Author Topic: New RMC duty dress?  (Read 22533 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline loyalist

  • Think of something clever when you see this
  • New Member
  • **
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 47
New RMC duty dress?
« on: January 05, 2006, 11:21:29 »
For those of you who don't know, the current RMC duty dress (winter) is a distinctive RMC uniform of blue pants with red stripes and suspenders, a whte shirt(navy), black tie (navy/air force), KP (wedge-like dark blue forage cap made of thicker wool and a chin strap), boots or oxfords and a 1949-pattern battle blouse (blue) with squadron and class insignia on the shoulder of the sleeve with rank (bars) on the shoulder. Gloves (standard CF dress issue), either summer or winter, a black navy overcoat and astrokhan are all options during the winter  In the summer, a shirt sleeve navy shirt with epaullettes carry the class/squadron insignia and RMC rank, KP, ceremonial tri-colour belt are worn.

Recently, proposals have been put forward for changes to the RMC duty dress for purposes of svaing on dry-cleaning and CF integration. The options have been CADPAT (worn about once weekly as it is), DEU's (worn about once a week), a replacement for the battle blouse, or a washable, Australian-style uniform distinctive to RMC.

As reg force/reserve personnel (cadets, sorry, im looking for a particular viewpoint and if any of you have questions, PM me, please) and what do you tink of RMC having a distinctive uniform and what would be your preferred course-of-action?
"C'est impossible! Ah, les Canadiens? C'est possible!"
French soldier learning of the Canadian captue of Vimy ridge.

Offline loyalist

  • Think of something clever when you see this
  • New Member
  • **
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 47
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2006, 19:58:37 »
The argument against that is that it would encourage divisions between the various elements at the college - one of the main reasons for having a distinctive RMC uniform. Also, it is not very popular wtih cadets as we'd have to bear dry-cleaning costs off our own salaries - which, as net salaries, aren't spectaculr to begin.
"C'est impossible! Ah, les Canadiens? C'est possible!"
French soldier learning of the Canadian captue of Vimy ridge.

Offline The Fighting 47th

  • New Member
  • **
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 39
  • They took the flying fortress up to 40,000 ft...
    • 2316 RCACC
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2006, 20:18:21 »
I like the current duty dress the way it is. Yes, it does cost a little more in dry cleaning, but that would be just the battle blouses, b/c we'd need to keep the pants anyways for wear with scarlets and patrol blues.
The college should just build its own dry cleaning facility, IMO ;D
Only during magic shows and military working hours are the rules of logic suspended.

Offline GO!!!

  • Fallen Comrade
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 0
  • Posts: 1,851
  • Often have I regretted my speech, never my silence
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2006, 20:24:23 »
As future leaders, I don't see a problem with you bearing the cost of dry cleaning. The rest of us already have to, with the loss of the clothing upkeep allowance.

Lets keep in mind that Privates are expected to purchase their own accoutrements (100-170$) and maintain all of their uniforms and equipment as well on a "less than spectacular salary"


No leader was ever hated for being too hard, but a great many were for attempting to appear that way.

Offline Michael O'Leary

  • The moral high ground cannot be dominated by fire alone, it must be occupied to be claimed as held.
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 312,730
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,647
    • The Regimental Rogue
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2006, 22:08:29 »
In what regiment are Privates purchasing $100-170 in accoutrements? And what are they buying? I known the The RCR every new soldier is given his (her) first set.

Offline GO!!!

  • Fallen Comrade
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 0
  • Posts: 1,851
  • Often have I regretted my speech, never my silence
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2006, 22:15:40 »
There are other regiments?  ;D

All new Patricias must purchase their own, and they are'nt the polishable brass ones either, they are the crappy anodized ones.

Add it in with the mandatory PT gear, and it is not uncommon to see brand new troops being hit up for $200-plus by the ever-benevolent regimental "family".

Sorry Hammy, but it's true.

No leader was ever hated for being too hard, but a great many were for attempting to appear that way.

Offline George Wallace

  • Army.ca Fossil
  • *****
  • 432,110
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 31,517
  • Crewman
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2006, 22:18:43 »
In what regiment are Privates purchasing $100-170 in accoutrements? And what are they buying? I known the The RCR every new soldier is given his (her) first set.
Not unusual for many Ptes in the Units to make purchases that size in the Kit Shops, especially in winter, buying Regimental accoutrements and PT Gear.

I was surprised to see Ptes spend up to $250 at a shot in the Kit Shop.
DISCLAIMER: The opinions and arguments of George Wallace posted on this Site are solely those of George Wallace and not the opinion of Army.ca and are posted for information purposes only.
Unless so stated, they are reflective of my opinion -- and my opinion only, a right that I enjoy along with every other Canadian citizen.

Offline Michael O'Leary

  • The moral high ground cannot be dominated by fire alone, it must be occupied to be claimed as held.
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 312,730
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,647
    • The Regimental Rogue
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2006, 22:20:30 »
Voluntary purcahses are one thing, my question was addressing required items, such as DEU accoutrements.

Offline SF2

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 3,245
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 496
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2006, 22:28:27 »
how does wearing DEU's save on dry cleaning?  Do you not dry clean your RMC uniforms?  We did when I was there.

