Author Topic: Dress and Deportment  (Read 39867 times)

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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #50 on: April 04, 2005, 16:43:58 »
...

Oh and BTW, Mr. Campell, respectfully sir, if you wish to voice your comments you might want to send them off to Major General H.M.Petras the current Chief or Reserves and Cadets, instead of Vice Admiral Buck.

I'm sure that's good and well intentioned advice but I don't know MGen Petras from Adam whereas Ron Buck and I go back a ways.  Any letter from me to MGen Petras would be dealt with by a clerk - maybe a two and half or three stripe clerk, but a clerk all the same.  A personal note to VAdm Buck, on the other hand, will be read and, maybe, even considered, by him, busy as he is.  At the very least he'll smile, shake his head and say, â Å“Some of these old retired guys have too much time on their hands.â ?
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Offline N. McKay

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #51 on: April 04, 2005, 16:57:24 »
Well, thank you for the (indirect) reply...but I don't really buy that argument, though. Why is a separate uniform a "solid and rather important line?" Can you please clarify why? Isn't a set of officers bars enough of a distinction?

No.   How does Joe Public, tell the officers from the senior cadets?   Bars, crowns, and chevrons mean bugger all to anyone not familiar with the Service.   Age won't cut it; there are officer cadets as young as 18, and cadets as old.

I see this as a question of representation. IMO, A CIC officer has more in common with a cadet than any other type of CF member (regular, reserve, whatever), and their role in the CF, the training they're given, and the types of employment they are qualified to take.

Evidently you've never been a CIC officer.

It seems odd to me that the CIC does not have a uniform that reflects that association and these skillsets; if anything it distances them from the cadets they're trying to lead.

Yes, and rightly so.   When you supervise youth a professional distance is necessary; you can't be, or appear to be, "one of the guys".

Offline N. McKay

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #52 on: April 04, 2005, 17:04:35 »
But they don't wear the same uniform anymore. And its easy to mistake a CIC officer for someone else, the cap badge can be mistaken from a distance and most of the CIC folks I see don't wear 'CIC' slipons, they wear 'Canada' ones....I wonder why that is.

Because of people who might think less of them because of their branch; because of unprofessional attitude cases who will replace proper military courtesy with rude remarks; because the local supply outfit doesn't bother to stock the correct ones; or any combination of the above and other reasons.

You claim that you accept you position/role in the CF as a CIC officer, so why not accept that since you operate in such a different role, you should have a distinct uniform (like the Rangers) so that you can be identified as such.

First of all, I don't feel any desperate need to be identified as a CIC officer.   I'm a Canadian Forces officer, and that's all anyone I meet in the street needs to know.   Rangers don't have a distinct uniform to avoid being mistaken for infantrymen; they have a coloured sweatshirt to wear with their own clothing to identify them as Rangers vice civilians.   And I doubt that most of them wear that when they're watching over the North.

Navy officers war the same uniform as their sailors, army officers wear the same uniform as their troops, air force officers wear the same uniform as their troops, so why should the CIC not wear the same uniform as THEIR troops? Whats so special about the CIC? Soldiers can differentiate between themlseves and their officers and they wear the same uniform, if they can do it, I'm sure cadets can. An officer's bar is an officer's bar.

Naval officers and sailors belong to the same organisation.   CIC officers also belong to that organisation; cadets do not.   Cadets are not CF members.   They are civilian youth, clients of a programme offered by DND.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2005, 19:29:14 by Neill McKay »

Offline Riobeard

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #53 on: April 04, 2005, 18:54:34 »
Edward Campbell, respectfully again sir, if you do have time on your hands as you indicated, I'm sure a Cadet Corp in your area could sure benefit from your experience. 
I'm sure Vice Admiral Buck would concur, as when he was posted to Pacific Command he was a very generous and outstanding contributor to and supporter of our Cadet program in Pacific region.   I had the personal honour of meeting him and speaking with him on a few occasions.
Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think.
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Offline Haggis

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #54 on: April 04, 2005, 20:03:03 »
Clearly this is going nowhere fast.... ::)
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Offline 0tto Destruct

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #55 on: April 04, 2005, 21:12:11 »
No.   How does Joe Public, tell the officers from the senior cadets?   Bars, crowns, and chevrons mean bugger all to anyone not familiar with the Service.   Age won't cut it; there are officer cadets as young as 18, and cadets as old.

