Author Topic: arm patch for reservist.  (Read 20731 times)

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Offline recceguy

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Re: arm patch for reservist.
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2006, 15:32:07 »
Michael,

I'm suprised that Mr Milne, who gained the Queen's approval for the awards, is not on the list of recipients. ??? Or did I miss something?
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: arm patch for reservist.
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2006, 16:02:35 »
Quote from: recceguy
I'm sure if you put a call into the Area Chief, he'd be more than happy to clarify the Commander's position to you.

The Area Chief is an advisor to the Area Commander - he (or she) cannot assert authority to add items to an order of dress.  And while Area Commanders have positions on many subjects, they also lack the authority to add items to uniforms.


And Michael:  Yes, the CDS did order a change to dress, as he is permitted to do.  Where's the issue?  (Chain of command and legal orders issue, that is.  I'd rather not touch the aesthetics issue  :P)

As for "The Clan of the Gallant Canadians", HRH may well have authorised the issue of the medal, but there has never been any authority given to wear them with Canadian uniforms.  I understand that the Calgary Highlanders restrict their wearing to regimental functions, but from a narrow perspective, there is no authority to wear such decorations with the uniform, just as there is no authority for Canadians of the first Gulf war to wear medals issued by the government of Kuwait (an issue that was in the press a few weeks ago)
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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: arm patch for reservist.
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2006, 16:17:09 »
The Area Chief is an advisor to the Area Commander - he (or she) cannot assert authority to add items to an order of dress.  And while Area Commanders have positions on many subjects, they also lack the authority to add items to uniforms.


And Michael:  Yes, the CDS did order a change to dress, as he is permitted to do.  Where's the issue?  (Chain of command and legal orders issue, that is.  I'd rather not touch the aesthetics issue  :P)

As for "The Clan of the Gallant Canadians", HRH may well have authorised the issue of the medal, but there has never been any authority given to wear them with Canadian uniforms.  I understand that the Calgary Highlanders restrict their wearing to regimental functions, but from a narrow perspective, there is no authority to wear such decorations with the uniform, just as there is no authority for Canadians of the first Gulf war to wear medals issued by the government of Kuwait (an issue that was in the press a few weeks ago)


Exactly my point - units and formations will sometimes issue insignia that is beyond their authority to do so.  But it happens. I see no harm in the practice, but even if I did - it ain't gonna change.

Incidentally, those weirdos that study Uniforms and insignia for "fun" can point to a long history of unauthorized insignia in the Canadian Army, always worn with pride, and quite illegally, from the British-made trades badges of the Second World War which were officially verboten but widely worn, proclaiming to the world that the wearer was a Despatch Rider or some equally exciting thing, back to stuff like Prize Platoon insignia which was authorized by the 3rd Division in the First World War (not sure if there was a larger authority for that one or not, I'd have to reread KHAKI).
« Last Edit: March 28, 2006, 16:42:11 by Michael Dorosh »
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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: arm patch for reservist.
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2006, 16:18:17 »
Michael,

I'm suprised that Mr Milne, who gained the Queen's approval for the awards, is not on the list of recipients. ??? Or did I miss something?

Hitler authorized the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross, but only Hermann Goering ever wore one. :)

Seriously, good point.  The list is incomplete - I'd be surprised if he didn't get one also.  Thanks for pointing it out, I'll try and find out for sure what his status was.
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Offline Unknown C/S

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Re: arm patch for reservist.
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2006, 16:39:58 »
Recceguy

I am surprised at your response. Did I somehow hit a raw nerve?

I was not telling anybody how to "suck eggs" and I have witnessed the Mattawa Plain hordes.

If you agree that afixing a patch to your uniform that will designate the soldier as a "visitor"  to the full time population of the base sits well with the troops that's fine.

Your point may be valid if: None of the soldiers were allowed on the base proper, any and all Reg Force pers were not permitted to take part or enter the exercise area.

My question was how did the troops feel? (Obviously you endorse it)

Secondly, it must have have cost a bit to have patches made up, only to be discarded after the ex? Could money not have been better spent on training (blank rds, gas training, grenade, M72 etc, etc)
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Offline recceguy

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Re: arm patch for reservist.
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2006, 17:04:24 »
The Area Chief is an advisor to the Area Commander - he (or she) cannot assert authority to add items to an order of dress.  And while Area Commanders have positions on many subjects, they also lack the authority to add items to uniforms.

