Author Topic: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad  (Read 19747 times)

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Offline boot12

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Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #100 on: March 07, 2019, 00:06:53 »
The Norwegians are undoubtedly struggling with the interrelated problem of recruitment/retention/training/experience/expertise. This is a complicated question which is likely affecting all navies to some extent, including our own.

To your point - have a read of this article.  I cannot comment on the validity of the information.

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/11/22/gender-politics-and-sinking-of-knm-helge-ingstad.html

That said, the above blog post (I hesitate to call it an article) first made the rounds shortly after the incident and is really just a load of unsubstantiated garbage which invents "evidence" to support the author's predetermined sexist conclusions.

If you read the comments on the original blog post (strategic-culture is just a re-host) you'll quickly wade into a cesspool of misogyny, red-pilling and bizarre speculation about menstrual cycles. From a quick Google search of the article title it appears that the post got the majority of its traction elsewhere on the internet on various right wing blogs and forums looking to take a regressive stance on the role of women in modern society.

The only data point it draws on is a public affairs article written at least a year prior to the incident, which is a long time in a typical ship's posting cycle. From experience, low female representation in highly skilled positions within the RCN is a recruitment issue vice a talent one. Women who enrol and enter the system as NWOs experience no significant difference in success rate in training or on operations than their male colleagues. Norway's use of conscription likely addresses the enrolment challenge to some extent, making it unsurprising that their ships have women employed in demanding positions.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #101 on: March 07, 2019, 00:42:35 »
I have served on ships with female bridge officers and found them to be fine. The biggest issue with woman on a ship or in the camp is the younger ones who occupy non-management jobs and are busy enjoying a high male to female environment and causing havoc while they do it. I have also seen where a more maternal women even at these lower end jobs can have a very beneficial effect by providing good advice and demanding a certain level of decorum. 

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #102 on: March 07, 2019, 07:03:21 »
That article is just drivel.

There are very few things going on in a warship today that require brute strength, where the average male would have an advantage over the average female. None of those few things relate to any of the watch keeping activities. These require knowledge, skill and experience - things found equally in both male and female (and any other identity of your liking  ;)).

There is, however, an aspect of the H.I. incident that I have not seen mentioned anywhere and is pretty typical of all navies: Homeward Bound Syndrome. The ship was coming back from a large NATO exercise, the crew had worked hard for a few weeks, going through war like drills and had performed well. There was feeling of "invincibility" from having survived that, etc. etc. Then, you are going home back to family and friend. It's night, there are no drills planned, just a few hours and you are there, it's your home waters you know like the back of your hand and you've been there a hundred times. In those circumstances, the atmosphere on the bridge is relaxed, almost idyllic, everybody is smiling and the minds are wandering. And the crew on the bridge fails to assess the situation properly and disaster strike.

The syndrome is real and all who have sailed in warship know it. Personally, I always made sure I was on the bridge for the last 50 to 100 N.M. of such a return home. I always claimed (for my OOW's consumption) that it was because I just wanted to enjoy the last bit of home waters. It was actually because I knew the crew relaxed too much sometimes at the end like that.

Offline IN ARDUA NITOR

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Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #103 on: March 07, 2019, 07:58:31 »

The syndrome is real and all who have sailed in warship know it. Personally, I always made sure I was on the bridge for the last 50 to 100 N.M. of such a return home. I always claimed (for my OOW's consumption) that it was because I just wanted to enjoy the last bit of home waters. It was actually because I knew the crew relaxed too much sometimes at the end like that.

Every time we returned home I would do the same - on each occasion in my night orders is written "call me 30 minutes prior to entering the traffic lanes IVO Buoy J" - often the XO and I would enjoy a coffee or six on the bridge (or on the gun deck in summer months) to reminisce about the delpoyment/ex and to provide that little extra oversight. It proved a prescient measure on almost every occasion (particularly during open fishery windows)

Online Good2Golf

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Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #104 on: March 07, 2019, 13:22:46 »
The Air Force calls it “get home-itis...”  People have died because of it.  It can be unforgiving...the crew were lucky that night.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #105 on: March 07, 2019, 14:02:05 »
The Air Force calls it “get home-itis...”  People have died because of it.  It can be unforgiving...the crew were lucky that night.

That is a brilliantly apt term  :nod:
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Uzlu

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Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #106 on: April 03, 2019, 08:14:39 »
Quote
Three face blame for frigate collision

No charges have been filed yet, but the police investigation into the spectacular collision between a Norwegian frigate and an oil tanker last fall is now targeting three people. They’re all believed to have played “central roles” in the maritime drama.

