Author Topic: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces  (Read 23004 times)

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Online Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #275 on: July 10, 2020, 09:48:15 »

 I can guarantee you that any civilian job will expect you to be responsive on your personal devices....   

Really?  Any?  Well mine doesn't.....my GF's doesn't.   That's at least 2 just seconds after reading your post.

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Online mariomike

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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #276 on: July 10, 2020, 10:10:59 »
I honestly don’t see why some people are against communicating with work though means not provided by work. I can guarantee you that any civilian job will expect you to be responsive on your personal devices....

I looked forward to their calls to my home phone. Four (4) hours pay at time-and-a-half.

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #277 on: July 10, 2020, 10:12:27 »
Maybe a bit :off topic: but ...

I know that no one ever wants to hear about COMSEC, but, unfortunately, unlike about 98% of what 95% of all CF GOFOs say and do, COMSEC actually matters.

The CF's use of the Gov't of Canada's security system remains a stupid mistake ... ALL military members and all DND civilians working on military issues should use ONLY the military security system which has detailed, enforceable rules (you, even a general, can go to prison for a long time for breaking them) and the COMSEC implications of those rules are well understood and well documented (were, 20+ years ago, anyway).

(Anecdotally, 20+ years ago I sat in a van with a handful of senior PCO and CF people. My techs used a piece of readily available civilian equipment that, back then, cost more than a luxury downtown condo, and we "read" a cabinet document from a secure DND computer, all because the senior officer behind the computer didn't want her/his desk and chair too far away from the window. (S)he was, by the way, several stories high and I was parked more than a block away ... that's how far the radiation from a CRT computer screen used to travel.)

Today's LED screens produce less (but nowhere near zero) radiation, but they can still be "read." And high-grade receivers and very high gain antennae are cheaper and smaller today, too, and are readily available on the open market ... just look at the Rohde & Schwarz product line to see what any civilian can buy. Governments, ours and foreign ones, can buy even better kit and I would be shocked if foreign agents are not using it in Ottawa, today.

Every CF members who is required to work outside of the secure office area should have a shielded computer (MilSpec 461, I think) (yes, they are heavier and more expensive) connected via a secure link (SCIP, now, I think) to the DND network. Anything less is amateurish.

My (out of date, I've been retired since some of you were in diapers) but still informed opinion.


Edited to add:

By the way, I have been convinced (since 1984) that the CF is directed (politically), managed and commanded by amateurs. Before 1984 I suspected that but I could not see it, close up ... nothing has changed my opinion in the intervening 35 years.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 10:16:56 by E.R. Campbell »
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #278 on: July 10, 2020, 10:13:53 »
I looked forward to their calls to my home phone. Four (4) hours pay at time-and-a-half.

And that's exactly how I've seen some of my (smarter) clients deal with that, especially for unionized employees. It's a good idea.

The 'excluded' staff? It's trickier, but constant emails expecting responses at 5 in the morning are a good indication that you might want to keep your options open....
“To stand on the firing parapet and expose yourself to danger; to stand and fight a thousand miles from home when you're all alone and outnumbered and probably beaten; to spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary.”
— Jerry Pournelle —

Online MJP

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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #279 on: July 10, 2020, 10:35:04 »


I honestly don’t see why some people are against communicating with work though means not provided by work. I can guarantee you that any civilian job will expect you to be responsive on your personal devices....

I see your point and the occasional use of my personal device is not the hill I am going to die on.

In the private sector those same companies that expect pers to use personal devices also provide a benefit for that usage as well. As an anecdotal example I am aware of a security company that has an app that their guards use on their personal phones for check ins and other things related to their job and they reimburses the employees for the usage of their own phones to a certain degree each month. Companies also have no issues signing T2200s for their employees to be able to deduct employment expenses, trying to get the same from DND/CAF next to impossible (although it may change this year given the situation).
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #280 on: July 10, 2020, 10:46:24 »
consolidated/moved down the page a few posts.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 12:47:50 by Eye In The Sky »

Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #281 on: July 10, 2020, 10:57:01 »
We had a system when DVPNI was limited where people on a WhatsApp chat would “claim” a slot to use it and “release” it when done.  This way, we didn’t have to have assigned Individual timeslots for work and allowed a more efficient use of our unit’s assigned slots.  We had people that initially refused to join.  It was fine.  We gave them the midnight to 4AM slots and expected their work to be done on time.  You are working from home, saving on gas, saving on parking (for some) with a more flexible work schedule where you can spend more time with the family.  Even if it costs you $50 a month more, you probably saved more in transportation costs to/from work.  The least you can do is show a bit of flexibility for the organization, especially in a context where there is absolutely no precedent.
+60

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #282 on: July 10, 2020, 12:13:12 »
You can give people all the 0000-0400 time slots you want;  if they don't want to use (or, say, don't even have) a personal Internet connection and/or devices...what is that accomplishing exactly?   ???

