Author Topic: CH-146 Griffon  (Read 147991 times)

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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #250 on: February 12, 2020, 22:21:20 »
No, Twin Hueys and Kiowas only.  No Boaty McBoat Griffs.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #251 on: February 12, 2020, 22:39:04 »
Have they ever put a Griffon on floats?

 A great use for the old 'black betty' air mattresses :)
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline CTD

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #252 on: February 13, 2020, 03:19:02 »
Most of the Beavers flying today are new planes built around old data plates.
I rebuilt a few of them. Awesome plane and fun to work on. Even more fun when the pilot and owner took possession of their new old plane.

Offline Drallib

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #253 on: February 13, 2020, 06:48:15 »
No, Twin Hueys and Kiowas only.  No Boaty McBoat Griffs.

Challenge accepted! We got some pool noodles hanging around here somewhere...
"Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends." John 15:13

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #254 on: February 13, 2020, 09:16:50 »
"What a f$$kin' week!" - me, every Monday at about 1130hrs.

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #255 on: February 13, 2020, 09:31:46 »
Challenge accepted! We got some pool noodles hanging around here somewhere...
Those would probably put it over max takeoff weight...

Offline QuietSpike2020

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #256 on: June 10, 2020, 00:10:16 »
Has anyone ever proposed shrinking the domestic SAR role and using some of the CH-149s as utility/transports for Army operations? We could then dedicate our CH-146 Griffons to the escort/close support role and re-designate those squadrons as such.

The Canadian Coast Guard has better equipped and more capable Bell 412s than the RCAF and could probably drop some scientific/research roles to make room for an increase in domestic SAR.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #257 on: June 10, 2020, 08:48:38 »
No.  SAR is an International obligation, it isn’t appropriate for Canada to reduce its rotary-wing SAR capacity.

Your logic seems to be that the Griffon isn’t as capable in what it’s doing now, so it’s needs augmentation on the battlefield, yet the CCG’s 412s (and evening smaller 429s, I assume) take over from the Cormorants.

This isn’t a valid plan.  Across the Tac Hel Sqns there are somewhere around 50+ Griffons dedicated to the utility / tactical transport role (which includes escort, ISR and close combat attack as was performed in Afghanistan and Iraq).

Are you familiar with the experiences of the RAF using the Merlin in Iraq and Afghanistan?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 23:15:50 by Good2Golf »

Offline lenaitch

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #258 on: June 10, 2020, 10:44:51 »
On the Great Lakes (international waters), it doesn't seem we are living up to our obligations.  Unless an incident is within about an hour of Trenton, if you need air assets, particularly rotary, the reality is that it is coming from the US.  We keep saying it's a partnership, but that's like saying we're co-hosting a party and I'll bring the napkins and you do everything else.

I sometimes get confused by some positions.  Unload responsibilities to the CG but make the CG more like or part of the CAF?

Last week, off Manitoulin Island, well inside Canadian waters:

https://www.thesudburystar.com/news/local-news/kayakers-rescued-off-the-shore-of-manitoulin 

Offline Colin P

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #259 on: June 19, 2020, 04:08:48 »
The Federal Government if it so chooses could create a new agency that could combine existing marine, air and land resources, similar to how it created Transport Canada in the early 60's. It could hive off the SAR Squadrons, both rotary and fixed wing, plus the RCC's from the military. Take in RCMSAR, the dedicated SAR stations from the CCG. Land based it might have to create a parallel to to the Ranger Patrols. There would be pluses and minus to doing this. Also the Feds could operate a fleet of water bombers that can be dispatched across the country, along with temporary employment program providing basic training for emergency and SAR response to major incidents. One big issue is that it would reduce "Defense spending", even if it does not create any new resources, that may not look good to our allies, even if all we are doing is reducing "non-pointy stick bits". They might get away with it, if it is a "Special Operating Agency" under the purview and budget authority of the MND, in which case any additional funds and resources get tagged towards the 2% GDP.