Offline The Fighting 47th

  • New Member
  • **
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 39
  • They took the flying fortress up to 40,000 ft...
    • 2316 RCACC
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2006, 22:32:55 »
short, as of 1 Jan 06, RMC dry cleaning no longer accepts anything DEU (save for the CMC (navy) great coat. Therefore, the cost of dry cleaning DEU items now falls onto the individual OCdt.
Only during magic shows and military working hours are the rules of logic suspended.

Offline Grunt_031

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Member
  • *
  • 3,002
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 191
  • Civilian WFE Tech
    • Defence Medals
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2006, 22:48:11 »
Quote
All new Patricias must purchase their own, and they are'nt the polishable brass ones either, they are the crappy anodized ones.

They are brass but not the good stuff we use to get. All New Patricia's are given a Brass cap badge and a Regimental Coin but everything else is bought.

Offline Daidalous

  • Member
  • ****
  • 955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 174
  • Ex- Forester
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2006, 00:03:18 »
Such items that young Pte's buy are  there regiment insignia  on there belts.  I had to buy one, regimental t-shirts for PT, regimental shorts,   running pants and  sweater.   You are not forced with a  gun to your head   but it is very strongly encouraged to buy it.
Member of The Frozen Chosen

Offline ArmyVern

    is awake.

  • Army.ca Myth
  • *****
  • 207,601
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15,501
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2006, 00:38:30 »
Therefore, the cost of dry cleaning DEU items now falls onto the individual OCdt.
You mean just like it does for all other Officers/NCMs of the CF?
Hard by MCpl Elton Adams

If you or someone you love is having difficulty & would like to speak to someone who has been through a similar experience, who understands, & will respect your need for privacy and confidentiality, contact OSISS toll-free at 1-800-883-6094. You can locate the peer closest to you by logging on to www.osiss.ca, clicking on “Contact us” link & then choosing the “Peer” or “Family Support Network”. Help IS out there.

Offline ArmyVern

    is awake.

  • Army.ca Myth
  • *****
  • 207,601
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15,501
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2006, 00:41:02 »
There are other regiments?  ;D

All new Patricias must purchase their own, and they are'nt the polishable brass ones either, they are the crappy anodized ones.

Add it in with the mandatory PT gear, and it is not uncommon to see brand new troops being hit up for $200-plus by the ever-benevolent regimental "family".

Sorry Hammy, but it's true.
Well the RCRs, at least the ones in this location, are issued their first set of PT gear through their QM.
Hard by MCpl Elton Adams

If you or someone you love is having difficulty & would like to speak to someone who has been through a similar experience, who understands, & will respect your need for privacy and confidentiality, contact OSISS toll-free at 1-800-883-6094. You can locate the peer closest to you by logging on to www.osiss.ca, clicking on “Contact us” link & then choosing the “Peer” or “Family Support Network”. Help IS out there.

Offline GO!!!

  • Fallen Comrade
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 0
  • Posts: 1,851
  • Often have I regretted my speech, never my silence
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2006, 00:52:43 »
Such items that young Pte's buy are  there regiment insignia  on there belts.  I had to buy one, regimental t-shirts for PT, regimental shorts,   running pants and  sweater.   You are not forced with a  gun to your head   but it is very strongly encouraged to buy it.

 ::) You have a gift for understatement.

A full set of accoutrements includes;

Cap Badge
Collar dogs (2)
Shoulder tabs (2)
Lg Buttons (4)
Small Buttons (4)
Ceremonial Regimental Belt buckle

PT Gear includes;
Regimental T-shirt, Shorts, Sweater, Sweatpants. The T-shirts at the 3VP canteen are 18-26$, and the track suit is 60-100, depending on which one you buy. But the Para coy got a free hat!  :)

It is not alot of $ in the big scheme of things ($200), but it is often being asked of brand new privates, who are busy trying to establish spouses and kids in new homes, in a new city and out of their first Private IPC 1 paycheque.

So yes, I think it is the Regiment cashing in where they should not be. In the past it was justified with the CUA, but that is gone now.

No leader was ever hated for being too hard, but a great many were for attempting to appear that way.

Offline ArmyVern

    is awake.

  • Army.ca Myth
  • *****
  • 207,601
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15,501
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2006, 01:24:52 »
::) You have a gift for understatement.
He certainly does...and Daidalous, I'm very interested to hear just what Regiment this was. Certainly not 8 Wg Sup Sqn.
A full set of accoutrements includes;
Cap Badge
Collar dogs (2)
Shoulder tabs (2)
Lg Buttons (4)
Small Buttons (4)
Ceremonial Regimental Belt buckle
Go, I'm curious as to exactly which items above your Unit personnel have to purchase. The first 3 you have listed are issued by Clothing Stores. CUA disappearing plays no role, as these items are also exchangeable.
As to the last 3 you have listed, again they are optional (as the standard Army Lions, Air Eagles and Naval Anchors/DEU belt are issued) but as Daidalous puts it "strongly encouraged."
PT Gear includes;
Regimental T-shirt, Shorts, Sweater, Sweatpants. The T-shirts at the 3VP canteen are 18-26$, and the track suit is 60-100, depending on which one you buy. But the Para coy got a free hat!  :)
As I said before, the RCRs here have their first set issued to them and buy relacements after that. In Pet, and here, I was also issued my first set of "madatory PT Gear" through my QM and had to purchase replacements as required.
CUA was never intended for PT gear (it was strictly to purchase DEU uniforms IAW CFAOs) so if that's what your Unit was quoting as their reasoning for NOT issuing (at least a 1st set) PT gear they considered 'mandatory', your Unit was way off the mark.
Hard by MCpl Elton Adams

