Author Topic: Armoured Crewman Weapons  (Read 23297 times)

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Offline Brihard

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Re: Armoured personal weapons
« Reply #75 on: May 13, 2017, 20:14:57 »
Thanks for the info.

Are handguns issued at all? And I would have figured the C8 would be more convenient due to the more compact size..

Pistols are fun and cool, but they exist to fight your way to a rifle. I carry a pistol every day at work, but it's for if I'm caught by surprise. if I think I'll need a gun ahead of time, I grab something longer.

C8s are about 4" shorter than a C7. The addition of the retracting stock to the C7A2 has knocked the length down a fair bit. Regular force armour will often carry C8s. Reserves, I'm not sure.
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Re: Armoured personal weapons
« Reply #76 on: May 13, 2017, 21:52:42 »
As an infantry guy - retired - I would have said armoured troops should be issued slingshots..... ;)
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Offline Tango2Bravo

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Re: Armoured personal weapons
« Reply #77 on: May 13, 2017, 22:23:43 »
Thanks for the info.

Are handguns issued at all? And I would have figured the C8 would be more convenient due to the more compact size..

At the Regiment (RCD) I carried a C8 when I was in an AFV (Troop Leader. Battle Captain etc). I was also issued a pistol as a Battle Captain, OC, R2IC. I seem to recall all AFV crewmen carrying C8s but I could be wrong. I carried a C8 and a pistol during my first Afghan tour as did most crew commanders at that time. Pistols are fine for crew commanders when they dismount quickly, but it is a secondary weapon.

When I was in a Reserve Armoured unit circa 1989-1997 we had a smaller number of C8s so many guys had C7s instead. We had a few pistols but these were for senior personnel. I am not sure how it is now.
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Offline recceguy

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Re: Armoured personal weapons
« Reply #78 on: May 14, 2017, 01:36:10 »
The last armoured soldiers i've heard of were mounted on horses with sword, morning stars, a mace or lance.  [:D

You were likely thinking of a soldier in the Armoured Corps. ;)

You become a full crewman and Trooper rank after you complete your Corps trade training.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 01:41:35 by recceguy »
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Offline recceguy

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Re: Armoured personal weapons
« Reply #79 on: May 14, 2017, 15:53:36 »
As an infantry guy - retired - I would have said armoured troops should be issued slingshots..... ;)


Armoured troops should be issued a squire, and fair maiden to rescue.  [;)

Armour troops can be issued slingshots.  [:D

Armour, Infantry, Artillery, Engineer  :salute:

I appear to be going through a either/ both a didactic or pedantic phase, Could be I'm heading into that long awaited and expected, second childhood. 8)

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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Armoured personal weapons
« Reply #80 on: May 14, 2017, 16:07:58 »

Armoured troops should be issued a squire, and fair maiden to rescue.  [;)

Armour troops can be issued slingshots.  [:D

Armour, Infantry, Artillery, Engineer  :salute:

I appear to be going through a either/ both a didactic or pedantic phase, Could be I'm heading into that long awaited and expected, second childhood. 8)

So- you had set of armour until the end of your...second tour?

<ducks>

Offline recceguy

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Re: Armoured personal weapons
« Reply #81 on: May 14, 2017, 17:11:08 »
So- you had set of armour until the end of your...second tour?

<ducks>

Still got it. Won't fit anyone else. That, and the winch and tackle to get me up on my trusty steed.  ;D
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Offline ConsideringCareers…

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Armoured Crewman Weapons
« Reply #82 on: September 25, 2017, 14:01:13 »
Hello all,

I know, you must be thinking “He’s making another post! When will this guy quit?!”, answer is: I won’t. I have been doing a bunch of searching around and have found tons of posts answering this question pretty well, problem is, most are from pre-2005 era.

My question is summed up in the title, what weapons do armoured crewman carry?

Do all crewman carry pistols (is this the proper term, or is sidearm or handgun better?)? If not, who does carry them?

Do all crewman carry the C8 now? Or do some still use the C7?

Are C9s given to armoured troops? Would the C6 on the top of the vehicle be used off of it’s axis?

Do the weapons vary between Tank Sqns and Recce Sqns, or do they all use about the same?

(Off topic, but I’m not gonna make another topic for this question, feel free to move it if that is more appropriate mods) If Armoured Recce crewman carry C7s/C8s, how often do they use them? Engage the enemy? How often compared to the line infantry?


Thank you, please feel free to separate these questions, or to link me to already answered forum posts, if you find ones that are still relevant.

