Poll

Select a CD option (read post for further information)

Current CD. Marking - 12, 22, 32, etc
43 (78.2%)
Progressive CD. Marking - 2.5 (or less), 5, 10, 20, 30, etc
4 (7.3%)
Progressive CD. Marking - 5 (or less), 10, 15, etc
2 (3.6%)
Lower Sleeve Arm Stripes. Marking - 5, 10, 15, etc
3 (5.5%)
Other. Marking - post an idea
3 (5.5%)

Total Members Voted: 54

Author Topic: Should everyone get a CD?  (Read 22906 times)

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Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: Should everyone get a CD?
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2006, 17:14:20 »
I read it exactly like it was written. Plain as the nose on our faces.
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Offline Trinity

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Re: Should everyone get a CD?
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2006, 17:36:57 »

Perhaps the Long Service award has seen its day, and recognitions should only be awarded for operational reasons.
   

That doesn't even make sense...

Its not an Operational award...

And kill the CD... I'd lose it.  Even soldiers with only a few years in are
still awaiting/abiding their time till they get theirs.  I remember counting mine
down from year 6.  That was something I had to look forward too.

Its not JUST a medal.  Its also a Designation.  i.e.  Your Name CD

You don't just put it aside like it was nothing.  Lets stop letting people but B.A. or PhD
after their names, or take away the iron ring for the engineers.  Its a long 12 years
but its earned!

What is your REAL beef here.  You are all over the place. What is the REAL question
you want to ask... cause this is going every which way and your getting hammered
by a few people (justly).. which doesn't help guide you to answer the real question.
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Offline Iterator

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Re: Should everyone get a CD?
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2006, 17:47:21 »
That doesn't even make sense...

Its not an Operational award...

I'm not sure if you read that correctly - "Perhaps the Long Service award has seen its day, and recognitions should only be awarded for operational reasons." Does not imply that the CD is an operational award. The statement says that "Perhaps" only operational awards (meaning - awards for operational service, or bravery for that matter) should be used, and that Long Service recognition does not require a medal/decoration.
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Offline Kasanika

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Re: Should everyone get a CD?
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2006, 17:51:06 »
I feel the need to clarify my earlier post about a generic "CF Service" medal.
I envisioned it being issued once you take your release, people who were not entitled to any other medal would have something to wear on their blazers on special occasions. I understand it would be redundant for people with other medals but it is not primarily geared towards them. They would still be entitled to it anyway. I understand it might have limited prestige to people in the CF since everyone would get one, it would be more of a way to show civilians just how many people have served in the CF. I suppose if you released and joined up again you would were it on DEUs, but that is a limited number of people.
As for the bureaucracy of it, it wouldn't be that onerous as anyone who was entitled to a veteran's licence plate would be entitled to this medal and bureaucracies for plates already exist in most provinces.
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Offline bLUE fOX

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Re: Should everyone get a CD?
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2006, 18:19:22 »
just out of curiosity what is the reasoning behind twelve years? Seems to be a bit of an odd number. why not ten our fifteen? real numbers if you will. not trying to stir stuff up, just new is all.
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Offline axeman

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Re: Should everyone get a CD?
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2006, 18:36:06 »
i also vote with GO!! on this ,now im in the navy "sigh" . after earning my UNPROFOR , NATO , SWASM ,C.D.,  with the CPSM and CINC tossed in there i was on my 3's going to a base side muster with an OS standing  around with the SWASM  on the tunic.. my course got a lot of looks as we were mostly army remusters.. lets see me with 5 an engineer with 3 an ex RCR with 3 an other ex Pat with 6 and the CINC and another 2 pers in our course with CD's .The CD's do stand out  .keep them the way they are ..
I'm not saying to kill all the stupid people . .. Just remove the warning labels and let nature run it's course

Offline Iterator

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Re: Should everyone get a CD?
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2006, 19:19:30 »
just out of curiosity what is the reasoning behind twelve years? Seems to be a bit of an odd number. why not ten our fifteen? real numbers if you will. not trying to stir stuff up, just new is all.

From http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/honours_awards/engraph/long_service_e.asp?cat=3.
Quote
It should be noted that permanent force (regular) officers were not eligible for any long service awards as it was felt that as they held a commission, they were expected to serve honourably and for a long period of time. 

Reserve officers (except in the RCAF) were eligible for various long service decorations, therefore granting them the use of postnominals while other ranks were eligible for various long service and good conduct medals, without postnominals.