If you or someone you love is having difficulty & would like to speak to someone who has been through a similar experience, who understands, & will respect your need for privacy and confidentiality, contact OSISS toll-free at 1-800-883-6094. You can locate the peer closest to you by logging on to www.osiss.ca, clicking on “Contact us” link & then choosing the “Peer” or “Family Support Network”. Help IS out there.

Offline George Wallace

  • Army.ca Fossil
  • *****
  • 432,110
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 31,517
  • Crewman
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2006, 11:11:35 »
Well the RCRs, at least the ones in this location, are issued their first set of PT gear through their QM.
That may be true of that Unit.  Not all Units do the same.  The RCR and PPCLI also require all their members to pay Regimental Dues, which I would imagine with time would far out do the cost that RMC Cadets may be complaining about.

Yes, Clothing Stores do issue many of these accoutrement's to members.  In the RCD, for instance, there is the Cap Badge issued by Clothing Stores that a new RCD may receive on Grad Parade, and the much better quality one that he will buy in the Kit Shop to bring to a highly polished shine.  In most cases, individuals must purchase a second set of accoutrement's, or more, to properly accessorize their uniforms.

When I first arrived at the RCD in Germany, the Regiment was 'wealthy' and I got a free initial issue of Regimental accoutrement's.  That practice no longer exists.  Other Regiments are much the same.  They do not compell their members to pay monthly Regimental Dues, until they are Senior NCOs (voluntary payment) or Officers, as is the practice with the Infantry Regiments.

DISCLAIMER: The opinions and arguments of George Wallace posted on this Site are solely those of George Wallace and not the opinion of Army.ca and are posted for information purposes only.
Unless so stated, they are reflective of my opinion -- and my opinion only, a right that I enjoy along with every other Canadian citizen.

Offline RecceDG

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 30
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 491
  • Carpe terram inferam!
    • Far North Racing
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2006, 12:04:00 »
How times have changed - I remember when CMR installed washers & dryers in the shacks for the first time, ending the use of the laundry service for *all* laundry, not just dry cleaning. That was a great day, because although now we had to do our own laundry (chewing another chunk of time out of an already busy day) at least clothes didn't smell like diesel any more, and you could wash something more than 10 times before holes got eaten into it by cleaning solvents.

Interesting decision, that RMC dry cleaning won't do CFs any more - what's the justification there? It's not like CFs get worn very often. The only time I wore mine was on summer courses.

GO, going from MilCol OCdt to no-hook Pte was a *huge* pay raise. In my day, OCdts got paid next to nothing.

As far as the dress goes, I think it's totally necessary to keep a distinctive Cadet dress.

DG
D. Grant

Wenn ist das Nunstück git und Slotermeyer? Ja! ... Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.

Offline Big Foot

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 240
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 762
  • Muda, mura, and muri everywhere I look...
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2006, 12:25:39 »
The RCR and PPCLI also require all their members to pay Regimental Dues, which I would imagine with time would far out do the cost that RMC Cadets may be complaining about.
George, from my understanding of how the College is working at the moment, our dry cleaning is being paid for out of our mess dues, which at $50/month, covers a lot of ground. What is interesting is the fact that RMC is saying we can still dry clean for free the stuff we wear all the time but the uniform we rarely wear, no. It simply does not make sense.
It's not insubordinate if you know exactly where the line is and walk on it but never cross it.

Offline Daidalous

  • Member
  • ****
  • 955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 174
  • Ex- Forester
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2006, 23:41:20 »
Army Vern

I had to buy these items when I was in the Reserves.   G&SF Barrie.

We did not buy any collar dogs, large or small buttons, because they were issued to us with are uniform, and it was not strongly recommend to buy.
Member of The Frozen Chosen

Offline GO!!!

  • Fallen Comrade
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 0
  • Posts: 1,851
  • Often have I regretted my speech, never my silence
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2006, 01:46:29 »
That may be true of that Unit.  Not all Units do the same.  The RCR and PPCLI also require all their members to pay Regimental Dues, which I would imagine with time would far out do the cost that RMC Cadets may be complaining about.

They do not compell their members to pay monthly Regimental Dues, until they are Senior NCOs (voluntary payment) or Officers, as is the practice with the Infantry Regiments.

George, these statements appear to contradict each other - I know that in my unit, we are shaken down by the mafia strongly encouraged by a dedicated cadre of SNCOs to voluntarily contribute with a monthly deduction. ;)

Quote
Go, I'm curious as to exactly which items above your Unit personnel have to purchase. The first 3 you have listed are issued by Clothing Stores. CUA disappearing plays no role, as these items are also exchangeable.
As to the last 3 you have listed, again they are optional (as the standard Army Lions, Air Eagles and Naval Anchors/DEU belt are issued) but as Daidalous puts it "strongly encouraged."
In Edmonton, they tell us to "see your regimental kitshop".

