Author Topic: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks  (Read 6524 times)

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Offline FSTO

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Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« on: March 07, 2020, 09:05:53 »
Don't know if this is top of mind for females in the RCN?

https://tnc.news/2020/03/06/navy-considering-gender-neutral-alternative-to-junior-seaman-ranks/

Although I'd be okay with Ordinary Rate, Able Rate, Killick and Master Killick.

Or Ordinary (insert trade here), ABN (for Able Bosn)

One wag wants to use Sailor - Ordinary Sailor, Able Sailor, Leading Sailor, Master Sailor. I don't know but to me it sounds kind of dumb.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2020, 09:17:26 »
"Able" is offensive towards the disabled. It's gotta go.

Not comfortable with "master" or "chief" in ranks either.

Are you listening RCN?
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2020, 09:18:27 »
I think we just need to use the Reddit progression.

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Re: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2020, 09:19:28 »
Agreed in that sailor sounds kind of odd.  It'd be like putting "soldier" in an army rank.

I like the term Rate.  It's got a historical appeal.
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Offline Journeyman

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Re: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2020, 09:20:25 »
We have to start with the basics;  the term "huMAN being" is so  offensive!    :waiting:

Offline FSTO

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Re: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2020, 09:28:53 »
My daughter, who is pretty woke BTW :waiting: said when she was in the Naval Reserve, the other women never really gave the term Seaman a second thought. Though there were always snickers about the word "seaman" in the 12 year old boy sense of the word.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2020, 10:07:44 »
Or we go back to pre-1978 structure, with designator for each gender:

Ordinary Seaman, Able Seamen, Leading Seaman and Master Seaman for males; and,

Ordinary Wren, Able Wren, Leading Wren and Master Wren for females.

Oh, wait! Then we would need a whole slew of them for anyone not identifying as part of the binary gender spectrum.  ;D


Well, back to the drawing board. Hey! What about using a non-gendered body part?

We could say: Ordinary Hand, Able Hand, Leading Hand and Master Hand.  :rofl:


Does this mean that we also have to rebrand our ways of working ??? Sailorship instead of seamanship.

Offline FSTO

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Re: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2020, 10:14:50 »
Or we go back to pre-1978 structure, with designator for each gender:

Ordinary Seaman, Able Seamen, Leading Seaman and Master Seaman for males; and,

Ordinary Wren, Able Wren, Leading Wren and Master Wren for females.

Oh, wait! Then we would need a whole slew of them for anyone not identifying as part of the binary gender spectrum.  ;D


Well, back to the drawing board. Hey! What about using a non-gendered body part?

We could say: Ordinary Hand, Able Hand, Leading Hand and Master Hand.  :rofl:


Does this mean that we also have to rebrand our ways of working ??? Sailorship instead of seamanship.

Funny thing is this initiative is being pushed by men.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2020, 10:17:08 »
Funny thing is this initiative is being pushed by careerist men.

There FTFY :)
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Offline Dimsum

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Re: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2020, 10:47:18 »
Well, back to the drawing board. Hey! What about using a non-gendered body part?

We could say: Ordinary Hand, Able Hand, Leading Hand and Master Hand.  :rofl:

Look at you discriminating against non-handedness   :tsktsk:
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Offline Eaglelord17

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Re: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2020, 11:22:50 »
Why don't we go back to some historical ranks for our Navy... post unification

Pte, Pte (T), Cpl, MCpl, Sgt, WO, MWO, and CWO...

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2020, 12:04:56 »
Why don't we go back to some historical ranks for our Navy... post unification

Pte, Pte (T), Cpl, MCpl, Sgt, WO, MWO, and CWO...

Everyone claims to be an 'Operator' these days, so why not?

