Author Topic: SCC and Trinity Western University  (Read 7892 times)

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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #50 on: July 03, 2018, 20:25:23 »
Leaving the specific aside to focus on the general: understanding others' point of view is key to understanding (properly, rather than creating and substituting strawmen to knock down) why they hold it, and the intensity with which they hold it.  The intensity in particular explains why people violate the my-punch-ends-at-your-nose limit.

People who strongly believe that something is deeply wrong should be expected to continue the fight until they win.  This expectation may be applied to any social issue important enough to any faction.

I hypothesize that the best outcome on any such issue - given infinite determination of the parties at odds - is a compromise, with an interminable low level of dissatisfaction on all sides.  The more one party "wins" and pushes the other to the wall, the more incivility and violence will result.  If a faction in ascendancy yields nothing, eventually the blow-back will be worse than any of the concessions/accommodations it might have made.
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Offline FJAG

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #51 on: July 03, 2018, 22:43:22 »
Getting back to the Trinity Western situation, and stretching the issue from pure religious issues to conservatism, here's an interesting article about the impact that the conservative oriented Federalist Society has had, and is having, on the USSC candidate selection process.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/leonard-leo-supreme-court-federalist-society_us_5b354230e4b0f3c2219f4082

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_Society

In brief, the Federalist Society is a national organization of some 60-70,000 US conservative and libertarian law students and lawyers (out of a total population of some 1.4 million lawyers in the US - and yes, I too think that's way too many)

Their executive vice president Leonard Leo has been instrumental in providing advice to several Republican presidents (including Trump) in selecting supreme court and federal appeal court justices. Five recent USSC justices (including Scalia) have been members of the Federalist Society and 24 of the 25 names on Trumps current list of nominees are members or have been involved in the Society's activities.

Quote
So far, Trump has confirmed one Supreme Court justice, 20 district court judges and a whopping 21 circuit court judges ― more than any president has confirmed by this point in office and nearly one-eighth of all circuit court seats.

“Selecting nominees from The Federalist Society ensures that the right will cement the hold they have on the judiciary for the next several decades,” said Nan Aron, president of Alliance for Justice, a left-leaning judicial advocacy group.

“What they have in common is an exceptional hostility to the progress that’s been made in this country since the New Deal, whether that’s to workers, civil rights litigants, women, consumers or people who care about the environment,” Aron said. “Nominees being confirmed by the Republican Senate today would have been deemed unqualified even under President George W. Bush because of their extremism.”

Amazing what a small determined group can do if you let it.

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Offline Colin P

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #52 on: July 04, 2018, 10:40:54 »
Things are run by those who show up. The Left biggest issue is that much of it's support is a mile wide and a inch deep. Many of them won't be bothered to vote.

Offline FJAG

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2018, 13:33:42 »
Things are run by those who show up. The Left biggest issue is that much of it's support is a mile wide and a inch deep. Many of them won't be bothered to vote.

Too true.

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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2018, 14:54:07 »
Leaving the specific aside to focus on the general: understanding others' point of view is key to understanding (properly, rather than creating and substituting strawmen to knock down) why they hold it, and the intensity with which they hold it.  The intensity in particular explains why people violate the my-punch-ends-at-your-nose limit.

People who strongly believe that something is deeply wrong should be expected to continue the fight until they win.  This expectation may be applied to any social issue important enough to any faction.

I hypothesize that the best outcome on any such issue - given infinite determination of the parties at odds - is a compromise, with an interminable low level of dissatisfaction on all sides.  The more one party "wins" and pushes the other to the wall, the more incivility and violence will result.  If a faction in ascendancy yields nothing, eventually the blow-back will be worse than any of the concessions/accommodations it might have made.

Just trying to choose between analogies - managing a low-grade fever - OR - operating as a high-functioning alcoholic.    ;D
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Offline Colin P

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2018, 13:19:56 »
Things are run by those who show up. The Left biggest issue is that much of it's support is a mile wide and a inch deep. Many of them won't be bothered to vote.

Hate to quote self, but another concern the left (particularly the NDP) is the slow loss of Union support, both from shrinking unions and conflict between environmentalists and union workers. The union worker is generally far more likely to vote, donate and volunteer to help their local candidate, than your average environmentalist ranter. I admit this is a generalist statement, but it holds some truth. Someone that donates, votes and volunteer is almost worth the equivalent of 3 vote, as they can make it possible to motivate and help others to vote, just a simple thing like identifying elderly supporters and helping them get to the correct polling station can have a major impact. 