“These are the three who were responsible for the three entities involved,” Ole Bjørn Mevatne, prosecutor for the West Police District that’s responsible for the investigation, told Norwegian Broadcasting (NRK). The three entities include the frigate KNM Helge Ingstad, the tanker Sola TS and the marine traffic station at Fedje, which was responsible for monitoring vessel movements in the area northwest of Bergen where the collision occurred in the early morning hours of November 8.

Metvatne’s comments came just after the state accident investigations board (Havarikommisjonen), which is responsible for determining the cause of the collision, conducted a re-enactment of the collision earlier this week. It involved the police, state oil company Equinor of the terminal from which the tanker was departing, the coastal administration agency Kystverket and the Norwegian Navy.

Navigation rules violated
The people now officially viewed as suspected of contributing to the collision include the pilot on board the tanker Sola TS, the duty chief on the bridge of the frigate and the man who was on duty at Fedje and responsible for monitoring traffic in the area.

Mevatne told NRK that the pilot is suspected of violating navigation regulations regarding how the tanker was lying in the water while sailing fully loaded from the Sture oil terminal, and whether the pilot issued the correct signals to the frigate sailing towards the tanker. Tapes of urgent conversations between the tanker and the frigate reveal how the pilot was desperately trying to get the frigate to turn as it sailed towards the tanker at high speed, but the frigate did not respond quickly enough. A preliminary report from the accident investigation board revealed that the frigate’s crew seemed confused by the lights of both the terminal and the tanker, and mistook the tanker for being part of the terminal itself.

The crew on the bridge of the frigate had just undergone a duty shift. The duty officer in charge of the bridge was also responsible for the seven crew members on the bridge in connection with the collision. “Navigation regulations also play a role here, along with whether those on the bridge were negligent and caused the collision that could have led to loss of life,” Mevatne told NRK.

The man monitoring marine traffic in the fjord that night is suspected of dereliction of duty. “He had independent responsibility as traffic leader in the area,” Mevatne said. “Fedje (the traffic station) is supposed to serve like traffic police in the area.” There was an apparent lack of response, however, to how the frigate, which was returning to its home port in Bergen from participation in NATO exercises last fall, and the tanker were on a collision course.

‘No comment’
The duty chief on the frigate refused to comment, referring all questions to the defense department (Forsvaret), which also declined comment on the suspicions or whether the collision has had any consequences for the duty chief’s position and daily work.

The head of the Fedje traffic station, Arnt Runar Sævrøy, said they were aware that one of their employees was under suspicion. “This isn’t new to us,” he told NRK. “Other than that, we have no comment.” A defense attorney has been appointed for the pilot on board the tanker, who also had no further comment.

Defense Minister Frank Bakke-Jensen, who has political responsibility for the Norwegian Navy, has also declined comment on who was to blame for the collision. He has chosen instead to praise the frigate crew’s quick evacuation of the vessel before it sank, and express relief that no lives were lost.

The captain of the frigate was sleeping at the time and both he and the frigate’s crew have been shielded by the Navy. The captain recently broke his silence and offered his version of events, but was not on the bridge at the time of the collision.
https://www.newsinenglish.no/2019/04/03/three-targeted-in-frigate-collision/

Offline Uzlu

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Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #107 on: May 14, 2019, 14:47:48 »
Quote
'Cheaper to Buy a New One': Norway Discovers Sunken Frigate's True Repair Costs

Although raised and set afloat after four months underwater, the frigate Helge Ingstad, which sank following NATO drills in late 2018, is far from operational and still demands enormous investments.

Repairing the frigate KNM Helge Ingstad will cost over NOK 12 billion ($1.37 billion), which is three times as much as its original cost, the newspaper Bergens Tidende reported.

"The cost of repairing the frigate will exceed NOK 12 billion. Building a new one will be cheaper", the damage assessment to be presented on Wednesday said.

Norwegian Defence Materiel Agency communications adviser Vigdis Hvaal said that no comments will be issued until the Wednesday condition report, which will determine the frigate's future.

It set the Norwegian military budget back NOK 4.3 billion (almost $500 million) to buy the frigate. The ship was delivered in 2009. The costs of the Helge Ingstad's replacement haven't been estimated yet, but the defence department reckons that ordering several ships at once will be much cheaper, as restarting production for just one ship could result in a disproportionately high per ship cost.

"When you talk about the costs associated with building a new frigate, it is important to remember that building just one is far more expensive than building more", the Norwegian Defence Materiel Agency concluded.

The price for a new frigate is expected to be lower than the cost of repair.

In their annual report, the Armed Forces wrote that it is relevant to consider re-using the details for remaining vessels or sell the steel.

The loss of the KNM Helge Ingstad has left Norway's defence capability weakened, adding an extra burden on the four remaining frigates.

"The accident will affect the Armed Forces' operational ability, deliveries and preparedness", the Armed Forces admitted.