Offline ConsideringCareers…

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Re: Armoured Crewman Weapons
« Reply #83 on: September 25, 2017, 15:00:50 »
This is not what I was hoping to be linked up with. Almost all from 2005 (like I said I found), the tiny bit from 2017 doesn’t answer any of MY questions, it answers well what a battle captain carries, but I would most likely be an NCM and therefore that does not apply to me (I don’t think, unless of course all armour soldiers are issued pistols).

Offline Tango2Bravo

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Re: Armoured Crewman Weapons
« Reply #84 on: September 25, 2017, 16:11:32 »
Crewman on tanks and recce vehicles will usually have C8s. Crewmen in the echelon and RHQ will usually have C7s. Crew commanders and officers will usually have pistols as well. There are usually a few C9s in the echelon for defence. You can dismount the Ack Ack C6, but its usually better served mounted. My Sqn in 2009 to 2011, for instance, had Coyote creman with C8s, CP/Ech guys with C7s and crew commanders with pistols as well. Bear in mind that things can get different on operations.

If a tank crewman is firing his personal weapon on conventional warfighting operations then something bad has happened. Most of us have personal weapons for self-defence in hides etc. Assault Troop in Recce Sqn is different, though, and they may well seek to use their personal weapons depending on the task.

Regardless, you will fire your personal weapon in training. Crewman should shoot to PWT Level 2 a minimum, with more advanced shoots if you are deploying. Your focus, though, will be on the crew served weapons.
Well-trained, older Panzer crews are the decisive factor for success...It is preferable to start off with fewer Panzers than to set out with young crews who lack combat experience.

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Offline ExRCDcpl

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Re: Armoured Crewman Weapons
« Reply #85 on: September 25, 2017, 16:12:51 »
While admittedly I've been out of the armoured corps for more than a couple years now......I can share with you what we used when we deployed to Afghanistan as a recce sqn......

-Crew commanders and drivers were issued browning pistols.
-All crew members had a C8 with the surveillance operators either having a C8 with an m203 grenade launcher attachment or a C9.
-For dismounted patrols, if necessary the C6 would be removed from the pintle mount to be used as a dismounted GPMG.

Like I said it's been a few years.......however I wouldn't think personal weapons issue has changed drastically, if at all, during that time.

With regards to how often armoured crewmen use personal weapons to engage the enemy?  Too hard to answer definitively.....best answer I can give is we used them when we needed to during dismounted patrols.  That was as a recce sqn though which typically do a lot more dismounted stuff than a tank sqn.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 16:15:40 by ExRCDcpl »

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Re: Armoured Crewman Weapons
« Reply #86 on: September 25, 2017, 16:32:52 »
This is not what I was hoping to be linked up with. Almost all from 2005 (like I said I found), the tiny bit from 2017 doesn’t answer any of MY questions, it answers well what a battle captain carries, but I would most likely be an NCM and therefore that does not apply to me (I don’t think, unless of course all armour soldiers are issued pistols).

Original Post: "I'm wondering what personal weapons the armoured troops use."
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Armoured Crewman Weapons
« Reply #87 on: September 25, 2017, 16:34:30 »
While admittedly I've been out of the armoured corps for more than a couple years now......I can share with you what we used when we deployed to Afghanistan as a recce sqn......

-Crew commanders and drivers were issued browning pistols.
-All crew members had a C8 with the surveillance operators either having a C8 with an m203 grenade launcher attachment or a C9.
-For dismounted patrols, if necessary the C6 would be removed from the pintle mount to be used as a dismounted GPMG.

Like I said it's been a few years.......however I wouldn't think personal weapons issue has changed drastically, if at all, during that time.

With regards to how often armoured crewmen use personal weapons to engage the enemy?  Too hard to answer definitively.....best answer I can give is we used them when we needed to during dismounted patrols.  That was as a recce sqn though which typically do a lot more dismounted stuff than a tank sqn.

Crewman on tanks and recce vehicles will usually have C8s. Crewmen in the echelon and RHQ will usually have C7s. Crew commanders and officers will usually have pistols as well. There are usually a few C9s in the echelon for defence. You can dismount the Ack Ack C6, but its usually better served mounted. My Sqn in 2009 to 2011, for instance, had Coyote creman with C8s, CP/Ech guys with C7s and crew commanders with pistols as well. Bear in mind that things can get different on operations.

If a tank crewman is firing his personal weapon on conventional warfighting operations then something bad has happened. Most of us have personal weapons for self-defence in hides etc. Assault Troop in Recce Sqn is different, though, and they may well seek to use their personal weapons depending on the task.

Regardless, you will fire your personal weapon in training. Crewman should shoot to PWT Level 2 a minimum, with more advanced shoots if you are deploying. Your focus, though, will be on the crew served weapons.