Offline mariomike

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2018, 14:09:10 »
The union worker is generally far more likely to vote, donate and volunteer to help their local candidate, than your average environmentalist ranter.

I've been retired from the union for over nine years. The union had only one mission: to improve the lives and livelihoods of its members.

Because of that, political candidates were viewed through a very narrow focus.


Offline Chris Pook

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2018, 19:04:28 »
.....
What am I trying to say?

Not all Protestants are Evangelicals.  Not all Evangelicals are Protestants.  In fact not all evangelicals are even Christian or particularly god-fearing.

Most of the most fervent evangelicals, proselytizers, that I encounter these days are not Protestants, largely a dying array of sects, but are in fact socialists, atheists, environmentalists and Muslims.  They seem to be the people most interested in spreading the good news, converting me, redeeming me, saving me, invading the public square with their beliefs.

....


Apparently I am not the only one to perceive things this way:

Quote
Douglas Murray, .... (his) take on how contemporary secularists can be just as dogmatic (and problematic) as the conventionally faithful:

Murray: We may be in the midst of discovering that the only thing worse than religion is its absence. I mean, every day there’s a new dogma. They’re stampeding to create new religions all the time at the moment, [with] every new heresy that’s invented. And they’re not as well thought-through as past heresies. They don’t always have the bloody repercussions yet, but you can easily foresee a situation in which they do. A new religion is being created as we speak by a new generation of people who think they are non-ideological, who think they’re very rational, who think they’re past myth, who think they’re past story, who think they’re better than their ancestors and who have never bothered to even study their ancestors.

This from a review in the Spectator on a discussion among Jordan Peterson, Sam Harris and Douglas Murray at the O2 Arena in London (UK) before 8000 paying customers who attended for the pleasure of hearing them debate.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/primates-like-us-having-conversations-this-is-the-best-game-in-town-jordan-peterson-sam-harris-and-douglas-murray-at-the-02-reviewed/


And T6 - I lied -  :whistle:  I can't seem to cure the addiction.

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Online Thucydides

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #58 on: July 19, 2018, 18:54:36 »
Noting that modern Progressivism is indeed a new "religion" isn't really a new observation (and indeed it is not even limited to "modern" Progressivism, the Communists were pretty efficient at dealing with "heretics", and you can arguably look at the Terror during the French Revolution as the first truly modern instance of secularism as a religion).

This is likely the reason that political discourse is poisoned, you are not arguing rational points and facts, but going up against theological positions. This isn't going to be an easy thing to fix, one argument about the breaking of the religious mindset and setting the stage for the Enlightenment was the great Lisbon earthquake of 1755, which was so profoundly shattering to the prevailing world view that other ideas gained traction. One can only imagine what sort of event of this magnitude would be in the modern age......
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline pbi

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #59 on: July 20, 2018, 13:13:34 »
Amazing what a small determined group can do if you let it.

 :cheers:

I've never been comfortable with the idea of the politicization of the judiciary, (Left or Right), which is what we seem to get from having political parties and their funders get involved in the process. To me it seems to go totally against the idea of a truly independent judiciary, since their appointments are so clearly done to further the agenda of the party with the power to appoint.

I have a hard time seeing what it is in politicians that makes them capable of divining if a judge is any good or not, as opposed to just being "reliable and useful"

I can't say that electing them is any better: IMHO that's just another form of politicization. I once heard a judge in the US comment that to pass a particular judgement would be "suicide for my political career". What is the functional difference between that and judges being swayed by popular opinion, rather than by the rule and spirit of the law?

Do I know how to replace political appointment of judges? No, not just at the moment, I don't. But it seems to me that there must be a better, less partisan way to do it.
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Offline FJAG

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #60 on: July 20, 2018, 14:43:39 »
I've never been comfortable with the idea of the politicization of the judiciary, (Left or Right), which is what we seem to get from having political parties and their funders get involved in the process. To me it seems to go totally against the idea of a truly independent judiciary, since their appointments are so clearly done to further the agenda of the party with the power to appoint.

I have a hard time seeing what it is in politicians that makes them capable of divining if a judge is any good or not, as opposed to just being "reliable and useful"

I can't say that electing them is any better: IMHO that's just another form of politicization. I once heard a judge in the US comment that to pass a particular judgement would be "suicide for my political career". What is the functional difference between that and judges being swayed by popular opinion, rather than by the rule and spirit of the law?

Do I know how to replace political appointment of judges? No, not just at the moment, I don't. But it seems to me that there must be a better, less partisan way to do it.