What level of info/data has WhatsApp been assessed for/approved for, IRT conducting official CAF business?  I'm not seeing it under the "Run Advertised Programs" on my DVPNI laptop as available software...meaning it would have to be assessed and approved for your/other units (which could be the case...).

I'm not debating this from a personal situation perspective;  I have DVPNI, I have a separate laptop at home for O365 (or I can assure you, it would not be installed on my personal device - see my earlier comments about how much I'll use my pers cellphone in the future for CAF business) and I do not have usage-based billing for my Internet.  My only real issue is the way 0365 *must* use MS 2FA for 365 to work.

The bigger, more important question is "should the CAF be relying on members using their own devices and internet (that the Crown does not pay for/maintain);  was this REALLY the solution in the (likely thousands of...) BCPs? 

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #283 on: July 10, 2020, 12:15:23 »
I honestly don’t see why some people are against communicating with work though means not provided by work. I can guarantee you that any civilian job will expect you to be responsive on your personal devices....

Really? ???

My company provides me with a full suite of IT resources.  They don’t have my personal mobile number, nor do they expect to have it. All work and communications is executed through company assets.  The same applies for all 50,000 employees around the world.

:2c:

Regards
G2G

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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #284 on: July 10, 2020, 12:19:56 »
I had a (clearly insane) CO try to charge people for not replying to his emails.

Maybe that's the result of one of these misinterpretations? ;)

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #285 on: July 10, 2020, 12:47:07 »
We use Microsoft Teams for work on our personal devices (with a DND Teams account).  It works well and we can share up to Prot A and discuss up to Prot B via voice.

Quote
I've not seen any of the documentation on O365 or Teams that mentions anything PB is authorized.  The documentation I have on O365 (including MS Teams) states "All work undertaken with this capability must remain at the PROTECTED A level or below" (underlining from my Onboarding directive on my Forces email).

I recalled there is an Internet document as well (the email I referred to above was sent to me PB).

Defence O365 frequently asked questions

2 - What is Microsoft (MS) Teams?
Microsoft (MS) Teams is a collaborative tool set to help you and your colleagues communicate when not in the office. You can use MS Teams to hold video conference meetings, or to share transitory information.  For more information about MS Teams, visit the Microsoft Teams Wikipedia article.

4 - Why should I use MS Teams when I’m already using similar Apps/Software?
While there are many apps and software available now, Defence O365 has been identified as the preferred option. Using your Defence O365 account with MS Teams provides a common platform to work and collaborate with your peers from the Defence Team.  The tool provides intuitive features such as chat, message boards, calendar and videoconference.  The tool is also an alternative to audio teleconference bridges.  This tool will allow us to improve our ability to work remotely and collaborate during this emergency period.

6 - How secure is this solution?
The Defence O365 environment was customized for DND’s needs. It was assessed by both the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security and DIMSecur. This tool has been approved to storing and processing up to Protected A information .  A number of security measures have been included in this solution, including active monitoring.

Authorized Use (Protected A)
25 - What is the appropriate usage of this tool – what type of work tasks am I allowed to complete in the Cloud?
Office 365 supports browser-based versions of all Microsoft Office Suite Applications such as: Outlook, Word, Excel, PowerPoint and OneNote. However, it is only suitable for information up to Protected A at this time. Please note that Protected B, Classified, Controlled Goods and ITAR information is not permitted on Defence O365 at this time.

 :whistle:

Additionally, IRT WhatsApp and similar software:

DND/CAF Security Guide for Teleworking during the COVID-19 Response

* note - not seeing WhatsApp on this list...I'll assume it falls under "not assessed" as discussed in Para 6 above.

2. Share only unclassified* information: No sensitive information (Protected A, B, C or classified) is permitted. 

4.  Be inclusive: Some people may not have Internet access, have accessibility challenges, or have concerns using certain public cloud services. Find ways to ensure everyone can participate. 

Now, maybe it's only me, but I don't think "frig you, you get the 0000-0400 slot" is what they meant in Para 4.  Great leadership, though (gold clap).
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 12:50:17 by Eye In The Sky »

Offline CanadianTire

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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #286 on: July 10, 2020, 13:08:07 »
Really?  Any?  Well mine doesn't.....my GF's doesn't.   That's at least 2 just seconds after reading your post.