And I would love to see the fireworks when someone showed up to a DEU event wearing the CF Lion buttons, and saying "Why yes you did suggest that I buy the 40$ set from the kitshop RSM, but I chose not to"  ;D

No leader was ever hated for being too hard, but a great many were for attempting to appear that way.

R031button

  • Guest
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2006, 02:22:33 »
The argument against that is that it would encourage divisions between the various elements at the college - one of the main reasons for having a distinctive RMC uniform. Also, it is not very popular wtih cadets as we'd have to bear dry-cleaning costs off our own salaries - which, as net salaries, aren't spectaculr to begin.

Man, I'm a student, I do a full course load. In addition to that I'm a reservist and I work another job at the same time. I don't come close to a grand a month, and i still pay for my own food, clothes, washing and drying. So don't complain about what your getting at RMC, your getting a good ride man... err.... sir. I envy you... and then I see you looking like a bellhop  :blotto:

Offline GO!!!

  • Fallen Comrade
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 0
  • Posts: 1,851
  • Often have I regretted my speech, never my silence
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2006, 02:47:30 »
Man, I'm a student, I do a full course load. In addition to that I'm a reservist and I work another job at the same time. I don't come close to a grand a month, and i still pay for my own food, clothes, washing and drying. So don't complain about what your getting at RMC, your getting a good ride man... err.... sir. I envy you... and then I see you looking like a bellhop  :blotto:

AMEN.

(and you don't need to call them "sir" until they show up as a Pl Comd - until then you can point and laugh!)
No leader was ever hated for being too hard, but a great many were for attempting to appear that way.

Offline GO!!!

  • Fallen Comrade
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 0
  • Posts: 1,851
  • Often have I regretted my speech, never my silence
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2006, 23:23:13 »
Lets not forget that the Cpls and up in the platoon all make more than their junior officer, and are signed to shorter contracts.

No leader was ever hated for being too hard, but a great many were for attempting to appear that way.

Offline beach_bum

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 8,435
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,379
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2006, 00:05:33 »
Many members of the CF (outside of RMC) have to wear DEUs regularly and pay for them to be cleaned.  Prime example is the recruiting centre.  During the time I worked there, we had to wear DEUs almost every day.  Obviously, we needed to clean them, and I can guarantee that I spent more than $50 a month on that.  That came straight out of my pocket as well.  No sympathy here.
Eddie would go!

R031button

  • Guest
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2006, 01:01:30 »
Lets not forget that the Cpls and up in the platoon all make more than their junior officer, and are signed to shorter contracts.



 yeah but those Cpl's didn't get a 4 year degree with a job, room, and board tossed in to sweeten the deal, which i'd guesse to we worth at least $75,000, not counting the benifits of that piece of paper :P

Offline George Wallace

  • Army.ca Fossil
  • *****
  • 432,110
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 31,517
  • Crewman
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2006, 08:04:41 »
Many members of the CF (outside of RMC) have to wear DEUs regularly and pay for them to be cleaned.  Prime example is the recruiting centre.  During the time I worked there, we had to wear DEUs almost every day.  Obviously, we needed to clean them, and I can guarantee that I spent more than $50 a month on that.  That came straight out of my pocket as well.  No sympathy here.
I am getting the feeling that this discussion is now taking the semblance of a parent disciplining a child on the responsible use of their allowance.  The child is trying to remain in the parents graces and riding on their coat tails in order to avoid the use of their allowance to buy or maintain articles in their wardrobe, previously purchased by their parents in the past.  Now they have matured and are being weened off the tit, and they are whining about it.

It is a fact that the CF is now into Cost Accounting in a big way and every penny is accounted for.  I am sure everyone will agree that this had to eventually cascade down to the 'students' at RMC.
DISCLAIMER: The opinions and arguments of George Wallace posted on this Site are solely those of George Wallace and not the opinion of Army.ca and are posted for information purposes only.
Unless so stated, they are reflective of my opinion -- and my opinion only, a right that I enjoy along with every other Canadian citizen.

Offline Strike

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 27,046
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,416
  • Welcome to the Dead Parrot's Society.
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2006, 09:29:57 »
Okay, how do you see an OCdt taking home $1000/month?  The most they would get paid is $1412/month.  Now, subtract taxes, cost of shacks and food, and that wonderful $50/month in mess fees (I think we paid $45 when I was there) and you're lucky to see $350/ paycheck in your pocket.  This will already be used for phone bill, supplies (paper, pens, a half decent calculator), computer, etc, and you barely have enough to take someone out to dinner and a movie.

Add to this that the OR likes to take away any overpayments right around Christmas time.  It's not enough to go on and any little extra burden adds to an already stressed life.
Stop assuming I'm a man!

Don't know how long I want to keep playing this game...

Offline Strike

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 27,046
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,416
  • Welcome to the Dead Parrot's Society.
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2006, 11:37:57 »
Quote
Know how much my room and board costs?

If you live in shacks, probably about the same amount that they pay.  If you don't than that is your own choice for paying that much.
Stop assuming I'm a man!

