probably use a naval khaki for summer undress.

I know the army has hives every time you propose a new uniform. In the Navy we believe in dressing properly for all occasions. It means options.

I understand where the Army comes from: You have to carry your stuff on your backs. We don't - we have lockers (albeit small - but still).

Anyway - we are never going to resolve these issues here. The only thing to be said is that the choices and numbers of different dress of a given element should be left to that element, not the whims of the other ones.
 
And, Remius: State dinner, official dinners, evening cocktail/reception with foreign member of government level or high military command level guests are 1A or 1C functions. In tropical climes, that's the high collar white, with medals. All the Navy is asking is making it an issued piece of gear, and change designation from 1D to 1B for the version with ribbons. You could keep the numbering (1C and 1D respectively), and as long as issued - would have no problems.
 

Again, I don't know why they want the designation to 1B.  It seems like they want the public purse to pay for 1C&D which is already being worn by the Navy for all the functions you listed so why make it 1B when those functions do not require 1B.  So the rule is that you can wear it for those occasions, you just have to pay for it because we already pay for a suitable acceptable alternative.  Like the three hour lunch function you mentioned, 1B is inappropriate, 1 c or 1D depending is or you wear what you are issued.  I suspect army would be in dark green DEU jacket or high collared wool patrols.  Unfortunately we did away with TAN DEUs a while ago. I would have preferred keeping that instead.

No one has removed any of the current choices the Navy has.  They basically told them that your 1 C&D are not appropriate for 1B.  The same thing would have happened if you asked for 3B to be 1B or your mess kit to be the new 1B.

I just get the feeling that it's more about the LCF than any real practical or justified reason to make it 1B.

I like your summer khaki for summer undress idea.     

Except for a few units with actual ceremonial mission tasks, every unit has to pay for their 1C/D, mess kit and regimental full dress using non public funds or at member's expense.  if the Navy has good reason to have Navy White HC paid for at public expense then I have no issues but so far I haven't seen it provided.  If it's because it is too hot in summer then that is a CAF issue as I'm sure the air force and army have the same issues.  Maybe use a thinner more lightweight material?
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #59 on: April 16, 2018, 16:03:30 »
Yet, we can find money to outfit special forces personnel with uniforms they will never wear...

Pretty certain they used their own money to buy those uniforms, for people who are no longer CA/RCAF/RCN but had to wear that DEU anyway. If the RCN wants to make whites an issued item, pony up the cash and make it happen. I'm also fairly certain that the RCN isn't hemorrhaging people (as indicated on multiple occasions on this forum) because your MS/PO2 have to buy high collar whites.  :facepalm:

Offline Loachman

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #60 on: April 16, 2018, 18:20:09 »
Think about the Air Forces that deploy to international air shows and will be in the public eye: They get their best dress and behaviour on, and are well above the level of dress they would wear for deployment to an allied exercise.

The difference between Full Ceremonial Flying Suit and its "exercise" equivalent is merely the elapsed time from laundry to wear - at most.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #61 on: April 16, 2018, 20:11:59 »
Where did you find that? My DWAN bookmark for those minutes hasn't been updated since 2016's meetings.

I think there is a link to what you're looking for on the RCAF CWO DWAN page....NDCDC?  (or whatever the abbrev works out to...)
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #62 on: April 16, 2018, 20:23:38 »
Optional becomes "recommended" which eventually becomes "go talk to the RSM/Adjt and tell them why you think you shouldn't buy one" and eventually becomes accepted as mandatory.

I think you're still talking about mess kits...if so; Pg 2-1-8 of CFP 265, Para 55

WEAR OF MESS DRESS

55.Acquisition

a. All Regular Force officers are required to be in possession of mess dress No. 2, *which shall be procured at individual expense. Newly-commissioned officers are required to obtain this order of dress not later than six months after commissioning.

b. Mess dress No. 2 is optional for Regular Force non-commissioned members and all members of the Reserve Force. Acquisition is the responsibility of the individual.

*not saying I agree with the policy personally; just pointing out what it is IAW 265.  I've wondered a few times what would happen if someone didn't who fell under 55(a) and their CofC tried to charge them under the CSD.

Leads me to a question;  do Band personnel pay for their 'mess kit-like' uniforms?   Ref:  http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/news-template-standard.page?doc=rcaf-band-twin-talents/j56y6b79



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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #63 on: April 16, 2018, 20:38:08 »

Think about the Air Forces that deploy to international air shows and will be in the public eye: They get their best dress and behaviour on, and are well above the level of dress they would wear for deployment to an allied exercise.

 :whistle:

Like this?   For the record, that's a Swordfish patch.   ;)  My guess is the pic is from RIAT 2017.