To answer the question of an inquisitive young mind, who has a few years to go before even applying to join the CAF; the above examples are accurate.  Both may be true, all the answers from 2005 may also be true as well, as the CAF has not purchased NEW weapons in over two decades.  What weapon you will be carrying will depend on what job you are filling in an Armour unit; what mission/deployment you may be on; what weapons are available to be issued; and a multitude of other factors.  In the end, you will be issued the weapon(s) you will be required to use, for the mission and time that you will be using them.  There is no permanently defined answer.
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Re: Armoured Crewman Weapons
« Reply #88 on: September 25, 2017, 17:42:44 »
This is not what I was hoping to be linked up with.

You were asking the same question. There was no need to begin a separate thread when one already existed.

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Armoured Crewman Weapons
« Reply #89 on: September 25, 2017, 18:10:41 »
The most widely used Canadian Army weapon.

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Re: Armoured Crewman Weapons
« Reply #90 on: September 25, 2017, 21:32:49 »
Some great replies, thank you all very much! Learning a lot, this is all really interesting stuff.


(George Wallace: I am shooting :fifty: you a PM with another question that has to do with Armour Officer vs NCM, and how all that works, blah blah blah, thanks!)

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Re: Armoured Crewman Weapons
« Reply #91 on: September 25, 2017, 22:23:20 »
Crewman on tanks and recce vehicles will usually have C8s. Crewmen in the echelon and RHQ will usually have C7s. Crew commanders and officers will usually have pistols as well. There are usually a few C9s in the echelon for defence. You can dismount the Ack Ack C6, but its usually better served mounted. My Sqn in 2009 to 2011, for instance, had Coyote creman with C8s, CP/Ech guys with C7s and crew commanders with pistols as well. Bear in mind that things can get different on operations.

If a tank crewman is firing his personal weapon on conventional warfighting operations then something bad has happened. Most of us have personal weapons for self-defence in hides etc. Assault Troop in Recce Sqn is different, though, and they may well seek to use their personal weapons depending on the task.

Regardless, you will fire your personal weapon in training. Crewman should shoot to PWT Level 2 a minimum, with more advanced shoots if you are deploying. Your focus, though, will be on the crew served weapons.

I wanted to ask, I searched the google a few times but didn’t come up with anything describing what it is, so I might as well ask: what is an Echelon? What is an RHQ? And what is CP?

I’m sorry, I just don’t understand all the words and terms used, I am trying to, but there are a lot of them.

Thank you

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Armoured Crewman Weapons
« Reply #92 on: September 25, 2017, 22:31:51 »
Echelon: vehicles and personnel that support the fighting vehicles.

RHQ: Regimental Headquarters.

CP: Command post.
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Re: Armoured Crewman Weapons
« Reply #93 on: September 25, 2017, 22:35:12 »
I wanted to ask, I searched the google a few times but didn’t come up with anything describing what it is, so I might as well ask: what is an Echelon? What is an RHQ? And what is CP?

I’m sorry, I just don’t understand all the words and terms used, I am trying to, but there are a lot of them.

Thank you

Echelon in this context is all the vehicle that support the tanks - think maintainers, ambulance, fuel truck, that sort of thing (a rather simplified answer);

RHQ - Regimental Headquarters - Where the Commanding Officer and his Battle Staff are located;

CP - Command Post - a vehicle or vehicles that the unit or sub-unit uses to control itself with.
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Re: Armoured Crewman Weapons
« Reply #94 on: September 25, 2017, 22:56:16 »
I’m sorry, I just don’t understand all the words and terms used, I am trying to, but there are a lot of them.

Perhaps you will find this helpful,

"Acronyms & Abbreviations of The CAF"
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=17309.0
5 pages.

Canadian Military Acronyms
https://army.ca/wiki/index.php/Canadian_Military_Acronyms#I
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Offline Tango2Bravo

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Re: Armoured Crewman Weapons
« Reply #95 on: September 25, 2017, 23:35:47 »
We do enjoy cloaking our message with terminology. A squadron has an F Echelon that includes the fighting vehicles and command vehicles. It also has an A1 Echelon and an A2 Echelon that each carry a day of supplies as well as the vital medics and technicians. There is also a B Echelon that has the Squadron Quartermaster Storesman (SQMS), the Baggage Truck and the Kitchen! Crewmen are found in all these echelons.

As a Crewman, you will usually start in one of the "Troops." You would be a driver/surveillance operator/gunner on a Coyote/TAPV/Leopard. You move into new positions within the Troop as required.  The Squadron Sergeant Major (SSM), runs the A1 echelon and also picks the people for the A2 echelon that includes all the support vehicles. Some of those are crewed by Maintainers, while others are crewed by Crewmen. The SSM wants experienced soldiers that can get things done, and they also serve as a ready pool of people that cover vacant positions on the tanks/Coyotes. Occasionally new soldiers go straight into the echelon, but this is not the ideal. In Kabul, for instance, our SQMS had four veteran Corporals because their work had an impact on the whole squadron.