Same here. My civilian employers does not have my cell # on record, nor have they asked for it. I have voluntarily given it to a few select people under very certain circumstances.
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Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #287 on: July 10, 2020, 13:57:43 »
I meant voice as in phone lines.  For the midnight to 4AM slots, our units spans across Canada.  We had people on at 6AM Eastern time (4 AM Cold Lake time) and off at 2330 Cold Lake time, the slots being used about 80% of the time.  We were not good going to give people that were refusing to partake out of principle (they did have internet access, used Facebook and even WhatsApp on their personal devices already) convenient slots at the  expense of 40 other folks.  G2G: my dad has a blue collar job and is expected to give his personal phone number to his employer and be ready to be called for work.  Same for airline pilots on reserve.  These are truly first world problems especially when put into a pandemic context.  People lost their jobs and were forces to drastically reduce their income and can barely (if at all) make ends meet.  I bet they would trade their phone number for work...

Offline trooper142

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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #288 on: July 10, 2020, 14:11:16 »
Im sorry, what now ?  Did I miss something ?

I just wanna jump on this, I had heard the military was ordered to back pay for short Changing troops related to TD travel; as they were only reimbursing up to 500km one way for pmv travel, but didn't seek treasury board approval for the change.

Any news on this front?

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #289 on: July 10, 2020, 14:19:43 »
I meant voice as in phone lines.

check

Quote
We were not good going to give people that were refusing to partake out of principle (they did have internet access, used Facebook and even WhatsApp on their personal devices already) convenient slots at the  expense of 40 other folks.

So, we're back full-circle.  Can you order people who've been ordered to not report to their place of duty to use personal devices for GoC/CAF reasons?   If you can't order it, should you expect it?  Or should you just be thankful for those who are willing?

Is there a BCP out there, at the higher or lower (Sqn/Unit) levels that says "members shall be expected to use personal devices and data connections to conduct normal duties"?  (serious question there)

Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #290 on: July 10, 2020, 14:22:54 »
Well, with giving them the available timeslots, they did not have to use their personal device.  They logged in when it was their turn.  That was our way of being flexible (and the only one that did not affect the whole unit. 

Do you ask the military to pay for your gas to/from work and provide you with a vehicle?  To me, nowadays, it is pretty much the same thing.

Most (99.9%) people appreciated using tools like this as it allowed them flexibility in their daily routine, juggling home schooling and work. 
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 14:25:39 by SupersonicMax »

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #291 on: July 10, 2020, 14:41:03 »
Well, with giving them the available timeslots, they did not have to use their personal device.  They logged in when it was their turn.  That was our way of being flexible (and the only one that did not affect the whole unit.

I'm missing something here, I realize.  What were they connecting with; DVPNI?

Quote
Do you ask the military to pay for your gas to/from work and provide you with a vehicle? 

Of course not, but use of a PMV for DUTY reasons, I would.

But those differences are clearly laid out in policy.

CFTDI, Chap 5, Section 3 - Transportation benefits
5.20 General
(No Entitlement) There is no entitlement for a member to be reimbursed any expenses for travel:
a. to and from their permanent workplace on a daily basis; and
b.  in respect of a mess dinner, mixed dining-in, or other similar event.

Quote
To me, nowadays, it is pretty much the same thing

But, is what you consider 'the same thing' equate CAF expectations?  This is part of the issue;  mbr's who have a personal opinion on a subj like this that begins to equal 'expectations of their subordinates', but with no *Snr Command* input/direction.  "You will watch the CofC ceremony on your FB accounts"  "Everyone in the section except Jimmy and Jane use WhatsApp how/when we want on their pers devices...lets give them crappy times because they aren't Bending The Knee". 

Quote
Most (99.9%) people appreciated using tools like this as it allowed them flexibility in their daily routine, juggling home schooling and work.

I'm one of those people, but I'm fortunate to have had DVPNI as well, AND a separate device for O365 AND no usage-based billing.  Not everyone is in that boat; those are the cases I'm cyber-advocating for...
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 15:31:30 by Eye In The Sky »

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #292 on: July 10, 2020, 15:01:06 »
There's always going to be people who make a fuss about the chain of command having their cell numbers or whatever and fight it every step. Personally I don't care but I'm sure we've all seen it abused here and there so sometimes people have valid reasons for their privacy

I have a wicked schedule and I'm loving the amount of time I have with my family. If my boss wants to call me at 730pm because they need to know how many non-white females between 19 and 35 years old completed the FORCE test in the last 4 months and needs to know by tomorrow morning then sure whatever*.

Simply put there needs to be boundaries. Because if there isn't then you have sergeants ordering their section to download chat apps of their choice to stay in touch. Lieutenants ordering their platoons to download Strava to track PT. CSMs ordering companies to use chat programs for call outs (and you better explain yourself if you don't respond within 30 minutes). CWOs ordering units to access and use facebook to watch a parade. Majors and LCols pushing out complete sets of orders over Whatsapp.