Thanks for the lesson ::) You missed my point. On of the things the Area Chief is responsible for is dress. If the Commander has changed it, without authority and contrary to the Dress Regs as you imply, I'm sure the Chief had discussions about it. As such he is probably more in the know about this particular case than you are. However, feel free to contact the Commander directly instead and question his motives personaly. Let us know how you make out.

Recceguy

I am surprised at your response. Did I somehow hit a raw nerve?

I was not telling anybody how to "suck eggs" and I have witnessed the Mattawa Plain hordes.

If you agree that afixing a patch to your uniform that will designate the soldier as a "visitor"  to the full time population of the base sits well with the troops that's fine.

Your point may be valid if: None of the soldiers were allowed on the base proper, any and all Reg Force pers were not permitted to take part or enter the exercise area.

My question was how did the troops feel? (Obviously you endorse it)

Secondly, it must have have cost a bit to have patches made up, only to be discarded after the ex? Could money not have been better spent on training (blank rds, gas training, grenade, M72 etc, etc)
Andy,

You missed my smilies methinks. No offence taken with what you had to say and no frazzled nerves, at least not from this. The patches are held on with velcro, they come off easier than the cam paint and stink, if your one of the lucky ones to make it up top. Most are relegated to the Plains for the duration. Not saying they don't still find a way to get up to Timmies or CANEX. Most I've spoken to, don't seem to mind it. Honestly, I've never heard anyone ***** about it. Maybe the Unit they were delegated to, but not the concept. I'm sure every initiative has it's detractors though. Personally, I don't care one way or the other, simply providing the explanations. I prefer to be a 'grey man' when attending these sort of things.

I don't know what LFCA paid for them, and I'm not sure that cost would have provided much more training aids and value. There's always  somebody from Denison lurking here, maybe they can expand for us.
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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: arm patch for reservist.
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2006, 17:29:58 »
Some people seem to forget that money is allocated into budgets for specific purposes; is it common to spend ammunition money on badges?  I'm guessing no?

As a reservist, I'd say why be ashamed of being a reservist? Badges are to identify but also provide a source of espirit de corps.  If given a badge like that, I'd wear it with pride. Shame on me if I didn't.

If anyone is embarrassed to be a reservist, that's their tough luck.
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Offline EX_RCAC_011

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Re: arm patch for reservist.
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2006, 17:35:01 »
This isn't about being reservist or not it's just questions of

is this legal qr&o?

what the heck it is?

information, pics ,etc?

man I think I picked a good topic

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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: arm patch for reservist.
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2006, 17:41:33 »
This isn't about being reservist or not it's just questions of

is this legal qr&o?

what the heck it is?

information, pics ,etc?

man I think I picked a good topic

are you ready?are you ready?lets get it on! (UFC for those hippies who don't watch it)

Those have all been answered already, including at least one photo.  Try my forum at http://www.network54.com/Forum/28173/ and ask Bill Alexander if he has photos available of the rest.
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Offline EX_RCAC_011

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Re: arm patch for reservist.
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2006, 17:47:52 »
cheers.
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Offline GO!!!

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Re: arm patch for reservist.
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2006, 18:03:43 »
I like this idea - an identifying brassard for all reservists...

Perhaps red - no, scarlet, yes a scarlet letter - oh, wait a second... ;)
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Offline turretmonster

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Re: arm patch for reservist.
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2006, 18:12:02 »
"...scarlet, yes a scarlet letter"

So they can be punished for adultery?

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Offline Unknown C/S

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Re: arm patch for reservist.
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2006, 18:17:18 »
Some people seem to forget that money is allocated into budgets for specific purposes; is it common to spend ammunition money on badges?  I'm guessing no?

As a reservist, I'd say why be ashamed of being a reservist? Badges are to identify but also provide a source of espirit de corps.  If given a badge like that, I'd wear it with pride. Shame on me if I didn't.

If anyone is embarrassed to be a reservist, that's their tough luck.

My point was not about being ashamed or embarassed to wear an identifier. The fact that there is already a small amount of animosity between a few reg/res soldiers, the wearing of a patch for a militia exercise might have caused some friction for certain soldiers.

(If nothing else a patch would have made it harder to sneek into timmies undetected  ;D)
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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: arm patch for reservist.
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2006, 18:27:46 »
My point was not about being ashamed or embarassed to wear an identifier. The fact that there is already a small amount of animosity between a few reg/res soldiers, the wearing of a patch for a militia exercise might have caused some friction for certain soldiers.