Honestly, the only CAF folks I've seen in fancy stuff at airshows are the Snowbirds and Skyhawks.  Even bigger ones like the RIAT, I don't think the crews stand the statics in DEU.  Dress of the day AFAIK (I've never done RIAT).  Not a lot of room on the plane for 20 sets of DEUs actually.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 21:09:48 by Eye In The Sky »
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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #64 on: April 16, 2018, 20:45:21 »
I think there is a link to what you're looking for on the RCAF CWO DWAN page....NDCDC?  (or whatever the abbrev works out to...)

I'll take a look tomorrow. I had the link for the committee bookmarked but they haven't been updating it, it was hidden on the DHH DWAN website. It wouldn't surprised me that they moved the archive and just made it impossible for the crappy DWAN search to find it.

Offline Remius

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #65 on: April 16, 2018, 20:57:19 »
I think you're still talking about mess kits...if so; Pg 2-1-8 of CFP 265, Para 55

WEAR OF MESS DRESS

55.Acquisition

a. All Regular Force officers are required to be in possession of mess dress No. 2, *which shall be procured at individual expense. Newly-commissioned officers are required to obtain this order of dress not later than six months after commissioning.

b. Mess dress No. 2 is optional for Regular Force non-commissioned members and all members of the Reserve Force. Acquisition is the responsibility of the individual.

*not saying I agree with the policy personally; just pointing out what it is IAW 265.  I've wondered a few times what would happen if someone didn't who fell under 55(a) and their CofC tried to charge them under the CSD.

Leads me to a question;  do Band personnel pay for their 'mess kit-like' uniforms?   Ref:  http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/news-template-standard.page?doc=rcaf-band-twin-talents/j56y6b79

Concert dress is considered occupational dress.  So no?  At least not in the regular force I believe.  It is on par with what chaplains and MPs wear.  As per ch. 7 of the dress regs.  So my inclination is to say no.  It isn’t actually mess kit despite the resemblance.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #66 on: April 16, 2018, 21:06:01 »
In the pics, the dress looks like cross between the 'new' RCAF mess kit look/color and the cut of the older one.  The ranks don't have the 'braided' look to them either, they look more like the DEU rank.

I have the new one;  thank god I didn't need the gold stripes and such.  $$$
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Offline Remius

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #67 on: April 16, 2018, 21:10:33 »
In the pics, the dress looks like cross between the 'new' RCAF mess kit look/color and the cut of the older one.  The ranks don't have the 'braided' look to them either, they look more like the DEU rank.

I have the new one;  thank god I didn't need the gold stripes and such.  $$$

Yeah, and i believe that miniatures are not worn on concert dress.  Just medals. The army concert dress is red with a similar cut.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #68 on: April 16, 2018, 21:15:50 »
Quote from: Oldgateboatdriver

The  RCMP studies how the public interacts with them and how their appearance affects the public's perception. That's fine but there is a relation with the public that is different from the military ones and I for one don't believe that they intersect.

You see, the RCMP is the police: They are, for the public, the representation in their life of the power of the state over them as enforcers of the law. Military personnel, on the other hand is the representation of the power of the state in their favour, against external enemies - protecting the public from external harm.

when it comes to the power of the state over them as enforcers of the law  I think this very much applies to the military and our subordinate/superior relationship. I think the RCMP study makes sense in that context.
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Offline Once_a_TQ

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #69 on: April 17, 2018, 00:03:39 »
This is a real position?

Right from the signature block.

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Offline Dimsum

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #70 on: April 17, 2018, 00:15:53 »
The difference between Full Ceremonial Flying Suit and its "exercise" equivalent is merely the elapsed time from laundry to wear - at most.

And whether the patches are actually yours or the ones you switched with foreign military crews, usually because they're cooler and in full colour. 

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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #71 on: April 17, 2018, 05:40:32 »
White uniforms and HCW Tunics have a long standing Naval tradition in all Navies that can draw lineage from the RN.  The tunic should be publicly funded through Logisticorp or they just get ride of the whites all together.

Also I find it very hard to believe that SOF Members paid out of pocket for DEUs.  And even if they did I would imagine they were reimbursed.

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Offline Remius

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #72 on: April 17, 2018, 07:09:19 »
White uniforms and HCW Tunics have a long standing Naval tradition in all Navies that can draw lineage from the RN.  The tunic should be publicly funded through Logisticorp or they just get ride of the whites all together.

Also I find it very hard to believe that SOF Members paid out of pocket for DEUs.  And even if they did I would imagine they were reimbursed.

Remember OGB and Pusser we are a Joint = JArmy run organisation.