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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #293 on: July 10, 2020, 15:02:44 »
Simply put there needs to be boundaries. Because if there isn't then you have sergeants ordering their section to download chat apps of their choice to stay in touch. Lieutenants ordering their platoons to download Strava to track PT. CSMs ordering companies to use chat programs for call outs (and you better explain yourself if you don't respond within 30 minutes). CWOs ordering units to access and use facebook to watch a parade. Majors and LCols pushing out complete sets of orders over Whatsapp.

So.... you've been talking to a few people I know out this way then? :)
“To stand on the firing parapet and expose yourself to danger; to stand and fight a thousand miles from home when you're all alone and outnumbered and probably beaten; to spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary.”
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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #294 on: July 10, 2020, 15:40:51 »
I'm missing something here, I realize.  What were they connecting with; DVPNI?

Of course not, but use of a PMV for DUTY reasons, I would.

But those differences are clearly laid out in policy.

CFTDI, Chap 5, Section 3 - Transportation benefits
5.20 General
(No Entitlement) There is no entitlement for a member to be reimbursed any expenses for travel:
a. to and from their permanent workplace on a daily basis; and
b.  in respect of a mess dinner, mixed dining-in, or other similar event.

But, is what you consider 'the same thing' equate CAF expectations?  This is part of the issue;  mbr's who have a personal opinion on a subj like this that begins to equal 'expectations of their subordinates', but with no *Snr Command* input/direction.  "You will watch the CofC ceremony on your FB accounts"  "Everyone in the section except Jimmy and Jane use WhatsApp how/when we want on their pers devices...lets give them crappy times because they aren't Bending The Knee". 

I'm one of those people, but I'm fortunate to have had DVPNI as well, AND a separate device for O365 AND no usage-based billing.  Not everyone is in that boat; those are the cases I'm cyber-advocating for...

I've heard people say we work 24 hours a day and are always on duty yet they pay you to come to work if you get recalled.  Why not pay you to use a personal device?  Although I'm not sure I want their apps on my phone regardless.

5.24 Recall to work
Subject to instruction 5.20 (General), a member who is recalled from home to the member's workplace is - if the recall is the second trip to the workplace in a 24 hour period - entitled to be reimbursed:

a.  in respect of a member using a PMV, two times the kilometric rate for the direct road distance between the member%u2019s home and the workplace; and

b.  in respect of a member using local transportation - including buses, subways, commuter trains, taxis, bridge tolls, docking fees, and other transportation
     charges authorized by the approving authority ordering the recall, the member%u2019s actual and reasonable expenses including gratuities.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 15:43:24 by stellarpanther »

Offline MilEME09

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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #295 on: September 15, 2020, 17:22:15 »
https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politics/liberals-don-t-plan-to-cut-military-spending-to-rein-in-deficit-sajjan-1.5106032#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=Facebook&_gsc=mDqwJ6b


Minister says defense cuts are not on the table, and that they went to accelerate military spending due to covid. Likely in my opiniom to stimulate the economy.

I'll believe it when the budget comes down without us loosing money.
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Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #296 on: September 15, 2020, 20:10:18 »
https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politics/liberals-don-t-plan-to-cut-military-spending-to-rein-in-deficit-sajjan-1.5106032#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=Facebook&_gsc=mDqwJ6b


Minister says defense cuts are not on the table, and that they went to accelerate military spending due to covid. Likely in my opiniom to stimulate the economy.

I'll believe it when the budget comes down without us loosing money.

Accelerating spending is pretty hard right now; I'm sure the various COVID impacts have slowed down our system, but it's also impacted every aspect of the supply chain, and best of luck if you need anything that requires on the ground support for installation/set to work/trials from outside of Canada.  There is no way that we won't underspend this year, and if it's NP money it's just lost.

It would be a good time to fill up the part bins except they severly curtailed warehousing, so that's not an option either.

The budget really doesn't matter during something like this, and no chance of it ending this fiscal year and will still be slowing down any planned spending next year.

Offline FSTO

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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #297 on: September 16, 2020, 02:39:50 »
https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politics/liberals-don-t-plan-to-cut-military-spending-to-rein-in-deficit-sajjan-1.5106032#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=Facebook&_gsc=mDqwJ6b


Minister says defense cuts are not on the table, and that they went to accelerate military spending due to covid. Likely in my opiniom to stimulate the economy.

I'll believe it when the budget comes down without us loosing money.

Doesn't the "Architect" know about our procurement process?

Offline MilEME09

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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #298 on: September 16, 2020, 12:42:24 »
Doesn't the "Architect" know about our procurement process?

Right? Our procurement system only has a slow down button, never speed up.
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Re: The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces
« Reply #299 on: September 16, 2020, 13:33:46 »
Once upon a time,, when I was a captain, I got glared at by some senior officers for suggesting our procurement system was designed to keep lots of people employed when there was no money to buy anything.