Evidently you've never been a CIC officer.

Yes, and rightly so.   When you supervise youth a professional distance is necessary; you can't be, or appear to be, "one of the guys".


- What does civvie street have to do with this?  It would follow then  that it must really be hard for civilians to tell the difference between an NCM and an officer in the CF, as they have the same uniforms. But then, does it really matter whether or not civilians can tell the difference? On another note, we have reservists as young as 16, and officers as young as 18. Hell, my section IC is a 2Lt who is the youngest soldier in the section at 21. Who cares? He holds a commission, and he's the guy in charge, despite the age difference. Full stop. Do you think a civilian would confuse the authority of a 21-year old reg force Lt standing next to a crusty old reg WO?   Would it be a problem for Junior CIC officers to correct anyone who mistakes them for another cadet?

- You're right, I have no CIC experience. How does this address my comment? I still believe that CIC's have more in common with cadets than the rest of the reserve. CIC's do not have the same training, share the same experiences, are not deployable, and have few of the skillsets that other reserve soldiers have. You do have training to supervise and manage a youth program. Is my information wrong? I'm asking these questions because I have little to no experience in this area.

- You're absolutely right about maintaining a distance. But isn't that why you're an officer? You can still wear the same uniform and maintain a professional distance.

- I'm not saying that the CIC shouldn't be in the CF, or hold a commission. I'm saying that they should wear a uniform that reflects those who they lead, and reflects their own training. It seems that your issue here is one of trying to gain the respect of other CF members through wearing the same uniform. In your responses to me, you claim that you require a separate uniform so that civilians can identify you, yet in some of your other comments you argue that even with a CF uniform "people...think less of them because of their branch; because of unprofessional attitude cases who will replace proper military courtesy with rude remarks; because the local supply outfit doesn't bother to stock the correct ones; or any combination of the above and other reasons." you're referring to other CF members, I take it?

Cheers,   :dontpanic:



« Last Edit: April 04, 2005, 21:15:50 by JavaMan »

Offline N. McKay

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #56 on: April 04, 2005, 21:48:43 »
- What does civvie street have to do with this?  It would follow then   that it must really be hard for civilians to tell the difference between an NCM and an officer in the CF, as they have the same uniforms. But then, does it really matter whether or not civilians can tell the difference?

Yes it does, when we're in public, or when a parent comes to the unit looking for someone in authority.

Quote
- You're right, I have no CIC experience. How does this address my comment? I still believe that CIC's have more in common with cadets than the rest of the reserve. CIC's do not have the same training, share the same experiences, are not deployable, and have few of the skillsets that other reserve soldiers have. You do have training to supervise and manage a youth program. Is my information wrong? I'm asking these questions because I have little to no experience in this area.

I've been both a naval reservist and a naval CIC officer.  In principle, there isn't a huge difference between running a naval reserve unit and a sea cadet corps.  In both cases, you're essentially running a school that teaches classes one evening a week and some weekends.  We are trained to organise training, to employ instructional techniques, to evaluate and develop instructors (cadets and officers both), to administer staff, to control supplies, to perform public relations tasks, and countless other little details that have to be looked after.

The cadets in a corps aren't a single hohomogeneous group; they have almost the same rank structure as the navy, and cadets of higher rank are increasingly responsible for the boots-on-the-deck running of the unit.  The biggest difference is that the "troops" are our clients rather than our employees -- a small distinction with teenagers, but significant none the less.  They're not accountable the way NCMs are (you can't charge a cadet for service offences, e.g.)  Nor do most of them have the level of maturity that most NCMs have, so leadership is a different challenge for the officers.

Another significant difference is the level of support received from outside of the unit, and the equipment held by the unit.  The cadet unit CO deals with a sponsoring body (usually the appropriate cadet League) to supply things DND does not (musical instruments, for example).  The sponsor usually isn't made up of military or ex-military people (but sometimes includes some), so a very different approach is necessary when interacting with them.