Why at 12 years and then every 10 years? I don't know, I was also hoping someone would have an answer.

It doesn't seem intuitive from the awards the CD replaced.

A summary (also from http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/honours_awards/engraph/long_service_e.asp?cat=3, and http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/cmdp/mainmenu/group11):

   - Regular Navy Officers: No Awards.
   - Reserve Navy Officers: At 20 years.

   - Regular Navy Other Ranks: At 15 years, and then every 15 years (no postnominals).
   - Reserve Navy Other Ranks: At 12 years, and then every 12 years (no postnominals).


   - Regular Army Officers: No Awards.
   - Reserve Army Officers: At 20 year, and then every 20 years.

   - Regular Army Other Ranks: At 18 years, and then every 18 years (no postnominals).
   - Reserve Army Other Ranks: At 12 years, and then every 6 years (no postnominals).


   - Regular Air Force Officers: No Awards.
   - Reserve Air Force Officers and Other Ranks: At 10 years, and then every 10 years (no postnominals).

   - Regular Air Force Other Ranks: At 18 years, and then every 18 years (no postnominals).

Notes:
   - At first the Air Force appears to have used the Army awards
   - IIRC Navy Good Conduct chevrons were for 3, 8, and 13 years.

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Offline geo

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Re: Should everyone get a CD?
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2006, 20:42:53 »
BF...
I asked first..... and I'm up to two clasps ???
Chimo!

Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: Should everyone get a CD?
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2006, 01:33:30 »
Having said that I think the rest of our Honours and Awards system really sucks. The Canada Silver Jubilee, Golden Jubilee and 125 were just bloody jokes. I would be really embarrassed to wear a 125 medal personally after seeing the way they were handed out. I thought we all should have got the Golden Jubilee medal similar to the way it was done in Britain....if you had served 1 year to the crown on the date of the anniversary of the ascension you got one....I was in London in 2002 and saw guardsman at the Palace wearing them.
I would hate to see us go to the American systemof ribbons for doing very little  and unit citations but there are certain things that could be recognized better.

Umm...you don't see the contradiction here?  Giving a medal for one year of service? How is that different from the "American" way of giving ribbons for completing basic training?  It's still a gimme.

As for commemoratives - I was quite happy to get the Alberta Centennial Medal, not so much that I felt I deserved but but to see the excellent company I was keeping; my oldest friend who started in Cadets with me 20 years ago got one (he had completed all 6 trade qualification levels in just two years, and I believe the first one in our Regiment in his trade to ever do that), as well as some "heart and soul" types in our Regiment.  The Queen's Jubilee also went to long serving members who did more than just show up and sign the paysheet for 15 or 20 years.  I understand it is different in some units; too bad for them, but don't paint us all with the same brush. 
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Offline Iterator

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Re: Should everyone get a CD?
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2006, 05:26:20 »
...
I asked first.....
...

If you mean regarding:

then again - after 12 yrs - why did they decide to move forward in 10 yr increments thereafter?

Then yes, you did ask first. :)

I can't seem to find out anything about this though:

The brits have brought in a medal for shorter service - something along the 8 yr range.
will look it up and post reference

T'was felt that 12 yrs is a wee bit too long...

I haven't found an official site, everything I find refers to it as 18 years




The ADF realising there was no medal for those under 15 yrs (less medals for deploymenet and other reasons) came up with the ADM (Australian Defence Medal).
...but it is given out to those with a mininum of 6 yrs service
...

Extracted from (http://www.defence.gov.au/minister/Broughtpl.cfm?CurrentId=3952)
Quote
...
The Australian Defence Medal also reflects the fact that when serving in a modern Defence Force, it becomes difficult to discriminate between those who serve directly on operations and those who support those operations."

"The Australian Defence Medal reflects the fact that by serving in the Australian Defence Force individuals make a contribution to the national interest, whether they served the country on operations, or whether they remained in Australia in a support role."
...
"Six years reflects a length of time that we could be reasonably certain that most people would have completed the requisite training and experience in the Regular or Reserve forces, to be considered fully deployable should they have been called upon," Mr Brough said
...



Many of us who have gone full civie will have no use for medals. They will remain in a box in the basement.

But when you see medal wearing non-military people (police, fire department, and legion members) you can occasionally notice those with the CD.

And from that you can identify those that served 12 years in the CF, but not all those that served in the CF (keep in mind police and others will have overseas medals as well).


Though not entirely opposed to a separate medal such as:
...a generic "CF Service" medal....issued once you take your release...
I would have preferred a way of recognizing CF service by piggy-backing it onto an existing award.