Offline lenaitch

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #260 on: June 19, 2020, 14:07:15 »
Just an outsider looking in, and from a perspective of Ontario.  Federal SAR responsibilities are for water and air incidents.  Even at that, I believe the federal responsibility for water incidents is primarily coastal and international waters, which includes the Great Lakes, not for inland lakes.  Land-based and inland water searches are the mandate of the province; in Ontario that falls to either the OPP or police service of jurisdiction.  The JRCC will respond to requests for provincial assistance.  Most often the police are assisted by Natural Resources personnel and/or civilian volunteer SAR organizations and sometimes local fire services.  Any of the community-based volunteer SAR organizations that I have been involved with are dedicated and decently equipped, and are supported by donations and grant funding.  One problem is, when involving volunteer organizations such a SAR and fire, if a search becomes protracted, many are at the mercy of their employers.  I have never been involved, or heard of federal personnel utilized in ground searches.  Ranger units did not exist in remote northern Ontario FN communities when I was up there and perhaps they have an involvement now.

If the mandate of dual-roled (transport and rescue) squadrons was split, I'm not convinced the two halves would equal the whole without additional assets.

I'm not convinced of the benefit of federal involvement in a water bomber fleet.  Maintenance of natural resources is a provincial responsibility, and they have fairly effective mutual aid agreements for both assets and personnel.  I'm not sure what the feds would bring to the table.  I don't recall seeing dedicated water bombers (i.e. CL-2/415s) used in searches although imagine it could happen.

It is true that the federal government could do things it so chooses (either within the Constitution or with provincial agreement).  If they wanted to do something that would further distance the military from the average Canadian and remove the meager funding and support that the voters allow the government to currently get away with, this might be one.

Offline Colin P

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #261 on: June 19, 2020, 17:09:48 »
I agree with you a fair bit, but having been there during the CCG from TC to DFO, to being a SOA under DFO and met people who were transferred from RCAF to CCG lock, stock and barrel, it has been done before and will be done again. Even my own group went from PW>TC/CCG>DFO/CCG>DFO Habitat Branch (for 11 days)>TC/Marine>TC/Programs.

Have also been there when CCG tried to shut down both Sea Island Hovercraft base and Kits SAR base because "CCG is not responsible for inland SAR or a crash just off the airport". CCG has a big ship bias, however it's just as likely that eventually all Navaids work will be contracted out, as could icebreaking for the most part.

Offline QuietSpike2020

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #262 on: June 24, 2020, 21:56:43 »
If the Canadian Coast Guard Bell 412EPs were equipped with a SAR hoist, would they not be a superior SAR platform than the CH-146 Griffons?

Offline QuietSpike2020

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #263 on: June 24, 2020, 22:16:30 »
I was able to check out a CCG Bell 412EP in near-North Ontario this summer and I noticed the instrumentation, the weather radar and many other things that were very different than how I remember the CH-146 cockpit looking.

If the CCG models had a SAR hoist, would they be the superior bird for SAR?

Offline Colin P

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #264 on: June 25, 2020, 01:49:14 »
Than the Griffon?

Bell 412EP
Shaft HP 1,800 to 1,875
Max T/O Weight: 11900 Lb
Operating Weight: 7872 Lb
Fuel Capacity: 331 gal Lb
Payload Useful: 5100 Lb
Payload W/Full Fuel: 1814 Lb
Max Payload: 4028 Lb
Max Range: 357 nm
Service Ceiling: 20000 ft
Rate of Climb: 1780 fpm
Climb Rate One Engine Inop: 400 fpm
Max Speed: 126 kts
Normal Cruise: 122 kts
Economy Cruise: 126 kts

Griffon
Shaft HP 1,250 shp
Maximum speed: 139 kn (160 mph, 257 km/h)
Cruise speed: 118 kn (136 mph, 219 km/h)
Range: 354 nmi (407 mi, 656 km)

The Bell 412EP has roughly 600-700 more shaft horsepower, although the ranges look similar on paper, my guess is it can go father and faster than the average Griffon. More SHP normally makes flying easier and gives the pilot more options. The Bell 412EP is new and the Griffon is 25 years old, so the avionics, reliability, crew comfort will all be better. So I would feel comfortable in guessing that yes it would likley be a better platform for hoisting from. The only CCG to be fitted with a hoist that I am aware of was the Sikorsky based out of Seal Cove, Prince Rupert. She was involved in a number of notable rescues, although that was a very secondary role.   

Offline MilEME09

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #265 on: June 29, 2020, 16:47:47 »
http://natoassociation.ca/canadian-attack-helicopters-a-much-needed-capability/

Related due to the note that the senate defense report has noted the Griffon is insufficient to provide escort.
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #266 on: June 29, 2020, 19:14:09 »
It's insufficient for a lot of things we ask it to do, but some pretty skilled pilots make it happen.