Why get rid of it?  I still haven’t seen why it should be 1B.  The RN doesn’t have whites as 1B. If we want to follow their tradition which is indeed what we base ours on, then only those above the rank of Commander wear the High Collared Whites with some exceptions as directed.   Should we fund it for those individuals? Maybe.  I don’t know the frequency they would need it for but I bet that a good chunk already have a set they bought themselves. 

Why is this an army vs Navy thing?  The only ones doing this seem to be you Navy Types.  The army is not being funded for patrols or equivalent dress to the HCW.  So why does the Navy feel they should be?  Also note that SOF didn’t get another uniform.  They have a new one that replaces the DEU they used to have.  I didn’t see the full minutes but how do you know the army shut this down?  Maybe they supported but there is a board of advisers like DHH etc that likely explained far better than I have why whites as 1B would be wrong and the reasons not to publicly fund a second uniform when one currently exists.

If the Navy wants a new uniform, cool.  But do it right.  Not make some other order of dress into something it shouldn’t be nor was it designed to be. 

The Navy has an optional order of dress that most in the CAF don’t have.  Cool.  But it is situational and sporadic like patrol dress for some reserve units.  Neither should be funded publicly except for maybe a few people, like embassy attaches, command pers. Etc.

If the navy feels they need new DEUs and a ceremonial uniform then make the appropriate proposal
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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #73 on: April 17, 2018, 07:20:07 »
The RN does have their whites for summer dress occasions equal to our DEU. 

We don't go as far as we're missing a tunic to go with our white trousers and shoes.  That's all that is missing so it's not as expensive as it could be.

I'm personally ambivalent on the matter and are not bothered one way or the other.



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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #74 on: April 17, 2018, 10:04:11 »
Why get rid of it?  I still haven’t seen why it should be 1B.  The RN doesn’t have whites as 1B. If we want to follow their tradition which is indeed what we base ours on, then only those above the rank of Commander wear the High Collared Whites with some exceptions as directed.   Should we fund it for those individuals? Maybe.  I don’t know the frequency they would need it for but I bet that a good chunk already have a set they bought themselves. 

Why is this an army vs Navy thing?  The only ones doing this seem to be you Navy Types.  The army is not being funded for patrols or equivalent dress to the HCW.  So why does the Navy feel they should be?  Also note that SOF didn’t get another uniform.  They have a new one that replaces the DEU they used to have.  I didn’t see the full minutes but how do you know the army shut this down?  Maybe they supported but there is a board of advisers like DHH etc that likely explained far better than I have why whites as 1B would be wrong and the reasons not to publicly fund a second uniform when one currently exists.

If the Navy wants a new uniform, cool.  But do it right.  Not make some other order of dress into something it shouldn’t be nor was it designed to be. 

The Navy has an optional order of dress that most in the CAF don’t have.  Cool.  But it is situational and sporadic like patrol dress for some reserve units.  Neither should be funded publicly except for maybe a few people, like embassy attaches, command pers. Etc.

If the navy feels they need new DEUs and a ceremonial uniform then make the appropriate proposal

The idea of making HCW 1B is strictly so it can be publicly funded.  The trouble is with our numbering system, however.  It simply does not account for two different, yet equivalent orders of dress.  Notwithstanding the cut of the collar, HCW is not equivalent to patrol dress for the Army.  Patrol dress has a specific ceremonial function different from that of the regular green service dress.  HCW, however, is simply a summer version of the Navy's blue service dress.  In other words, it should be numbered 1 and 1A, but that would be confusing in the current chart because those numbers are already taken.  Incidentally, RCN 1.0 addressed this issue by numbering winter/temperate uniforms 1-5 and summer/tropical uniforms 11-15, thus regular dress with medals and accoutrements was No 1 and HCW with medals and accoutrements was No 11.

At one point, everybody was issued two sets of service dress.  The Army had the green and the tan ones and the Air Force had two weights of the same colour uniform.  The Navy was initially supposed to have one white and one blue, but some idiots in NDHQ decided that we needed two blue jackets instead, thus we lost public funding for a white tunic.  Over time, the Air Force decided that there was no point in issuing both winter and summer weight versions of their uniform, largely because no one ever wore the winter weight one, and the Army decided it had too many uniforms, so they dropped the tan one.  Unfortunately, the Navy, despite actually having a need for a summer uniform, is now caught up in a culture that says only one dress uniform is required.  Thus we will continue to parade in a winter weight wool uniform that sucks up the sunlight when standing beside our allies who are all dressed in a sensible lightweight uniform that reflects it.

I am not against the unified force concept.  It has many benefits.  But this idea that just because we are unified means we also have to be "equal" in all things, gets really annoying sometimes.  It often seems that naval custom and culture is forced to take a back seat to whatever the green machine wants.
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