Don't know how long I want to keep playing this game...

Offline Strike

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 27,046
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,416
  • Welcome to the Dead Parrot's Society.
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2006, 13:26:08 »
...like not having to wear a uniform every day that needs to be dry cleaned.   ;D
Stop assuming I'm a man!

Don't know how long I want to keep playing this game...

Offline Daidalous

  • Member
  • ****
  • 955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 174
  • Ex- Forester
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2006, 18:21:40 »
What I do not understand is why RMC students would complain about dry cleaning bills.  I understand that Officer Cadets are not making alot of money.  So was ever enlisted personwho has been in for more than 10 years when they first joined .   I know they make less than a Pte while in RMC, but once they get out it is all gravy from there, with no student loans .

Ref is right here   http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/media/pdf/other/RegularForcePay.pdf

  A Level 1 Pte makes $2421 a month  while a Basic Officer Cadet makes $1328. Sure that is a big difference.  BUT  once you obtain your so call career rank.   A Cpl 4   makes $4303 or  Spec 2 $5017 While a Capt 4  makes $6051 WOW  with level 10 at $6591  with no specail pay what ever.  Suck it up for only 4 years,  once you graduate your pay goes up to $3806.  Welcome to Cpl pay range. 

In the words of my first Mcpl.    "They underpay officers cadets so they know what it's like to live like a young Pte."
Member of The Frozen Chosen

Offline GO!!!

  • Fallen Comrade
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 0
  • Posts: 1,851
  • Often have I regretted my speech, never my silence
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2006, 22:35:51 »
I must add my voice to those who think OCdts have nothing to complain about - again.

My wife, myself and all of my friends who stayed in University were/are all saddled with enormous student loans - try 15 - 55,000!

It takes many students in excess of a decade to pay off these loans.

You are given your education, in exchange for five to seven years of guaranteed employment in an above - average paying job for entry level undergrad degrees. I do my university courses in my off time, and I have to pay for them - plus books. If I pass, the military will re-imburse me, when they are damn good and ready.

You are paid to go to school for free - and are guaranteed a job on graduation - how are you still complaining?

This does not include the free medical and dental, no hassle of finding a summer job, missing a changed registration deadline, finding inaccessible or apathetic profs,  or the joy of commuting from a crappy part of town to a sprawling campus - you have a great arrangement, and a bright future, so take your complaints about your five dollar dry cleaning bill and stuff it.  :-*

No leader was ever hated for being too hard, but a great many were for attempting to appear that way.

Offline Feral

  • Member
  • ****
  • 30
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 180
  • Profile cleaned.
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2006, 23:06:06 »
And I'd like to tell ALL students to stop complaning. You (we) all chose to be where you are, you know that university (civvie or RMC) is an investment that requires some hardship but has a good payoff in the end. Suck it up. If you don't want to suffer through the long commute or the crappy housing or the endless studying, go contribute to society in another way. Get a job as a tradesperson. Nothing wrong with that. But don't expect tears because no one forces anyone into university.

R031button

  • Guest
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2006, 01:59:52 »
You realize that trades courses are usually the same money as a univeristy degree right? And that tools and steel toed boots don't come cheap, espeically when you have to buy books along with them. Trades is by no means the alternate way to save more money.

Offline loyalist

  • Think of something clever when you see this
  • New Member
  • **
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 47
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2006, 08:59:30 »
..whoa. I think that i've misinterpreted.

I have nmot been complaining, I merely listed the points brought up in the discussion, including dry-cleaning costs. Of course, I'm welcomed by the usual "everybodt hates the ring-knockers" sitcom-esque declaration about how we either get paid too much, have it too easy, aren't really students,  dont get piad all that much but damn well deserve not to, or some civvie U guy rambling off about how it sucks to be at RMC because you can skip the gym and basically do no military training all winter.

I was hoping for more opinions about what non-RMCers thought about the College having a different duty dress than everyone else. I really cna't complain about our pay, I don't have a car, outstanding debts or any expensive hobbies. on the issues of a duty dress - i'm really on the fence baout this one, and it looks like they're going to drop the No.5's. The end of an era,I guess, and I sort of mourn for the loss of yet another RMC tradition.
"C'est impossible! Ah, les Canadiens? C'est possible!"
French soldier learning of the Canadian captue of Vimy ridge.

Offline Daidalous

  • Member
  • ****
  • 955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 174
  • Ex- Forester
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2006, 12:41:30 »
Keep the one you have now.  All a unit or formation has is it's heritage, and that dress uniform is your heritage.
Member of The Frozen Chosen

Offline geo

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 25,765
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,643
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2006, 14:14:05 »
If RMC is paying for the dry cleaning of your "RMC duty dress" uniform.....
don't look at a gift horse in the mouth - continue to use em!
Chimo!

Offline loyalist

  • Think of something clever when you see this
  • New Member
  • **
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 47
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2006, 19:16:14 »
I reiterate that I was listing the arguments. Salaries are part of the argument. As I've said, I'd really have no problem with paying the costs of DEU dry-cleaning.

Anyhow, keep in mind that it's usually not to easy for an RMCer to relax and unwind on a Wednesday :p.