(If nothing else a patch would have made it harder to sneek into timmies undetected  ;D)

Your last point is apt. :)

Friction between the regulars and the reserves would be the fault of the individuals concerned; I don't think it's a valid reason not to try and foster unit cohesion among disparate elements thrown together by using a known quanitity (ie unit insignia).  For all the dumb ideas the Army has had over history, I don't think this was one of them. But, I'm one of those weirdos who thinks studying uniforms and insignia is "fun" so I am probably biased. ;)
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Offline Unknown C/S

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Re: arm patch for reservist.
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2006, 18:41:56 »
Your last point is apt. :)

Friction between the regulars and the reserves would be the fault of the individuals concerned; I don't think it's a valid reason not to try and foster unit cohesion among disparate elements thrown together by using a known quanitity (ie unit insignia).  For all the dumb ideas the Army has had over history, I don't think this was one of them. But, I'm one of those weirdos who thinks studying uniforms and insignia is "fun" so I am probably biased. ;)

Generally I am against the liberal use of fluff badges & pins, it only seems to drag us (CDN Army) toward an Americanization of our troops.
In this case, a reorg precipitated the need for this. Take the ARR for example, bringing regt's together to work as a single entity (with different cap badges) could cause some problems (SOP's etc) at least the identifying badge is a step in the right direction to bring them closer to "reading off the same page"

As far as friction is concerned, it is generally borne from ignorance from the ocaisional soldier on both sides.
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Offline Beadwindow 7

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Re: arm patch for reservist.
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2006, 18:51:20 »
As one of the soldiers who was wearing flags, I had no problems wearing one. This wasn't to identify us as reservists, it was a unit identifier, and saved us some trouble.

Many were the times when I had my Blue and Grey flash on, and someone would yell "Hey Signaller, get over here" so that I could take a look at their radio.

also, when you had multiple groups from different formations at the showers, and you were waiting for the bus or ML, in the dark, it was nice to know that as long as you were with a bunch of people wearing the same flash as you, you wouldn't be the only one lost.

BTW, a velcro tab won't keep this guy from Tim's ;D
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Offline bobthebui|der

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Re: arm patch for reservist.
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2006, 19:02:37 »
BTW, a velcro tab won't keep this guy from Tim's ;D

Its velcro for a reason..  ;D
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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: arm patch for reservist.
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2006, 19:42:35 »
Many were the times when I had my Blue and Grey flash on, and someone would yell "Hey Signaller, get over here" so that I could take a look at their radio.

In other words, it worked.  Camouflage concerns aside, that was the reason "we" started wearing battalion badges in 1916.  Back then a signaller wore a blue and white armlet, for the same reason you just describe.  The more things change...
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Offline Beadwindow 7

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Re: arm patch for reservist.
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2006, 20:15:05 »
In other words, it worked.  Camouflage concerns aside, that was the reason "we" started wearing battalion badges in 1916.  Back then a signaller wore a blue and white armlet, for the same reason you just describe.  The more things change...

Exactly. Mind you, on patrols (Yes, I went out on a couple, Sh0rtbUs, I don't spend ALL my time in the pod), the flashes came off for us, but other then that, I didn't mind having the identifier.
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Offline stripes

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Re: arm patch for reservist.
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2006, 22:10:45 »
More pictures:
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lfca/ExstalwartGuardian/flash/index.htm
Click on "Cool Pics" (top right).

No camouflage concerns here: while I still had one, it was 31 LIB's black on green (okay, so the green was a bit bright...).
Also, I could just take off the patch and no one would know I'm a reservist (rank slip on says "RCR"). Good for when I was up top. ;D

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Re: arm patch for reservist.
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2006, 23:25:58 »
Late post on this thread, but I can tell you we don't use these on ARCON (Area Concentration) here in LFAA.  We usually form an ATBG (Area Trng Bde Group) formed with troops from our 2 CBGs.  BUT...I bet if they haven't heard about it..and then they did (the brass down here) they would like the idea.  Inter-unit rivalries here are rampant like every other Area I suspect...I remember the old ARCON smokers...well that's not a topic for here now is it...

But..we can tell each other apart down this way by accents...    ;)  Ask someone to talk an' ya can tell what part of the Maritimes they're from right??  (insert Prince County PEI slang here)

Seems to have it's pro's and con's...I like the idea of "easy identification" but not "easy identification as a Reserve"...but that's just me...I am from PEI...my opinion doesn't count 'cause of my grade 6 edu-cation...

 ;D
« Last Edit: April 13, 2006, 01:10:47 by Mud Recce Man »