And using the CD, but with the now common maple leaf clasps to keep it visibly distinct from CDs issued for 12 years, I thought would have been ideal.

However, the opposition to anything that would associate the CD with less than 12 years, or to not using a medal/decoration for recognizing 12 years, has been more than I had expected.

Is there another medal that is already issued in large numbers that could be used?

The SSM comes to mind. Would there be the same opposition? Non-biased note: I already have an SSM.



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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Should everyone get a CD?
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2006, 07:53:40 »
Many of us who have gone full civie will have no use for medals. They will remain in a box in the basement. 
If that is the case you are creating a big fuss for nothing.

But when you see medal wearing non-military people (police, fire department, and legion members) you can occasionally notice those with the CD.

And from that you can identify those that served 12 years in the CF, but not all those that served in the CF (keep in mind police and others will have overseas medals as well).
So?  What is your point?  Those with some TI have a CD, those without don't.  Those with Tours have medals for Tours.  Those who didn't make any commitment don't have anything.

Though not entirely opposed to a separate medal such as:I would have preferred a way of recognizing CF service by piggy-backing it onto an existing award.
Isn't this just being redundant?  You want to recognize CF Service. Any CF medal would do that anyway.  If I wore the SWASM, then I must have obviously been in the CF for some period of time.


And using the CD, but with the now common maple leaf clasps to keep it visibly distinct from CDs issued for 12 years, I thought would have been ideal.

However, the opposition to anything that would associate the CD with less than 12 years, or to not using a medal/decoration for recognizing 12 years, has been more than I had expected.

Is there another medal that is already issued in large numbers that could be used?

The SSM comes to mind. Would there be the same opposition? Non-biased note: I already have an SSM.
So obviously you were in the CF.  Would another medal, more emphasis that fact.  Your suggestion would only devalue the purpose of the SSM.

Let's just admit it........you would like to have another gong for your collection.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2006, 07:59:22 by George Wallace »
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Offline Trinity

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Re: Should everyone get a CD?
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2006, 08:16:44 »
So its all about the Look Cool Factor

What do people get who haven't served enough time in, tours, etc..

Dogs tags (Id discs)

Thats it.. enjoy them.   

I think the topic has been beaten to death!
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Offline Iterator

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Re: Should everyone get a CD?
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2006, 14:01:07 »

Quote from: Iterator on Today at 05:26:20
But when you see medal wearing non-military people (police, fire department, and legion members) you can occasionally notice those with the CD.

And from that you can identify those that served 12 years in the CF, but not all those that served in the CF (keep in mind police and others will have overseas medals as well).


So?  What is your point?  Those with some TI have a CD, those without don't.  Those with Tours have medals for Tours.  Those who didn't make any commitment don't have anything.

The point:

If service in the CF is worthy of recognition then lets not be timid about it. Service doesn't automatically become meaningful at 12 years, and that is the problem with the current CD - What does it mark? - It marks when you get your CD (pointing that out doesn't diminish your 12 years of service).

I find service in the CF to be worthy of recognition, but to make a new medal that would be eventually awarded to almost all members would be seen as cheapening all medals.

By using the CD in a way that would still leave the current holders of the CD distinct seems like a great idea. It is one of the lowest medals in order of precedence; it is eventually awarded to almost all members who are in for 12 years anyways; and it can be made even more useful by better marking Time In. I'm sure with some more thought on the topic you will find your opinion on the idea changing.


However, there appear to be 2 problems:

1)
"Those with Tours have medals for Tours.  Those who didn't make any commitment don't have anything.".

There were a few people, including yourself, who feel that non-operational medals would be unworthy.

To follow that line of thinking would mean that a medal for 12 years of Service cheapens operational medals.
 
There are alternate ways of marking Time In (pins, badges), but then some people posted about how they wouldn't want to reach 12 years of service in the CF and not get the medal that they had been eagerly anticipating. I had not previously heard of that concern - live and learn I guess.


2)
The greatest concern comes from those who currently hold a CD. Even though the clasp system proposed would leave the current CD holders visibly distinct, there is a lot of apprehension about their CDs being cheapened. Again, it appears attitudes towards CDs have changed since I was in.



Still, not wanting to create a new medal, I'm left with what I would consider the obvious alternate idea. The SSM.

After all, it is already awarded for service in Canada (Ranger, Alert).