The two schools of thought are, really:
1) RMC should be run like a regular CF regiment. We's still have our regimental uniforms (scarlets, no.4's - a sort of less formal garrison dress) and the RMC PT kit. But regular CF regiments do day-to-day activities in combats/DEU, after all, we're CF first, RMC second.

2) RMC is by it's very nature, unique. It always has been unique, what we do is unique and it only makes sense to have unique duty uniforms! Sometimes the DoD is combats/DEU. Since we have avery unique role, RMC first, CF second.


Really, I'm very much on the fence, as I'm equally proud to be in the CF and RMC, plus, there's nothing I can do about it, so I'll just learn as much as I can and roll with it.
"C'est impossible! Ah, les Canadiens? C'est possible!"
French soldier learning of the Canadian captue of Vimy ridge.

Offline Daidalous

  • Member
  • ****
  • 955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 174
  • Ex- Forester
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2006, 21:56:25 »
No RMC should not be run like regular CF regiments.   People in regiments are trained personal, Troops in RMC have completed there training.  RMC should be run as a training environment, because you are training.
Member of The Frozen Chosen

Offline Strike

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 27,046
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,416
  • Welcome to the Dead Parrot's Society.
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2006, 10:14:14 »
Quote
You guys don't do any military training all winter either.

Right, because parades, PD lecture weekends, hitting the ranges, etc, are NOT considered military training.  If you mean they don't do courses such as phase training, you are right.  But they do get a helluva lot of PD and staff stuff out of the way as well as most of the common training require of an officer.
Stop assuming I'm a man!

Don't know how long I want to keep playing this game...

Offline loyalist

  • Think of something clever when you see this
  • New Member
  • **
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 47
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2006, 17:57:19 »
This isn't about your opinion of RMC. The fact is, like it or not, RMC is a military institution and your "not having heard of rnage weekends" doesn't qualify as an argument. This is about whether you think RMC should have a distinctive duty dress. Thank you to all who have and will contribute, but I will not stand for someone trying to degenerate this into "RMC sucks" or "RMC vs. the World" shouting match. If you dn't want to be here, that's fine with me, but I worked damn hard to be here and stay here.

If you're bored, you can give yourself some drill training in your local parking lot.
"C'est impossible! Ah, les Canadiens? C'est possible!"
French soldier learning of the Canadian captue of Vimy ridge.

Offline Aquilus

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • -225
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 371
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2006, 09:54:18 »
Ditch the battle blouse for a V-neck if we're worried about dry cleaning costs. We'll be keeping the trousers anyways, so I really don't see the point in going to DEU's. Also, there is enough elemental separation and bickering as it is. In a unit everyone generally wears the same uniform. The RMC uniform is important in fostering esprit de corps and so forth. We already wear combats and DEU's at least once a week, and during the summers don't even see our RMC uniforms so I fail to see how having a distinctive uniform somehow makes OCdt's further alienated from the CF. And yes, we have range weekends, and there are military activities and training available through outside clubs, such as orienteering, sandhurst, shooting, etc if you feel the need to go above and beyond the requirments provided. BTW net income is approx $500 a month I believe.

Offline Daidalous

  • Member
  • ****
  • 955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 174
  • Ex- Forester
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2006, 09:32:06 »
$500 a month??  Is that after tax,  mess dues,  R&Q and dry cleaning?
Member of The Frozen Chosen

Offline loyalist

  • Think of something clever when you see this
  • New Member
  • **
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 47
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2006, 13:29:01 »
After dues and mess dues (except mess dinners), tax ( I think), dry cleaning for RMC uniforms, bu not DEUs
 I don't really have much to spend money on - no car, no wife, no girlfiend, no kids and no pets, and given how busy you can get here between athletics, acedemics and all the military jazz, there's not much to waste money on. A bike, maybe?
  Keep in mind that while hosuing here is cheaper, it's not your standard PMQ that we're paying for, You're paying for half a room with space for uniforms, a bed and a desk. Overall, though, the culture and experince, along with the quality of quarters (we dont get much space or privacy, but the rooms are nice, neat and effiecient, more or less depending which set of lines you're in), it's a good quality of life, even if the rooms go from hot to cod to hot in Fort Sauve.

A new option is being examined of taking a page from the Australians, as they have good-looking DEU-like uniforms that are completely washable. I'm all for it, as they'd be cheaper than DEUs and stay with the traditions of RMC.
"C'est impossible! Ah, les Canadiens? C'est possible!"
French soldier learning of the Canadian captue of Vimy ridge.

Offline Daidalous

  • Member
  • ****
  • 955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 174
  • Ex- Forester
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2006, 17:51:03 »
Do you get to claim all of you school expenses in RMC as a tax right off?  Ie book, paper,r pens, computer.  etc..... Or do they prevent you from doing that as your tuition is paid for?
Member of The Frozen Chosen

Offline Allan Luomala

  • Banned
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • -20
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 637
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2006, 20:09:44 »
I'm not sure how often everyone here drycleans their DEU, but I have determined that it is one of the biggest scams ever (must have been cooked up by the Liberals  ;D ). I know people that dry clean their uniform everytime they wear it. Unless you are a big fan of rolling around in the mud, or eat like a Neanderthal, you don't need to dry clean it that often.