I agree that electing judges is just another way of having mob rule.

Our processes are better in that judges, once appointed, have tenure of office for life and are no longer beholding to anyone for their job (barring misconduct complaints and hearings)

There is no question that the various existing processes bend appointment in favour of an individual whose broad political leanings are in line with that of the appointing party. Initial vetting and shortlisting is much more nonpartisan, however, and therefore candidates brought before the politicians for selection are at least qualified and considered capable of doing the job.

We do have one major advantage. Our constitution and human rights legislation are more expansive and malleable which allows legal principles to grow and expand to match society's growth both in the way that legislatures deal with it as well as the judges. What's more, if legislatures are adamant that judges are being too proactive, they can also use the "Notwithstanding" clause. In the US the trait of the "originalism" hamstrings the Constitution to interpretations that do not take changes in society into account.

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Offline Colin P

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #61 on: July 20, 2018, 15:14:11 »
I can bet all those people who are pro-abortion and think things should be science based, might get a little uncomfortable with apply science to the determination of the beginning of life. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/07/180712141653.htm?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #62 on: July 20, 2018, 22:19:53 »
The purpose of a constitution is to fence in government, preferably with no recourse but amendment.  I prefer things to be stated in terms like "Congress shall make no law...", with no weasel clauses ("notwithstanding", "reasonable limits").
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

"It is a damned heavy blow; but whining don't help."

Despair is a sin.

Offline pbi

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #63 on: July 21, 2018, 07:21:48 »
I can bet all those people who are pro-abortion and think things should be science based, might get a little uncomfortable with apply science to the determination of the beginning of life. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/07/180712141653.htm?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

But what if you're pro-science but anti-abortion? You know, one of those inconvenient people who don't fit stereotypes? :whistle:

If you're referring to this paragraph:

Quote
The beginning of life

Furthermore, the knowledge from this paper might impact legislation. In some countries, the law states that human life begins -- and is thus protected -- when the maternal and paternal nuclei fuse after fertilisation. If it turns out that the dual spindle process works the same in humans, this definition is not fully accurate, as the union in one nucleus happens slightly later, after the first cell division.



what that seems to say (as far as I can tell), is that full conception occurs later than what some pro-life laws assume.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 07:27:21 by pbi »
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Online YZT580

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #64 on: July 21, 2018, 09:56:36 »
Fertilisation, including that first cell division, occurs within a day and a half of impregnation.  So the only questionable 'abortion' effected would be the morning after pill.  (http://www.embryology.ch/anglais/dbefruchtung/zygote03.html  The mitotic spindle divides the chromosomes that have just been brought together into the two first cells of the embryo. This proceeding towards the two-cell stage occurs on average between 22 and 26 hours after fertilization.) 


Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #65 on: July 21, 2018, 12:00:48 »
I'd characterize the problem as one of deciding when person-hood is granted, not when life begins.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

"It is a damned heavy blow; but whining don't help."

Despair is a sin.

Offline pbi

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #66 on: July 21, 2018, 14:07:57 »
I'd characterize the problem as one of deciding when person-hood is granted, not when life begins.
That is a good and important question. I used to be 100% pro-abortion, no questions. Now, I'm not so sure any more. To me, I guess the issue is for the mother (or mother and father) to ask themselves if they can live with the knowledge of ending a life.I don't agree with forcing women to have children against their will, but I don't believe that abortion should be the go-to for contraception. Rape, incest, or medical issues: I get that. But is abortion really needed as a form of contraception anymore, with all the options out there?
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Offline Altair

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #67 on: July 21, 2018, 14:26:34 »
That is a good and important question. I used to be 100% pro-abortion, no questions. Now, I'm not so sure any more. To me, I guess the issue is for the mother (or mother and father) to ask themselves if they can live with the knowledge of ending a life.I don't agree with forcing women to have children against their will, but I don't believe that abortion should be the go-to for contraception. Rape, incest, or medical issues: I get that. But is abortion really needed as a form of contraception anymore, with all the options out there?
medical issues is what gets me.

After a perfectly healthy pregnancy my wife developed preeclampsia and other complications during labour,  and suffered a lot of blood loss and was hospitalized for a week.

The act of giving birth can always go sideways,  and there are always going to be risks involved

I am leery of forcing a woman to go through the stresses of childbirth and labour against their will
Someday I'll care about milpoints.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #68 on: July 21, 2018, 15:08:30 »
Fjag

You may have a less contentious response if you stopped equating the demos and the mob.