Awarding it would require no modifications. Just a bar would be required (perhaps CANADA). And for those who already have the SSM (mostly NATO) it can easily be distinguished because once you have 2 bars - the ribbon is then worn with a maple leaf.

As for when it would be awarded - either only at the door on your way out, or, at the door on your way out but earlier if you participate in an Aid to Civil Power operation (ice storms and such).


Your suggestion would only devalue the purpose of the SSM.

Well... You don't seem concerned about the CD or the SSM cheapening other medals, so how about a little leeway on at least the SSM.

And look on the bright side, since I already have an SSM you would be denying me this:
Let's just admit it........you would like to have another gong for your collection.
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Offline Kasanika

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Re: Should everyone get a CD?
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2006, 14:13:53 »
Quote
I find service in the CF to be worthy of recognition, but to make a new medal that would be eventually awarded to almost all members would be seen as cheapening all medals.
I don't see how. Is the VC somehow cheapend because other medals exist? The Medal of Honor awarded by Congress?
The first "S" in SSM stand for "Special". Hence the need for a separate "SM" that's not as special.
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Bart
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Should everyone get a CD?
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2006, 14:31:01 »
I find service in the CF to be worthy of recognition, but to make a new medal that would be eventually awarded to almost all members would be seen as cheapening all medals.

I hope that that is your final word in this discussion.  If it isn't, both sides of your brain are not communicating with each other, and neither is communicating a clearly defined, concise message to your fingers.  A nice Certificate of Service to hang on your "I Love Me Wall" for any Service short of the prerequisite time for a Medal should suffice.
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Re: Should everyone get a CD?
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2006, 14:48:51 »
I don't see how. Is the VC somehow cheapend because other medals exist? The Medal of Honor awarded by Congress?
The first "S" in SSM stand for "Special". Hence the need for a separate "SM" that's not as special.
All the best,
Bart

You have a point about "Special". And using "Special" as the criteria for that medal would make it a slight stretch to include any and all military service. But if the CD is off limits, then I thin it would be worth it.

In our system I would say that excess service medals do cheapen other service medals. And, in my opinion, I think that the combination of SSM, CPSM and a new Canadian SM would be too much, in fact I would have preferred it if everyone were issued the PEACE bar to the SSM rather than the CPSM.
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Offline Iterator

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Re: Should everyone get a CD?
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2006, 14:49:37 »
...A nice Certificate of Service to hang on your "I Love Me Wall" for any Service short of the prerequisite time for a Medal should suffice.

I could agree with you, if you could communicate a clearly defined, concise message on what a "prerequisite time for a Medal" aside from what the medal itself states. And, if not, then why would you be opposed to "A nice Certificate of Service" with "12 years" written on it.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Should everyone get a CD?
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2006, 14:52:36 »
Now you are Trolling.
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Re: Should everyone get a CD?
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2006, 14:57:14 »
I could agree with you, if you could communicate a clearly defined, concise message on what a "prerequisite time for a Medal" aside from what the medal itself states. And, if not, then why would you be opposed to "A nice Certificate of Service" with "12 years" written on it.


Now you are Trolling.

Lol..  George.. instead of calling him Iterator..

maybe we should change his name to Re-iterator.  ;)
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=reiterator
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Should everyone get a CD?
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2006, 15:04:18 »
Actually, in my books he has risen on the scale to the level of:  One "D" Ten "T"  ::)
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Should everyone get a CD?
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2006, 20:02:25 »
Submission from Iterator:

Quote
From Iterator:
Quote
I could agree with you, if you could communicate a clearly defined, concise message on what a

"prerequisite time for a Medal" aside from what the medal itself states.



Agreed, that is unclear.


Let me use the ASM as an example.
Quote

...
Extracted from (http://www.defence.gov.au/minister/Broughtpl.cfm?CurrentId=3952)
"Six years reflects a length of time that we could be reasonably certain that most people would have

completed the requisite training and experience in the Regular or Reserve forces, to be considered fully

deployable should they have been called upon,"...



So, if someone were to ask - "Why is the ASM awarded at 6 years instead of at 5 or at 7?", a constructive

answer can be formed. There is a rationale.

If someone were to ask - "Why is the CD awarded at 12 years instead of at 11 or at 13?", there is no

constructive answer. You could try "11 years isn't long enough to receive a medal for being in the CF",

but that would be empty and somewhat circular.

Modifying the terms for a CD would both improve it and provide a rationale for it. It will detract little from those who already have them.
 
« Last Edit: March 13, 2006, 20:55:36 by George Wallace »
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