I used to be like the people I mentioned (dryclean all the time). I then realized the futility of it, as it seemed that it would look WORSE after I received it than before I brought it in. When I was in Cornwallis on recruit training, we were all about cutting corners (wasn't everyone?) and we thought we would be clever by sending our work dress (good ol' bus driver outfit) into the dry cleaner with our DEU. I'm pretty convinced that buddy drove around with our uniforms in his van, got 'em good and dusty, and then charged us for the honour. And then it's kind of lame to blame the drycleaner when you get a blast from the Master Jack for a shitty uniform.

Anyway, a little prevention (folding your pants and putting them on a hangar vs throwing them on the floor, and hanging jacket on hangar rather than dangle over chair) and a little spray bottle of water and a stiff brush to remove lunch goes a long way to keeping money in your pocket, and not in the drycleaners. I do know of a guy who threw his DEU into the washer and dryer (whilst drunk) after doing the liquid laugh all over himself. They didn't get destroyed, but I wouldn't advise it.

I would be all over a dress uniform that you could throw in the wash, but I'm tellin' ya, the dry clean DEU is a Liberal scam!!!

As for the CUA covering drycleaning (or boot polish, or haircuts, etc) Armyvern already covered it (damn her!!! because I wanted to shatter that myth). A definite Top 10 peeve of mine was guys saying that that's what CUA was for. That's what your salary is for. There are people who claim up to $500 a year (with receipts) on their taxes for "Military Grooming" under miscellaneous expenses. I tried it once, but didn't have receipts (who keeps a receipt for a tin of polish?) as a friend of mine said "You don't need them!" Tell that to the CCRA who decided to audit me. YMMV....

Al

Offline N. McKay

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 11,505
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,255
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2006, 23:27:18 »
Anyway, a little prevention (folding your pants and putting them on a hangar vs throwing them on the floor, and hanging jacket on hangar rather than dangle over chair) and a little spray bottle of water and a stiff brush to remove lunch goes a long way to keeping money in your pocket, and not in the drycleaners.

Definitely good advice.  Another good thing to do is to leave it out of the closet, on hangers, for a day or so after you wear it to allow it to air out and dry off.

Wool clothing treated this way can easily go for quite a few days' wear between cleanings.  The amount of polyester in DEUs would, I think, make it necessary to have them cleaned more often (since it doesn't breathe as well as wool, you sweat more, it doesn't air out as well, etc.), but certainly not every time they're worn.

Offline Daidalous

  • Member
  • ****
  • 955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 174
  • Ex- Forester
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2006, 10:55:58 »
You just figured out one of the biggest secrets.   I know that when I did basic, the MCpl would come through bark off about your kit being messed up.   Unless he brought the piece of kit right up to your face, you did a visual over it, and if you found nothing put it back.   Most of the time, on the next inspection they would not even mention the kit they went off about, and you never changed anything to it.   But if they pull say your shirt out again and asked why did you not clean this?   Well you F'd up and take your lumps
Member of The Frozen Chosen

Offline ArmyVern

    is awake.

  • Army.ca Myth
  • *****
  • 207,601
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15,501
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2006, 11:25:20 »
As for the CUA covering drycleaning (or boot polish, or haircuts, etc) Armyvern already covered it (damn her!!! because I wanted to shatter that myth).
You may sentence me to 8 more years in 'purgatory' for this. I however, sentence you to disbarment from the MattG Site for being too slow!!  ;D

Back to your regularly scheduled programming...
 
Hard by MCpl Elton Adams

If you or someone you love is having difficulty & would like to speak to someone who has been through a similar experience, who understands, & will respect your need for privacy and confidentiality, contact OSISS toll-free at 1-800-883-6094. You can locate the peer closest to you by logging on to www.osiss.ca, clicking on “Contact us” link & then choosing the “Peer” or “Family Support Network”. Help IS out there.

Offline mick

  • New Member
  • **
  • 2,010
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 34
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2006, 11:41:50 »
Piper, RMC does indeed have range weekends, in addition to many professional development seminars, sports weekends, and drill practices/parades.  Other military activities DURING THE WINTER include writing PDRs, leadership positions and general duties within the Cadet Wing, running all Cadet activites at the College, and EPT (Environmental Phase Training) prior to leaving for summer trg.

Back to the original point of this thread:  RMC leadership is considering the following options regarding dress:
1. status quo
2. combats/ NCDs/ flight suits as dress of the day, Scarlets retained for ceremonial dress (#4 patrols kept, possibly)
3. DEU (3b, 3c) as dress of the day, Scarlets retained for ceremonial dress (# 4 patrols kept, possibly)

None of these changes would come into effect until the fall of '06.

As for having to pay for DEU drycleaning...not a big deal; we only wear them once a month at most.

And NO, RMC students cannot claim any education / tuition costs on their taxes.

Cheers.

Offline Sailing Instructor

  • Member
  • ****
  • 90
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 153
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #50 on: January 17, 2006, 18:21:24 »
As a non-RMC student, I can never know the comfort level of the battle blouse, &c.  However, I will still make an argument from what I can know.  This is one of the few uniforms left that are symbols of a particular unit's identity.  To get rid of this for the sake of dry cleaning would be to let the costs outweigh the benefits. 