Manning in a squadron is the business of the SSM. As a Squadron Commander I deferred manning decisions to the SSM, with the exception of making a few demands about my own crew! The SSM will ensure that the soldiers gain the experience they need to be effective Sergeants/Warrant Officers.

There is lots of variety for Crewmen, especially if you have some drive and ability.
Well-trained, older Panzer crews are the decisive factor for success...It is preferable to start off with fewer Panzers than to set out with young crews who lack combat experience.

 - Verbal report of Gen Balck 1943

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Re: Armoured Crewman Weapons
« Reply #96 on: September 25, 2017, 23:54:14 »
There is lots of variety for Crewmen, especially if you have some drive and ability.
                                                                                          ^^^  This is true for every trade/classification I've seen.

If you show drive and ability, the CAF will support you as you try different trade specialties, remustering, out-of-job opportunities, etc....  If you just decide that you're bored, but have/display no initiative, then the gaining 'group' is unlikely to accept you, even if the current organization is more than happy to dump you elsewhere.


[Mods: doesn't fit the Weapons topic, but I felt it was relevant to the T2B post; move as required]

Offline ConsideringCareers…

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Re: Armoured Crewman Weapons
« Reply #97 on: September 26, 2017, 08:44:19 »
We do enjoy cloaking our message with terminology. A squadron has an F Echelon that includes the fighting vehicles and command vehicles. It also has an A1 Echelon and an A2 Echelon that each carry a day of supplies as well as the vital medics and technicians. There is also a B Echelon that has the Squadron Quartermaster Storesman (SQMS), the Baggage Truck and the Kitchen! Crewmen are found in all these echelons.

As a Crewman, you will usually start in one of the "Troops." You would be a driver/surveillance operator/gunner on a Coyote/TAPV/Leopard. You move into new positions within the Troop as required.  The Squadron Sergeant Major (SSM), runs the A1 echelon and also picks the people for the A2 echelon that includes all the support vehicles. Some of those are crewed by Maintainers, while others are crewed by Crewmen. The SSM wants experienced soldiers that can get things done, and they also serve as a ready pool of people that cover vacant positions on the tanks/Coyotes. Occasionally new soldiers go straight into the echelon, but this is not the ideal. In Kabul, for instance, our SQMS had four veteran Corporals because their work had an impact on the whole squadron.

Manning in a squadron is the business of the SSM. As a Squadron Commander I deferred manning decisions to the SSM, with the exception of making a few demands about my own crew! The SSM will ensure that the soldiers gain the experience they need to be effective Sergeants/Warrant Officers.

There is lots of variety for Crewmen, especially if you have some drive and ability.

So, and Echelon is a group of armoured vehicles operating together? Would this be somewhat correct? And they guys in the Echelon are the ones manning these vehicles? Or are they dismounts walking alongside these vehicles?

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Re: Armoured Crewman Weapons
« Reply #98 on: September 26, 2017, 08:45:45 »
Echelon in this context is all the vehicle that support the tanks - think maintainers, ambulance, fuel truck, that sort of thing (a rather simplified answer);

RHQ - Regimental Headquarters - Where the Commanding Officer and his Battle Staff are located;

CP - Command Post - a vehicle or vehicles that the unit or sub-unit uses to control itself with.

Thank you, screenshotted this!

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Re: Armoured Crewman Weapons
« Reply #99 on: September 26, 2017, 10:32:07 »
So, and Echelon is a group of armoured vehicles operating together? Would this be somewhat correct?

Somewhat.

There are tactical groupings, ie troop, squadron, regiment (Armour/Engineer) and platoon, company, battalion (Infantry) etcetera.

The echelon concept is overlaid on this.

The "F" in "F Echelon" stands for "Fighting". That would consist of the Leopards, Coyotes, and LAVs and their crews, organized into squadrons/companies and troops/platoons.

They can only carry a limited amount of ammunition, fuel, food, and water etcetera, which, during a long move or following an engagement, need to be quickly replenished. Additional quantities of those, and other support requirements, are carried by the A and B Echelons, which follow behind the F Echelon at various distances (they don't want to be too close and become engaged themselves, and don't want to be too far behind that it takes too long to catch up).

The F Echelon is the teeth. The A and B Echelons are the tail. A regiment or battalion's A and B Echelons could extend many kilometres behind the F Echelon.

This is only a simple explanation.

The conduct of operations in the field is far more complex than most people realize.