In other news, it seems that John Paul Jones' Navy has already had a crack at this:


Navy drops job titles in push for gender neutrality

Military | Abandoning the time-honored tradition avoids need for dozens of new descriptions

by Michael Cochrane
 Posted 10/06/16, 11:54 am

In a decision the Navy Times called “a tectonic shift in the Navy’s personnel system,” the service last week abandoned the time-honored tradition of referring to enlisted sailors by their rating, or job title, as well as their rank.

Ratings such as Gunner’s Mate, Boatswain’s Mate, and Quartermaster have a lineage going back hundreds of years to the Continental Navy and the British Royal Navy. Even more recently established rates, such as Information Systems Technician Second Class (IT2) or Electronics Technician Third Class (ET3), give many sailors reason to be proud of their naval heritage.

“When you’re a Boatswain’s Mate, it comes with a lot of pride because of what you do,” Schoanna Smith, a sailor stationed aboard the USS Mustin in Yokosuka, Japan, told Stars and Stripes. “Why can’t we be noticed as Boatswain’s Mates? Not everyone does the same job. … I feel it’s like saying all the rates are the same, which they aren’t.”

The move to eliminate the rating system follows Secretary of the Navy Ray Mabus’ decision in January to eliminate use of the word “man” in any Navy or Marine Corps job titles. The Marines have removed “man” from 19 occupational titles but were, as yet, unable to find suitable gender-neutral terms for “rifleman” or “mortarman.”

Rather than undertake the tedious task of creating gender-neutral terms for dozens of ratings, including “Yeoman” or “Hospital Corpsman,” the Navy went further than the Marines and scrapped the entire rating system, opting instead for a rank and job classification system similar to those used by the Army and Air Force.

From now on, sailors in the lowest pay grades of E-1 to E-3 will simply be called “seamen,” a term for which Mabus acknowledged he could find no good gender-neutral substitute. Pay grades E-4 to E-6 “will be called ‘Petty Officer Third/Second/First Class’ as appropriate, and senior enlisted pay grades of E-7 through E-9 will be called ‘Chief, Senior Chief, or Master Chief’ depending on their pay grade,” according to a Sept. 29 message to all Navy personnel.

The history of the Navy’s complex enlisted classification system goes back to the Royal Navy of the 18th century, when it was rare for a sailor to change ships, according to the U.S. Naval Institute, “and knowing what job a sailor performed aboard was the most important identifier.”

The power of such an historic tradition showed this week as many sailors voiced frustration with the change.

“Respectfully this is the stupidest decision ever,” wrote one commenter on the Navy Times Facebook page.

The day of the announcement, someone started a petition at whitehouse.gov asking President Barack Obama to overturn the policy.

“One by one, current leadership continues to erode the very things that set the Navy apart from the other services,” the petition states. As of Wednesday, the petition had garnered nearly 61,000 signatures of the 100,000 needed by Oct. 29 to win a response from the White House.


https://world.wng.org/2016/10/navy_drops_job_titles_in_push_for_gender_neutrality
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2020, 12:08:21 »
That's right: Let's use something that was in use for ... never, actually. While the "army" ranks were implemented across the CAF at unification, the maritime side of the house never stopped using it's old naval ranks, even if it took about 18 months to formally recognize this fact with the adoption of the "side" rank designation in the NDA annexes.

It took a much longer while, however for this to be actually recognized on pay slips. For quite a while, seamen's pay cheque would be labelled with the "army" equivalent rank, even though they still used their naval ranks as authorized.
 

Offline LittleBlackDevil

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Re: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2020, 16:35:59 »
From now on, sailors in the lowest pay grades of E-1 to E-3 will simply be called “seamen,” a term for which Mabus acknowledged he could find no good gender-neutral substitute.

Obviously "seaperson" or "seapeople" is the appropriate gender-neutral substitute.



Glad to see the RCN is right on top of dealing with the most pressing issues facing the navy.

Offline Underway

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Re: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2020, 20:46:33 »
When it fits I always use inclusive words.  I never use "manning" when "staffing" or "crewing" would work, say good morning "everyone/people" instead of "ladies and gentlemen".  It costs me nothing, is easy, and I get only appreciation back.  It's like using manners.