If we ever bought attack helos my VOT would be filled the next day. Likely I'm staying a Signaller until I retire...

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #267 on: June 29, 2020, 20:48:42 »
Canada will get SSNs before it ever gets AHs.  I’m willing to bet that, Senate Committee Report notwithstanding, we don’t get 24 AHs, we don’t get 21 more Chinooks and the Griffon replacement program is not at all accelerated. In Afghanistan, the Griffons, properly employed, both as Chinook escorts and as close combat attack (CCA) assets, were a decent capability.  The Brits pulled their Lynx helicopters (Guinness Book record holder for fastest production helicopter) out of AFG in the summer because it didn’t have enough power, amongst other things, to keep up with the Chinooks.  Loaded out, Apaches were actually slower than the Griffon, and were used more for picket duties and CAS to conventional forces, than for escorting other helicopters like the Chinook.

For the time being, money is better spent in the Griffon to upgrade its avionics, transmission and engines and add a fourth axis to the auto-pilot.  There rest of it really isn’t broken for the doctrinal and practical tasks it’s tasked to accomplish.

:2c:

Regards
G2G
+100

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #268 on: June 29, 2020, 22:42:51 »
G2G, is all that stuff on tap for Griffon LE project? Having a beer with a Griffon Tech a while ago, he remarked they were working on Bell 412 V1/2 avionics when Bell has moved onto V5 and beyond...

Offline dapaterson

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #269 on: June 29, 2020, 22:45:09 »
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/procurement/ch-146-griffon.html

The Griffon Limited Life Extension (GLLE) project will extend the life of the Royal Canadian Air Force’s fleet of 85 CH-146 Griffon helicopters to at least 2031. To do so, we will:

replace a number of the aircraft’s avionics systems, including communications radios and cryptographic equipment, cockpit voice and flight recorders, navigation systems, automatic flight control systems, and control display units,
upgrade the cockpit displays,
upgrade engines, and
integrate sensor systems.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #270 on: June 29, 2020, 23:20:18 »
How to "upgrade" a 1990's helicopter, remove data plates, attach to assembly of new bits in the shape of a helicopter, sell old bits as "parts".
+60

Offline dapaterson

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #271 on: June 29, 2020, 23:32:16 »
Did you also work on the LAV 6.0 upgrade?
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Offline Colin P

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #272 on: June 30, 2020, 02:32:55 »
Seems India found a way to create a "Light attack Helicopter" 20mm and AT missiles. Based off of a German design. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Dhruv

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #273 on: June 30, 2020, 07:46:50 »
G2G, is all that stuff on tap for Griffon LE project? Having a beer with a Griffon Tech a while ago, he remarked they were working on Bell 412 V1/2 avionics when Bell has moved onto V5 and beyond...

PC, yes, the Griffon had a basic integrated avionics system including autopilot and flight director, but hybridized with standard mechanical instrument panel that essentially looked like the Twin Huey’s. Not sure the specific design of the configuration the Dapaterson noted with GLLE project details, but would most likely be more of a fully-integrated EFIS/‘glass cockpit’, with just a few mechanical standby instruments (similar to the Chinook).

Seems India found a way to create a "Light attack Helicopter" 20mm and AT missiles. Based off of a German design. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Dhruv

ColinP, the Dhruv is essentially a license-built (then) MBB BK-117, which initially started design as the same aircraft considered for the CFLH (Cdn Forces Light Helicopter) a late-80s/Early-90s project to replace the CH-136 Kiowa. Doctrinally, the Dhruv is an ‘armed helicopter’, not an attack helicopter.  It took
Over a decade to develop. It has minimal armour and self-protection capability.  It’s hybrid armed utility role is unlike a dedicated AH such as Apache, Cobra, Tigre, Mangusta, Rooivalk, Hind, Hokum, Havok, etc.  As well, you have to wonder about an aircraft when the Ecuadorians cancel an order for them because it is....’accident-prone’.

Regards
G2G
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 08:00:41 by Good2Golf »

Offline Drallib

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #274 on: June 30, 2020, 07:52:19 »
Judging by past aircraft, the Griffon will be in service until 2045.
"Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends." John 15:13