The last big difference is that most P. Res units control their building, while most cadet units are lodgers in someone else's building, sometimes a DND building and sometimes not.

And of course there are other, smaller, differences, but looking at the framework of it, the job isn't dramatically different.

It's quite wrong to say that CIC officers are more alike cadets than other service members; I'd argue that the difference between CIC officers and cadets is much more pronounced than that between a NAVRES officer and his NCMs.  The client/employee issue and the degree to which work can be delegated to the cadet or NCM are the two most defining differences.

Quote
- You're absolutely right about maintaining a distance. But isn't that why you're an officer? You can still wear the same uniform and maintain a professional distance.

Ah, but look at it though twelve-year-old recruit eyes, at the 18-year-old DPO and the 20-year-old Divisional Officer wearing the same uniform.  The distinction blurs quickly.

Quote
yet in some of your other comments you argue that even with a CF uniform "people...think less of them because of their branch; because of unprofessional attitude cases who will replace proper military courtesy with rude remarks; because the local supply outfit doesn't bother to stock the correct ones; or any combination of the above and other reasons." you're referring to other CF members, I take it?


Yes, and I've seen enough of that to know.

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #57 on: April 04, 2005, 22:10:25 »
Ladies and Gents,

We're sending this to the corner for a time out. We'll revisit the situation in a few days. In the meantime, please DO NOT start anymore threads in this genre.

Thanks,
The Staff
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What scares me is how comfortable people are doing nothing about it.

Offline exCAFguy

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #58 on: May 01, 2019, 18:18:29 »
Looking at this from a different perspective, and what I'm hoping is probably the case...

Perhaps this was a mere oversight.  Let's not be too busy to go on a witch-hunt & burn one of our own because the initial optics look bad. 

This could have been a simple matter of something showing up on someone's desk for "participating in event X" and someone saying "Yeah, sure."  Without knowing the historic and/or religious implications.


I highly doubt someone in the CF is so intensely interested in the India-Sikh nonsense that they DELIBERATELY chose to authorize this & "choose sides".  While that may be the end result in terms of optics, I doubt this was the intention.

Perhaps we can just call this a bad judgement call, a learning opportunity, and move on.  Unless something is done maliciously or with deliberately bad intentions, let's not pull out the pitch-forks just yet.

My issue with your stance on this is Jr Ranks get absolutely hammered by higher ups when they do something in which the “initial optics look bad.”  Because of that, Sr Officers should get the same if not harsher treatment when they do something with terrible optics as well. (Pipedream I know)
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 15:11:40 by BeyondTheNow »

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2019, 18:49:50 »
@Jarhamar, @MilEmE09 I can't believe I have to cut and paste this here in regards to helmets.


C'mon, you can totally believe it  ;)

We wanted to show soldiers in FFO - we didn't.
We wanted to show off our excellent equipment - we didn't.

It's halftical.
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Offline Haggis

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #60 on: May 01, 2019, 19:03:16 »
It's halftical.

LOL... that's a term I haven't heard in quite a while.

From reading this thread and the comments on social media, I'm sure this will be page six news by Friday except in the halls of 4 Div HQ and the MND's office.  It's going to stick around there until posting season for sure.
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Offline ballz

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #61 on: May 01, 2019, 19:19:59 »
*Yes, "gaggling."  It looks undisciplined and you can't even argue that they were in a "patrol" formation.  A patrol formation is still a disciplined formation and all of these soldiers are too close together to be an effective patrol - one grenade and they're done.

This is what I love about being "semi-tactical" or, as I like it put, half-pregnant. It causes ridiculous circular arguments like the effective or non-effective dispersion of personnel to protect them from grenades...while on parade in downtown Toronto. "But they are on parade, so they should be marching in step." "But they are tactical, so they should be dispersed in a patrol formation." "But they are on parades, so they should spit shine their boots." "But they are tactical, so their boots are brown suede." "But they are on parade, so they need to yell loud and clear drill orders." "But they are tactical, so they should use hand signals."