First, you should not have to dryclean the things that often.  Drycleaning is more damaging to clothes than leaving them dirty, thus the only rationale for doing this is to get rid of dirt that would mitigate the benefits of wearing the clothes (i.e. the clothes positively stink with sweat, they have unslightly stains).  From what I know of inspections, some lint-brushing and spot cleaning of spattering on trouser cuffs (from winter slush) will suffice for a pass.  (Are the cuffs on No 5's tucked in and bloused?)  If you have wrinkles, you are not hanging up your clothes.  After one good pressing (even by yourself), they should be fine.  The fact that poly-wool blends will keep their wrinkles longer is a moot point as the DEUs are a poly-wool blend (if no 5's are not pure wool, as I am led to believe by previous posts).

Secondly, sitting in class all day does not require combats/flightsuits.  Just because civvy university students have taken to such abombinations as pyjama-wearing, does not mean the CF needs to give up all appearances for comfort.  Ironically, the no5's are old combats anyway and should be comfortable.

Thirdly, the trousers are held up with suspenders.  You are, therefore, enjoying the most comfortable lower-half of a CF uniform that you will never experience after RMC, with the exception of mess dinners. 

Thus, to toss away this uniform in favour of another that will not symbolise the tradtion would be a mistake because the reasons in favour of change do not outweigh the conservative argument.

Offline GO!!!

  • Fallen Comrade
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 0
  • Posts: 1,851
  • Often have I regretted my speech, never my silence
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #51 on: January 17, 2006, 23:01:34 »
Thirdly, the trousers are held up with suspenders.  You are, therefore, enjoying the most comfortable lower-half of a CF uniform that you will never experience after RMC, with the exception of mess dinners. 

I see you have never experienced the joy associated with cbt pants, held up with suspenders, sans underwear and belt. Quite......liberating, especially in the summer months!
No leader was ever hated for being too hard, but a great many were for attempting to appear that way.

Offline loyalist

  • Think of something clever when you see this
  • New Member
  • **
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 47
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2006, 08:15:06 »
The no.5 pants are generally disliked as part of a duty dress due to their pockets, which can hold little more than a room keycard and your student ID. No.5's are generally comfortable, some people fenuinely hate the battle blouse, though and the chin strap on tje kepi is a real nusance. All in all, I think they're pretty comfortable and professional-looking. I just wish we didn't have a chin strap on our kepi!
"C'est impossible! Ah, les Canadiens? C'est possible!"
French soldier learning of the Canadian captue of Vimy ridge.

Offline RecceDG

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 30
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 491
  • Carpe terram inferam!
    • Far North Racing
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2006, 10:38:46 »
What, and get rid of the uber-sexy CMC chinstrap tanline?

I think that the distinctive CMC uniforms are a good way to emphasise that RMC is its own little world, partially removed from the operational CF.

The CWC is effectively a Col. when he/she graduates, but the day after graduation, both the former CWC and the lowliest slasher are equals - and equally inexperienced when it comes to their actual trade. The uniform helps build this distinction, and helps make the transition from the artificial Disneyland of RMC to the reality of the real CF a little easier.

Conversely, there is value to the College's internal "rank" structure of Year and Position. Adopting a "real" uniform like DEUs or combats means adopting the CMC rank insignia to the real uniform - and then you have potential confusion when somebody from the real world encouters CMC insignia.

I know from personal experience that a COMSEC in #4 is easily mistaken for a US Marine Captain - no sense in making things any worse.

DG 
D. Grant

Wenn ist das Nunstück git und Slotermeyer? Ja! ... Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.

Offline Aquilus

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • -225
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 371
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2006, 23:41:25 »
Getting rid of the chinstrap would equal hell on a windy day, which here on the peninsula, is basically a bloody storm at least once a week.

Offline mick

  • New Member
  • **
  • 2,010
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 34
Re: New RMC duty dress?
« Reply #55 on: January 19, 2006, 15:59:16 »
The whole point of getting rid of No.5 does not have anything to do with saving on drycleaning or comfort (although winter dress does suck). 

The Commandant has long wanted (he was previously Director of Cadets) to realign RMC to become more reflective of the CF in general.  In effect he DOESN'T want the College to be its own little world.

As for tradition, Scarlets (and maybe No. 4s) WILL definitely be kept, for use during formal or ceremonial occasions.

I don't believe that the loss of everyday rank insignia (as worn on 5s) will have any effect on the Wing: UTPNCMs here follow a similar chain of command (ie Squadron Senior, Flight Leaders) while wearing No 3s everyday, without any special insignia.  Furthermore, 1st Years are required to memorize the top College positions as well as those in their sqn chain of command.  Everyone KNOWS who their Section Commanders, Flight Leaders, and Sqn Seniors are, with or without insignia.

I think an easy and cheap solution would be CADPAT as daily dress (we wear it every Wednesday already) with a common black beret with CMC cap badge.  Everyone, regardless of occupation or environment has them, and a black beret would mirror the headdress worn by the Old Brigade already, and would retain a small measure of uniformity.

Just my 2 cents.