Author Topic: US versus NATO  (Read 25514 times)

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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: US versus NATO
« Reply #350 on: July 18, 2018, 20:33:38 »
Before leaping triumphantly into yet another game of "Trump is such a fool" (easy to play), it's worth considering if his mind really understands the distinction between Hillary's (single - perhaps redundant pair) "email server" and the DNC's servers, particularly while he is extemporizing.  His ignorance isn't excusable, but it's a waste of time to analyze basic ignorance - an exercise in GIGO.
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: US versus NATO
« Reply #351 on: July 18, 2018, 21:09:42 »
How many people actually understand the difference between a single server and distributed server (cloud) solutions? To hammer Trump for that of all things is just ridiculous.

Offline Altair

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Re: US versus NATO
« Reply #352 on: July 18, 2018, 21:15:45 »
How many people actually understand the difference between a single server and distributed server (cloud) solutions? To hammer Trump for that of all things is just ridiculous.
Yes and no.

For any one individual to not understand the nuances and complexities of that is understandable.

But...isn't this the president of the united states? Could he not ask for a briefing with some of the greatest minds America has to offer on the subject?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 21:36:20 by Altair »
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Re: US versus NATO
« Reply #353 on: July 18, 2018, 21:32:08 »
He's not the Manchurian Candidate, with an army of speech writers crafting his every single word. The reason he appealed to the rust belt states that carried him to the presidency was that he was willing to fire from the hip and not sound like a political robot. Realistically what does a briefing on how distributed servers work bring to the discussion? Its a red herring.

Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: US versus NATO
« Reply #354 on: July 19, 2018, 11:41:01 »
How many people actually understand the difference between a single server and distributed server (cloud) solutions? To hammer Trump for that of all things is just ridiculous.

The purpose of the article was not to explain the differences between different types of servers, but to point out the fact that contrary to what the POTUS has been saying the FBI did examine the DNC servers.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: US versus NATO
« Reply #355 on: July 19, 2018, 17:45:03 »
Yes and no.

For any one individual to not understand the nuances and complexities of that is understandable.

But...isn't this the president of the united states? Could he not ask for a briefing with some of the greatest minds America has to offer on the subject?

Have you ever seen a Briefing note? They are set to a particular style, generally 3 pages at most, point form and the information has been massaged by multiple staffers, many that have no clue what they are editing. I always suggest keeping a copy of the draft briefing note, so if things go sideways, you can point out that you did provide the pertinent information, but it was edited out along the way. Also keep a copy of the final briefing note if you get a copy, because chances are you get asked for it again in 3 months, as they have longed forgotten it was already been done. 

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: US versus NATO
« Reply #356 on: July 19, 2018, 18:25:12 »
Have you ever seen a Briefing note? They are set to a particular style, generally 3 pages at most, point form and the information has been massaged by multiple staffers, many that have no clue what they are editing. I always suggest keeping a copy of the draft briefing note, so if things go sideways, you can point out that you did provide the pertinent information, but it was edited out along the way. Also keep a copy of the final briefing note if you get a copy, because chances are you get asked for it again in 3 months, as they have longed forgotten it was already been done.

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Online Remius

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Re: US versus NATO
« Reply #357 on: July 19, 2018, 18:55:34 »
Have you ever seen a Briefing note? They are set to a particular style, generally 3 pages at most, point form and the information has been massaged by multiple staffers, many that have no clue what they are editing. I always suggest keeping a copy of the draft briefing note, so if things go sideways, you can point out that you did provide the pertinent information, but it was edited out along the way. Also keep a copy of the final briefing note if you get a copy, because chances are you get asked for it again in 3 months, as they have longed forgotten it was already been done.

Quoted for truth.  My very first task in the PS was to get a briefing note up to the DM about a stupid cake for an event the ADM was attending.  11 weeks later it went through so many changes at every level asking for changes to wording etc etc.  The final version was exactly the same as my first version.   :brickwall:
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Offline FJAG

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Re: US versus NATO
« Reply #358 on: July 19, 2018, 19:17:16 »
Quoted for truth.  My very first task in the PS was to get a briefing note up to the DM about a stupid cake for an event the ADM was attending.  11 weeks later it went through so many changes at every level asking for changes to wording etc etc.  The final version was exactly the same as my first version.   :brickwall:

A sure sign that there are entirely too many staff officers/managers in the chain of command/hierarchy with entirely too much time on their hands.

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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: US versus NATO
« Reply #359 on: August 10, 2018, 07:24:19 »
Bolton is doing great work. I don't know how accurate the article is because msn tends to be anti-administration.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-officials-scrambled-behind-the-scenes-to-shield-nato-deal-from-trump/ar-BBLILmn?ocid=spartanntp   
 
U.S. Officials Scrambled Behind the Scenes to Shield NATO Deal From Trump

Offline Journeyman

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Re: US versus NATO
« Reply #360 on: August 10, 2018, 08:26:37 »
Quote
U.S. Officials Scrambled Behind the Scenes to Shield NATO Deal From Trump

Fearful of a repeat of the G-7 disaster ....Two senior European officials said Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and Defense Secretary Jim Mattis were also keen to avoid another confrontation similar to the G-7, and the NATO declaration was completed days before leaders set foot in Brussels.
Not Bolton alone;  it looks like there was some unity of purpose amongst the WH staff.