I LOVE IT. Let's just stop it all with the fact that they are parading, and should therefore follow parade norms / standards / etc.

By the time you get to be a LCol in the reserve Army and, worse yet, a BGen in the regular Arny (Comd 4 Cdn Div) you are supposed to be fully aware of (not just interested in) the nature of the "India-Sikh nonsense" and its implications for Canadian foreign policy ... anyone who is not aware of that should not be even a lieutenant in the Canadian Army, much less a lieutenant colonel.

This would be an interesting tangent for a thread... that seems like a lofty expectation for all Lts. I'll bet most LCols are not half-aware, let alone fully aware, of India-Sikh stuff.

Of course it's "a bad judgement call," bad enough that the CO should be relieved, tomorrow, and BGen Paul (who cannot be fired for political/PR/ethnocultural reasons ~ he's indigenous, likely the most senior serving indigenous member) should be packing his bags for a long, Long, LONG tour in Brussels or Mons, à la then Col, later BGen Serge Labbé after the Somalia affair.

My guess is the CO doesn't even get put on IC, and definitely nothing happens to the Bde Comd. I suspect the 4 Div Comd, or his staff, had no clue this was happening although I don't know how much that would have changed anything.

I think the other good tangent here is the appropriateness of CAF participating in various parades, particularly as the CAF clearly wants to be more diverse / inclusive and so can cross into political issues much easier. You seem mostly miffed about this from a foreign policy perspective, which I think most people were not even aware of. Most people, I think, are caught off guard by the appropriateness of conducting a parade while being half-preggo. What do you think your reaction would be if they were just in DEUs and didn't come across as a bag of hammers, given your larger concern of the foreign policy repercussions.


« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 19:28:23 by ballz »
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Offline Haggis

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #62 on: May 01, 2019, 19:33:07 »
My guess is the CO doesn't even get put on IC, and definitely nothing happens to the Bde Comd. I suspect the 4 Div Comd, or his staff, had no clue this was happening although I don't know how much that would have changed anything.

I suspect that this may be simply a case of a young officer taking the "CO's intent" and misguidedly running with it.

I also know, having been a unit Ops O for three years prior to retiring, that Bde HQ pays little attention to a lot of stuff due to a tremendous number of competing priorities.  Usually something "odd" would come to the G3's attention through the G4 net when units asked for weird stuff on their TSRs.  Our Bde G3 was understaffed to a ridiculous point whereby they were almost totally reactive and outside the OODA loop.  I'm surprised more crap didn't happen and I credit the units Ops Staffs for ensure the young "good idea fairies" were kept in a cage. [/quote]
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 19:51:07 by Haggis »
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Offline ballz

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #63 on: May 01, 2019, 19:49:02 »
I suspect that this may be simply a case of a young officer taking the "CO's intent" and misguidedly running with it.

I doubt it... the Global and CBC stuff I've read have said it was the Commanding Officer. Plus they are PRes so it would be a Commanding Officer decision to pay these guys, etc... and the request, in one way or another, would have went through the CO / Ops staff. An Lt or Capt doesn't have the authority/autonomy to wipe their own arse in the CAF, let alone take their guys downtown in FFO to participate in a huge event all on their own initiative and with their own internal resources. I'm guessing the CO had full awareness of what was happening, but lacked the critical thinking ability to decipher that this may be a bad idea given he probably had "inclusivity, diversity, etc" on the mind and thought that was in line with the CAF's intent.

I also know, having been a unit Ops O for three years prior to retiring, that Bde HQ pays little attention to a lot of stuff due to a tremendous number of competing priorities.  Usually something "odd" would come to the G3's attention through the G4 net when units asked for weird stuff on their TSRs.  Our Bde G3 was understaffed to a ridiculous point whereby they were almost totally reactive and outside the OODA loop.  I'm surprised more crap didn't happen and I credit the units Ops Staffs for ensure the young "good idea fairies" were kept in a cage. 