The Helge Ingstad collided with the Maltese-flagged tanker Sola in November of last year while heading back after the major NATO exercise Trident Juncture, billed as the largest on Norwegian soil in decades. While some of the 137-member crew sustained light injuries, the frigate suffered a 45-metre-long gash on its starboard and went down shortly after. The tanker, by contrast, emerged from the collision with only minor damage and is back in service.

The frigate remained underwater for almost four months before it was raised and transported to Haakonsvern in Bergen. On 10 April, the frigate was relaunched after the gash was plugged using steel plates. So far, rescuing, salvaging and transporting costs associated with the accident cost NOK 726 million ($83 million), according to the 2018 Armed Forces annual report.
https://sputniknews.com/military/201905141074987978-norway-frigate-repair-cost/

Offline Colin P

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Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #108 on: May 15, 2019, 12:23:45 »
I doubt anyone with ship experience is surprised, strip it of valuable metals, hatches and possible modules, like the Bridge, bow etc as spares and training aids.

Online Navy_Pete

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Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #109 on: May 15, 2019, 18:33:20 »
I know when we looked at pulling sections of the ships for training aids, realized it was actually cheaper to build a structure from scratch then do pull it apart to make a bridge, RAS station trainer, etc.

Awesome way to get diesels, pumps and motors for training; great to have a real set that you can practice pulling it apart and reassembling. The big valves are probably salvageable with some minor overhaul, but anything smaller or with electronics is probably scrap.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #110 on: May 17, 2019, 19:03:18 »
I know when we looked at pulling sections of the ships for training aids, realized it was actually cheaper to build a structure from scratch then do pull it apart to make a bridge, RAS station trainer, etc.

Awesome way to get diesels, pumps and motors for training; great to have a real set that you can practice pulling it apart and reassembling. The big valves are probably salvageable with some minor overhaul, but anything smaller or with electronics is probably scrap.

We could use another recreational dive site in BC. Maybe the Artificial Reef Society could take it off their hands for a dollar? :)
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Colin P

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Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #111 on: May 17, 2019, 22:02:22 »
I am going to go with them to look at a ship in a couple of weeks, I mention it to them :)

Offline Uzlu

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Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #112 on: June 22, 2019, 06:38:21 »
Quote
Norway to discard sunken navy frigate due to cost consideration

OSLO, June 21 (Xinhua) -- Norway said on Friday that due to cost consideration and uncertainty in reparation, it would discard its damaged KNM Helge Ingstad navy frigate that sank after colliding with an oil tanker off its western coast last year.

"The government has now decided that it is more appropriate to dispose of KNM Helge Ingstad than to repair it," Norwegian Minister of Defense Frank Bakke-Jensen said in a statement.

According to the Ministry of Defense, the cost of reparation was estimated to be between 12 billion kroner (1.4 billion U.S. dollars) and 14 billion kroner (1.6 billion U.S. dollars), while building a similar vessel would cost 11-13 billion kroner.

Bakke-Jensen said the disposal of the navy frigate will have significant consequences for Norway's defense.

"We have large sea areas and a long coastline. Good control at sea is absolutely essential in the defense of the country. Therefore, we have been aware all the way that the capacity represented by KNM Helge Ingstad must be re-established," he said.

The ministry will therefore search for military advice from Norwegian Chief of Defense Haakon Bruun-Hanssen on how the operational capacity can be replaced, Bakke-Jensen said.

Meanwhile, the Armed Forces have already implemented measures to maintain operational capability in the short term, including the use of double crews on the other vessels in operation.

The Norwegian navy's frigate KNM Helge Ingstad collided with the Malta-registered oil tanker Sola TS on Nov. 8. near Bergen, Norway.

In late November, investigators ruled out technical errors in the collision, saying the "preliminary assessment is that the accident was not caused by any single act or event, but can be explained by a series of interacting complex factors and circumstances."

In late February, Norway started the operation to raise the sunken KNM Helge Ingstad frigate and the vessel arrived at the Haakonsvern naval base in early March. (1 U.S. dollar = 8.56 Norwegian kroner)
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-06/22/c_138163210.htm

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #113 on: June 22, 2019, 08:39:37 »
Is it normal that it would cost less to build a new ship than it would float one back to the surface and fix it?
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #114 on: June 22, 2019, 09:46:27 »
Is it normal that it would cost less to build a new ship than it would float one back to the surface and fix it?

Absolutely. After that long a soak in salt water, virtually everything would have to be stripped from the hull and replaced. It would be a nightmare to control corrosion in places salt water was never intended to go.

In this case, it is easier to start with a new build.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #115 on: June 22, 2019, 10:01:50 »
Ahh, ha. Yes salt water. Embarrassingly overlooked that.
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