Offline Thucydides

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Re: US versus NATO
« Reply #361 on: August 10, 2018, 09:42:58 »
Bolton is doing great work. I don't know how accurate the article is because msn tends to be anti-administration.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-officials-scrambled-behind-the-scenes-to-shield-nato-deal-from-trump/ar-BBLILmn?ocid=spartanntp   
 
U.S. Officials Scrambled Behind the Scenes to Shield NATO Deal From Trump

I'll ask a pertinent question here: did this declaration advance President Trump's stated aims and goals? Increased spending and readiness, 30 brigades, 30 air wings and on 30 days notice seem to be in line with the President's stated goals. Maybe this is just another example of saying one thing in public to apply pressure and seeing results of that pressure outside of the limelight.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Online Blackadder1916

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Re: US versus NATO
« Reply #362 on: August 10, 2018, 10:43:43 »
I'll ask a pertinent question here: did this declaration advance President Trump's stated aims and goals? Increased spending and readiness, 30 brigades, 30 air wings and on 30 days notice seem to be in line with the President's stated goals. Maybe this is just another example of saying one thing in public to apply pressure and seeing results of that pressure outside of the limelight.

What is your reference for the numbers?  From what I've seen the  “Four Thirties" are battalions not brigades and squadrons not wings.  From the Brussels Summit Declaration.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_156624.htm
Quote
14.  We also continue to reinvigorate our culture of readiness.  As part of our efforts, Allies continue to ensure that NATO has the full range of capabilities and forces that are trained, interoperable, deployable, and ready to meet all Alliance requirements.  Furthermore, today, we have agreed to launch a NATO Readiness Initiative.  It will ensure that more high-quality, combat-capable national forces at high readiness can be made available to NATO.  From within the overall pool of forces, Allies will offer an additional 30 major naval combatants, 30 heavy or medium manoeuvre battalions, and 30 kinetic air squadrons, with enabling forces, at 30 days’ readiness or less.  They will be organised and trained as elements of larger combat formations, in support of NATO’s overall deterrence and defence posture.  The NATO Readiness Initiative will further enhance the Alliance’s rapid response capability, either for reinforcement of Allies in support of deterrence or collective defence, including for high-intensity warfighting, or for rapid military crisis intervention, if required.  It will also promote the importance of effective combined arms and joint operations.

I suppose one could judge the relative importance of an initiative by where it is placed in an announcement.  Paragraph 14 of a 79 paragraph declaration can't be all bad, but the short word on the NATO Readiness Initiative is . . .

https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/pdf_2018_06/20180608_1806-NATO-Readiness-Initiative_en.pdf
Quote
The initiative aims to enhance the readiness of existing national forces,
and their ability to move within Europe and across the Atlantic – in
response to a more unpredictable security environment.

This is not about new forces but about increasing the readiness of forces
Allies already have – forces that could be made available for collective
defence and crisis response operations.

And of course, unless one has the number of currently available units (from all NATO countries including the USA) who are on 30 day readiness, a comparison can't be made.
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: US versus NATO
« Reply #363 on: August 10, 2018, 13:43:08 »
I see I misread the size of the formations.

We still see NATO moving (or being moved) towards the vision President Trump has been articulating, weather the media chooses to acknowledge this or not. My feeling is there is a lot of smoke covering the actual activity happening behind the scenes in this and many other areas.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Online Blackadder1916

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Re: US versus NATO
« Reply #364 on: August 10, 2018, 15:11:50 »

. . .  the vision President Trump has been articulating, . . .

I sorry, but somehow "vision" and "articulating" are not words I associate with President Trump.  Of course, his message may be lost in his bombastic manner but the only thing that gets through seems to be "freeloaders" and "me, me, me".  But not wanting to get into the all too common argument about the worth or worthlessness of Mr. Trump's approach to diplomacy, I'll just give my view of what is happening with NATO.  They are continuing on the same path that they started on long before the possibility of a Trump presidency was contemplated.  There have been some refinements to account for the turmoil of Trump but most of these changes are perhaps a direct response to Russia.  It is likely that some of the Russia response is also due to a feeling that the current US president is a little too cozy with the Russian president.  It wouldn't surprise me that the pre-summit negotiations that resulted in the agreed declaration were as much representative of the opinions of the senior members of the US security team, i.e. Bolton, Mattis, et al.

While the Brussels Summit Declaration is not an easily read, concise document, some impressions can be gleaned from its organization.  In its 79 paragraphs, it starts off with some general comments in para 1 about the organization and its goals.  Para 3 affirms the Wales agreement, i.e. 2% defense spending.  Then paras 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 specifically are aimed at Russia as the threat to NATO, its member states and partners and generally Russia as a threat to world peace - para 8 does deal with the possibility of negotiating with Russia favourably but para 9 sets it in its place as being historically untrustworthy.  Paras 10 and 11 deal with the terrorism threat.  Paras 12 and 13 are essentially a preamble to a discussion of the changes/initiatives that NATO are already undertaking or have agreed to.  Para 14, as I quoted in my previous post, deals with the NATO Readiness Initiative.  There really is little new other than some reorganization that (in my opinion) is almost a message to Russia of "don't frig with us".  But it is a subtle message, maybe because it was released prior to Mr. Trump's meeting with Mr. Putin and they had to take into account the personality of the president.

As for the NATO Readiness Initiative (Four Thirties), it seems that not only is for existing forces (no new troops) the numbers appear to be based on the total of NATO elements on 30 days readiness and would not be in addition to any existing forces with a short readiness period.
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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: US versus NATO
« Reply #365 on: August 10, 2018, 15:35:09 »
Can we not discuss this without the usual bashing of President Trump ? I think he has made progress on the issue of every member paying their fair share. I haven't seen members quitting the alliance. Afterall its in the best interest of Europe to be strong and vigilant.

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: US versus NATO
« Reply #366 on: August 11, 2018, 00:06:06 »
An interesting piece by strategypage on the neglect faced by European forces in NATO. Essentially money and readiness go hand in hand.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htlead/articles/20180806.aspx