This also includes terms like "infanteer" instead of "infantryman" etc... 

My vote is we use franglais (no not a joke, it just oddly makes sense to me) the ranks.  Ordinary Matelot, Able Matelot etc...

Offline FSTO

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Re: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2020, 21:32:36 »
Killick has the same French and English meaning.

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2020, 22:22:04 »
 

My vote is we use franglais (no not a joke, it just oddly makes sense to me) the ranks.  Ordinary Matelot, Able Matelot etc...

Doesn't solve the gender issue.  En francais, "matelot" est un mot "masculin".
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Offline CloudCover

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Re: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2020, 00:29:56 »
Obviously "seaperson" or "seapeople" is the appropriate gender-neutral substitute.


How about just SEAL.

Or, make everyone an admiral and problem solved.
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Offline MCG

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Re: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2020, 08:44:26 »
Mariner?

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2020, 12:05:09 »
Mariner?

That or seafarer are common in the civilian side for a catchall; but their crews are small enough that they have names for individual positions (oiler, deckhand, purser, etc).

I think in reality they are mostly using air force radio procedure though; 'Hey Bob, run down the the engine room and check the diesel'

Offline LittleBlackDevil

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Re: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2020, 12:49:58 »
Mariner?

That or seafarer are common in the civilian side for a catchall...

My discontent with all the virtue signalling and creating problems to fix them (when there are real pressing problems) aside, I actually really like both of those options. I'd have no problem with the navy switching over so long as they didn't spend millions on "consulting" coming to the conclusion to use them.

Ordinary Mariner, Able Mariner, Leading Mariner, Master Mariner
Ordinary Seafarer, Seafarer Leading Seafarer, Master Seafarer

All sound good, although I'm more partial to Mariner. Seafarer feels a bit more pacific and suited to civilian side than warriors of the high seas.

No need to touch the Petty Officer ranks.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2020, 13:45:59 »
My discontent with all the virtue signalling and creating problems to fix them (when there are real pressing problems) aside, I actually really like both of those options. I'd have no problem with the navy switching over so long as they didn't spend millions on "consulting" coming to the conclusion to use them.

Ordinary Mariner, Able Mariner, Leading Mariner, Master Mariner
Ordinary Seafarer, Seafarer Leading Seafarer, Master Seafarer

All sound good, although I'm more partial to Mariner. Seafarer feels a bit more pacific and suited to civilian side than warriors of the high seas.

No need to touch the Petty Officer ranks.

Or, in the case of some of the older personnel on this board: 'Ancient Mariner' :)

#samueltaylorcoleridgewasright

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rime_of_the_Ancient_Mariner

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Offline FSTO

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Re: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2020, 15:40:52 »
My discontent with all the virtue signalling and creating problems to fix them (when there are real pressing problems) aside, I actually really like both of those options. I'd have no problem with the navy switching over so long as they didn't spend millions on "consulting" coming to the conclusion to use them.

Ordinary Mariner, Able Mariner, Leading Mariner, Master Mariner
Ordinary Seafarer, Seafarer Leading Seafarer, Master Seafarer

All sound good, although I'm more partial to Mariner. Seafarer feels a bit more pacific and suited to civilian side than warriors of the high seas.

No need to touch the Petty Officer ranks.

I'm not too impressed with either of those options. Mariner and Seafarer sounds far too civilianized.

Rates and Killicks are more to my liking. Although I'm sure the Command will find some unique way to piss off everyone!

Offline Colin P

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Re: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2020, 22:30:53 »
Able Deck-Ape, Leading Deck Ape? It certainly was how the senior officers of the CCG saw us back in the 90's.

Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2020, 04:48:35 »
This isnt finding much traction in the MS and below mess in my neck of the woods. 

In fact it has generated some rather poignant emails directly to the Fleet MS, from killicks, about the perception of mixed up priorities in the top end of the business.
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