Author Topic: Alcoholism  (Read 35117 times)

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Offline ModlrMike

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Re: Alcoholism
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2016, 12:03:02 »
MY QUESTION - does a doc have the authority to order me to piss in a cup on a regular basis as part of 'medical treatment/observation' as condition for lifting a TCAT for (presumably) alcohol dependency (which in itself contradicts the expert opinion)? May not be an answer out there, but I know there are a lot of smart/experienced people here.

Yes. The Medical Officer has absolute discretion to award a T-Cat after taking ALL of the recommendations into account. I suggest that you read DAOD 5019-7. Part 8 answers your question. The remaining parts bear keeping in mind.
WARNING: The consumption of alcohol may create the illusion that you are tougher,smarter, faster and better looking than most people.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. (H.L. Mencken 1919)
Zero tolerance is the politics of the lazy. All it requires is that you do nothing and ban everything.

Offline Stuck_in_a_Cubicle

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Re: Alcoholism
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2016, 13:29:32 »
ModlrMike,

Thanks for the reply. I had already read the DAOD. Not 100% sure what you mean by "Part 8", as it's not numbered (at least on the version I'm looking at on the DWAN), but I assume you mean the section entitled "Treatment and Rehabilitation".

Ack that the doc has final auth on TCAT, treatment, etc. I was really just questioning his auth to piss test someone, which would be categorized as "control testing" (compliance) which is normally associated with Administrative Action (IAW DAOD 5019-3), whereas abstention from alcohol and regular counselling sessions is prescribed medical treatment.

Offline ModlrMike

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Re: Alcoholism
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2016, 13:49:00 »
Two points:

a. the command to submit to testing is not manifestly unlawful; and
b. confirming that the member is compliant with treatment falls well within the very broad scope of the MO's responsibility and authority. Mechanisms to ensure same also do.
WARNING: The consumption of alcohol may create the illusion that you are tougher,smarter, faster and better looking than most people.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. (H.L. Mencken 1919)
Zero tolerance is the politics of the lazy. All it requires is that you do nothing and ban everything.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Alcoholism
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2016, 15:58:14 »
I'm more concerned with the amount of time it took for your CofC to direct the medical referral and the RMs in the form of your RW, which they seemed to link together.
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Offline Stuck_in_a_Cubicle

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Re: Alcoholism
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2016, 16:13:37 »
Eye in the Sky - yeah, the whole process was long and ridiculous, but that's behind me and I'm not fighting something that's already in the past. What irks me is that the alcohol-related conduct (binge drinking at a work social event with adverse behaviour) was over a year ago, was the first such incident, and has not recurred. More importantly, an addictions expert has assessed that I don't have an alcohol dependency. What more 'proof' do they need that I have this behavioural problem under control?

ModlrMike - you're right, it's not manifestly unlawful, but in the case of drug testing it is DAOD 5019-3 that outlines when and how you can do it (cause, control, blind, safety, etc), based on QR&Os, and that is what provides the specific authority to do it, and if you don't do it IAW those guidelines you have no leg to stand on. I just can't find a similar regulation, order or directive that authorizes a doc or anyone to test for alcohol consumption (note that alcohol is specifically excluded from DAOD 5019-3).

Offline ModlrMike

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Re: Alcoholism
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2016, 17:32:10 »
Eye in the Sky - yeah, the whole process was long and ridiculous, but that's behind me and I'm not fighting something that's already in the past. What irks me is that the alcohol-related conduct (binge drinking at a work social event with adverse behaviour) was over a year ago, was the first such incident, and has not recurred. More importantly, an addictions expert has assessed that I don't have an alcohol dependency. What more 'proof' do they need that I have this behavioural problem under control?

ModlrMike - you're right, it's not manifestly unlawful, but in the case of drug testing it is DAOD 5019-3 that outlines when and how you can do it (cause, control, blind, safety, etc), based on QR&Os, and that is what provides the specific authority to do it, and if you don't do it IAW those guidelines you have no leg to stand on. I just can't find a similar regulation, order or directive that authorizes a doc or anyone to test for alcohol consumption (note that alcohol is specifically excluded from DAOD 5019-3).

Stop tying yourself up in knots. Take the high road - "I'm not sure how I feel about this testing, but I'll do it to show that I'm holding up my end of the bargain." To do otherwise might make people think you have something to hide.

I know that it would energize my spidy senses if you were my patient and challenged a request for testing.
WARNING: The consumption of alcohol may create the illusion that you are tougher,smarter, faster and better looking than most people.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. (H.L. Mencken 1919)
Zero tolerance is the politics of the lazy. All it requires is that you do nothing and ban everything.

Offline Stuck_in_a_Cubicle

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Re: Alcoholism
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2016, 08:35:46 »
Tying myself up in knots? I'm simply trying to understand a process with which I am largely unfamiliar, instead of being a pinball bouncing around in the blind. Isn't the point of this forum to have intelligent and facts-based discussion?

Of course I'll take the high road and comply with whatever I'm told to do (as I always do), even if I think his decision is unjustified based on all the other facts.

As for bargains, I was ordered (both verbally by my CoC, and via remedial measure) to refrain from drinking excessively and conducting myself poorly - I have kept that bargain for over a year, and will continue to do so. I don't understand why this guy thinks a new 'bargain' is required, but I do understand that it's his prerogative to make that conclusion - doesn't mean I have to like it.

Offline Stuck_in_a_Cubicle

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Re: Alcoholism
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2016, 13:00:50 »
Just thought I'd close the loop on my part of this discussion. The MO ended up re-considering and is happy with me following up on my own with the addictions counsellor every few months. My mission remains to never put myself in a similar situation again. All's well that ends well.

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Alcoholism
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2016, 19:33:00 »
My mission remains to never put myself in a similar situation again. All's well that ends well.

Glad it all worked out for you in the end. We all %$@ up sometimes, but it takes a real professional to admit you did it, and take those visible and hard steps to fix it, especially with the stigma of alcoholism (albeit yours was an isolated incident).