That's right and sounds similar with my experience. This parade occurring was probably a bullet point on the Unit's quad-slide during a CUB at the CBG level at most, with very little attention paid to it. And like I said, I doubt it even made the slides at Div.
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Offline garb811

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #64 on: May 01, 2019, 19:52:59 »
But what's a poor PRes CO to think about all that Dress Manual and Drill and Ceremonial stuff when you see a guard mounted for the CDS in flight suits, CADPAT and NCD with accoutrements?


Offline Haggis

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #65 on: May 01, 2019, 19:54:48 »
I doubt it... the Global and CBC stuff I've read have said it was the Commanding Officer. Plus they are PRes so it would be a Commanding Officer decision to pay these guys, etc... and the request, in one way or another, would have went through the CO / Ops staff.
I think you missed my point.  No doubt the CO was aware and authorized participation, tasking it down through his C of C.  How that participation was executed may have been when the wheels fell off the wagon.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #66 on: May 01, 2019, 20:00:03 »
Perhaps they felt the justification was to increase recruiting?

Offline Haggis

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #67 on: May 01, 2019, 20:54:37 »
Perhaps they felt the justification was to increase recruiting?

The old saying "any publicity is good publicity" doesn't apply here.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #68 on: May 01, 2019, 21:44:31 »
I suspect more like; "Lets look cool, mean, tough and proud" Which is the sort stuff that gets people to join.

Offline ballz

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #69 on: May 01, 2019, 22:27:25 »
I think you missed my point.  No doubt the CO was aware and authorized participation, tasking it down through his C of C.  How that participation was executed may have been when the wheels fell off the wagon.

In that case yes, I did miss your point.
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #70 on: May 01, 2019, 22:46:28 »
I did a change of command parade in FFO with helmets and weapons, trying desperately to do proper drills movements as directed. Some COs and RSMs are special people I tell ya...

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #71 on: May 01, 2019, 22:57:11 »
If the CO signed off on the order that directed the dress and deportment, it's on him - even if he just did a "sign here, sir".

Heck, I've heard of a CO who sent back a FORCE test asking "are the timings for these two elements reversed, because they seem odd".  If a CO signs without reading, it's their own fault.
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Offline Haggis

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #72 on: May 02, 2019, 06:17:55 »
If the CO signed off on the order that directed the dress and deportment, it's on him - even if he just did a "sign here, sir".

Thursday night
OPI:  "Here's the parade order for the weekend, sir.  Dress for the marching contingent will be CADPAT and fighting order with weapons.  They will wear regimental turbans, sir, no helmets."

CO;  "Right, thanks." (scans document, looks good, signs it.. "Here you go, Carl.  Let me know how it goes on Tuesday."

Parade Day morning:

OPI:  "Right, troops, it's gonna be a long one, so carry at the low ready and keep your fingers off the trigger, just like a ruck march, okay?"

Senior NCM: "Sir??"

OPI:  "It's all good.  It's a parade honouring warriors.  9er signed off on it.  We're good to go at the low ready - trust me."
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #73 on: May 02, 2019, 07:25:25 »
Quote from: Haggis


OPI:  "Right, troops, it's gonna be a long one, so carry at the low ready and keep your fingers off the trigger, just like a ruck march, okay?"


I would have said carry at the high ready with the butt in the shoulder, eyes just above the sight. Sweeping the rifle right to left and using the sight to check roof tops not and then.

Gotta put on a show.
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Offline RomeoJuliet

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #74 on: May 02, 2019, 10:16:45 »
Thursday night
OPI:  "Here's the parade order for the weekend, sir.  Dress for the marching contingent will be CADPAT and fighting order with weapons.  They will wear regimental turbans, sir, no helmets."

CO;  "Right, thanks." (scans document, looks good, signs it.. "Here you go, Carl.  Let me know how it goes on Tuesday."

Parade Day morning:

OPI:  "Right, troops, it's gonna be a long one, so carry at the low ready and keep your fingers off the trigger, just like a ruck march, okay?"

Senior NCM: "Sir??"

OPI:  "It's all good.  It's a parade honouring warriors.  9er signed off on it.  We're good to go at the low ready - trust me."
This was an interesting topic of discussion yesterday at our Ops meeting...


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