Personally my solution to the appointment of judges is to have them created by various mobs of various cultures.  I am not opposed to an Islamic JP steeped in Sharia law if he or she recognizes that the law being adjudicated is parliament's law.

I am not impressed by all law being adjudicated by the mob of lawyers.

 ;D
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Offline Colin P

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #69 on: July 21, 2018, 21:25:41 »
medical issues is what gets me.

After a perfectly healthy pregnancy my wife developed preeclampsia and other complications during labour,  and suffered a lot of blood loss and was hospitalized for a week.

The act of giving birth can always go sideways,  and there are always going to be risks involved

I am leery of forcing a woman to go through the stresses of childbirth and labour against their will

I suspect most Canadians would accept abortion up to about the 1st trimester, a smaller portion to the 2nd trimester. A video of an abortion in the third trimester would convince the majority not to support it. With only a doctors advice saying that the life of the mother is at stake. If life is deemed to begin earlier than current laws allow, both the mother and father would be on the hook to provide care and support earlier on as well.

Offline FJAG

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #70 on: July 21, 2018, 22:19:55 »
Fjag

You may have a less contentious response if you stopped equating the demos and the mob.

Personally my solution to the appointment of judges is to have them created by various mobs of various cultures.  I am not opposed to an Islamic JP steeped in Sharia law if he or she recognizes that the law being adjudicated is parliament's law.

I am not impressed by all law being adjudicated by the mob of lawyers.

 ;D

The concept of Tyranny of the majority has been well understood ever since democracies became fashionable and particularly in the early years of the US Republic.

Quote
While James Madison referred to the same idea as "the violence of majority faction" in The Federalist Papers, for example Federalist 10, the phrase "tyranny of the majority" was used by John Adams in 1788.[8] It was also used by Edmund Burke in Reflections on the Revolution in France (1790), where he said that "The tyranny of a multitude is a multiplied tyranny." It was further popularised by John Stuart Mill in On Liberty (1859). The Federalist Papers and the phrase (in translation) is used at least once in the first sequel to Human, All Too Human (1879).[9] Ayn Rand wrote that individual rights are not subject to a public vote, and that the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities and "the smallest minority on earth is the individual".[10]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

Quote
Democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51% of the people may take away the rights of the other 49%. Attributed to Thomas Jefferson

Law is not adjudicated in this country by a mob of lawyers but by way of the Rule of Law which is established by democratically elected legislatures, limited by an overarching constitution and Code of Human Rights, which is presented and argued by lawyers before an independent and impartial judiciary. That works for me.

The problem with an unfettered electorate is that it only works for you as an individual so long as you are a member of the majority and as long as the majority reflects your personal beliefs. Think back in history for examples where minorities were oppressed and exterminated by democratically elected governments (Germany, Italy and any number of Islamic republics) and then consider that in California in 2008 the majority of the electorate by way of two referendums legislated for humane treatment rights to chickens (Prop 2) and at the same time directed a constitutional amendment to make gay and lesbian marriage illegal (Prop 8 and thereby overruling a California Supreme Court ruling which had made it legal)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_2_(2008)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008)

I'm simply not impressed by unfettered democracies, even ones where I'm a member of the majority cultural group.  I'm not sure that a Constitution is the answer in every case either. See for example Iran's who's article 1 states:

Quote
Article 1: The government of Iran is an Islamic Republic, which the nation of Iran based on its long-held belief in the rule of the truth and the justice of the Qu’ran, and after its victorious Islamic revolution, under the leadership of marja’-e taqlīd the exalted Grand Ayatollah Imam Khomeini, has established. The measure was ratified by the 98.2 percent affirmative vote of all the eligible voters in a referendum that was held on the 10th and the 11th of Farvardīn in the year 1358 of the solar Islamic calendar, agnate to the first and the second of jumādī al-awlā’ in the year 1399 of the lunar Islamic calendar.

I've grown quite fond of our system. It's got some warts on it but all in all I think it beats out most everything else out there. But then I was a lawyer. ;D

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Offline pbi

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #71 on: July 22, 2018, 08:32:50 »
Fjag

...I am not impressed by all law being adjudicated by the mob of lawyers...

 ;D

But who else is better than a person who has been schooled in the law and its underpinnings, practices it regularly and has a strong working understanding of how it has been historically applied? By way of analogy, do you want complex engineering decisions, or medical decisions, made by people who have no background in those fields? Do you want your house wired by a plumber?

I have never fully agreed with the JP system, having known a couple of JPs who I would have thought were not well-suited to the job at all. I understand that JPs will not handle serious cases, but I still find it odd. I would be even less inclined to support a Sharia JP, with no grounding in English Common law (even to the limited extent that a JP might have).

The laws which lawyers and judges study and adjudicate are created and passed into force by politicians, (whether or not they really understand what impact a given law will have a few years down range). The setting of general policy direction, or the response to public feelings, are rightly in the purview of politicians. But that, I think, is where it stops.

Other than that, I prefer to leave the adjudication of the law to people who know what they're talking about.
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The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out...

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #72 on: July 22, 2018, 11:41:41 »
I take the point on tyranny of the majority.

And you are free to argue the benefits of alternative systems.... But in the interests of clarity would it not be better to refer to the alternatives as something other than democracy?

And wrt the JP  system my understanding was that they were lay arbitrators with more in common with members of a jury than with judges.

Do all arbitrators have to be judges?  Or even lawyers?  Or do they just need to enjoy the respect of all parties?
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #73 on: July 22, 2018, 13:57:36 »
People making judgements must know the rules, and know them well.  Contract law and related mediation and arbitration are just about the last place I welcome talented amateurs.  What vexes me, and degrades the legal profession, are fanciful theories created to bypass unambiguous statements in plain English, usually involving "shall" or "shall not".  Close second: passages inserted to provide potential loopholes through "shall" or "shall not".

>See for example Iran's who's article 1 states:

Citing a particularly egregious example doesn't particularly challenge the value of a constitution among people who are disposed to respect a constitution.

A quotation attributed to John Adams: "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

It should be obvious that everything in law depends on the culture it serves.  A people could have the most carefully crafted coherent body of law ever known, adjudicated by a multitude of polymaths with photographic memory, and would still not have much law if they chose to ignore and work around it.

We (western cultures in general) are on pretty good ground culturally.  Where I see the weak link is in the sub-strata who are well into or above the fourth level in Maslow's hierarchy, and can't wholly internalize their personal quest - they are a meddlesome, self-righteous bunch.
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Despair is a sin.

Offline FJAG

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Re: SCC and Trinity Western University
« Reply #74 on: July 22, 2018, 16:12:29 »
I take the point on tyranny of the majority.

And you are free to argue the benefits of alternative systems.... But in the interests of clarity would it not be better to refer to the alternatives as something other than democracy?

And wrt the JP  system my understanding was that they were lay arbitrators with more in common with members of a jury than with judges.

Do all arbitrators have to be judges?  Or even lawyers?  Or do they just need to enjoy the respect of all parties?

Just to address the Justice of the Peace issue (I think the vast bulk of us here support the democratic system and constitutions although we may argue the finer points) JP's vary widely (and wildly) by jurisdiction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_of_the_peace

Arbitration also varies depending on the jurisdiction and the subject matter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitration

At the heart of any judicial or quasi-judicial system is that it is a form of dispute resolution. Disputes are either ones between the citizen and the state (which deal with such matters as crimes or regulatory infractions) or ones between citizens (including corporations) and other citizens.

In either field the continuum of disputes varies from low levels (e.g. low sums of money or punishments involved) to high level (e.g. gigantic sums of money or prison or death penalties)

The British model justice system (like ours and the US's) is one where it is assumed that there are at least two different interests involved and that the best way to resolve the issue is to allow each side of the dispute to argue their case in front of an impartial decision maker. We call this an "adversarial" system. Generally the decision maker allows the opposing parties to call the relevant evidence and make their arguments and then makes a decision based on the facts and law presented (The other major system is the "inquisitorial" system - such as in Europe's civil law countries - where judges plays a much more active role in questioning witnesses and controlling police investigations)

All of that is to say that in our system there is scope for a wide variety of forums and procedures from the very simple, where legal training is not essential, to the very complex, where either legal training or a high level of subject matter expertise is called for if not essential (as an example commercial arbitration is done outside of the state court systems using both subject matter experts and/or retired judges).

North American lawyers are trained in the operation of the adversarial system as well as the law and as such they are more suitable than the average lay person to be advocates and decision makers in disputes. That said there are very many capable lay people who can operate as decision makers in the appropriate forum. What is very important IMHO is that such forums must be governed by rules and procedures and be accountable for their decisions through some form of appeal process. (as a worst case example are the numerous tribal/village councils in Pakistan and India who try serious a wide variety of disputes and who have made such ludicrous decisions as where the punishment for a man raping a women is to allow the the rape victim's male relatives to rape the rapist's sister http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-pakistan-revenge-rape-20170727-story.html)

 :cheers:
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