Author Topic: AGAIN With the "Poor Bears" and Bearskins in UK  (Read 23369 times)

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Offline RangerRay

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Re: Naked demo against bearskin hats
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2006, 00:24:30 »
Even though black bear populations are very high, and the respective provincial governments manage hunts for their populations, I would hardly call it a "cull".  Culls are often conducted by wildlife officials and they kill as many animals as they allot for a given population.  In regulated hunts, wildlife officials may set a number of animals to be allowed to be hunted either through the issuing of limited entry tags or by monitoring open seasons.  But many times, there are not enough hunters for the allowable harvest.  For example, a Management Unit may have an allowable hunt of 20 bears, but it does not mean 20 bears will be shot.  More often than not, only 10 bears will be harvested in that Management Unit.

Listening to Europeans talk about forestry or wildlife issues in Canada makes blood shoot out from my eyes!  It's like listening to NDPers talk about defence matters!  :rage:
"I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." - Sir Winston Churchill

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Naked demo against bearskin hats
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2006, 07:48:39 »
Quote
The spokesman added: "It is like shooting fish in a barrel."

And how does he know what it's like to shoot fish in a barrel.
Personal experience?
What a monster!
There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline Old Guy

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Re: Naked demo against bearskin hats
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2006, 10:37:46 »
I wanna know about these naked demonstrations.  We never seem to have those in Fort Collins.

Must be the altitude or something.

Bears, we got. 

Jim
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AGAIN With the "Poor Bears" and Bearskins in UK
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2007, 19:49:47 »
Can you say "renewable resource", PETA? 

Guess it's too cool for the naked demo, unlike the LAST time (Army.ca thread) this popped up in the UK media.

 Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.

Bears are still dying to make new hats for the Guards
Marie Woolf, Political Editor, Independent Online (UK), 14 Jan 07
Article Link

The Ministry of Defence has spent more than £320,000 ($CDN 733,000; $US626,000) over the past five years on ceremonial hats for guardsmen, each made from a single bearskin.

The policy has caused an outcry among animal welfare campaigners who say using synthetic fur would be more humane and far cheaper.

The Ministry of Defence has promised to phase out ceremonial bearskin caps following complaints that killing wild bears is cruel and unnecessary.

Fur used in busby hats worn by the Royal Horse Artillery has already been replaced with synthetic fur, following protests. But animal welfare campaigners accused the Government of dragging its feet over the guardsmen's hats.

They said that synthetic alternatives presented to the Ministry of Defence had been rejected on aesthetic grounds, including that they were not lustrous enough.

Animal welfare groups have said the use of ceremonial bearskin caps, worn by Buckingham Palace Guards and during the Trooping of the Colour, fuels the hunting of wild bears in Canada and the United States. The reported cost over five years represents at least 250 dead bears.

Campaigners say the hunters have been known to kill mothers with cubs, leaving the orphans to die, and to seriously wound bears leaving them unable to hunt and condemning them to starve to death.

"Tradition is no excuse for outright cruelty," said a spokesman for Peta, the animal welfare campaign group. "Intelligent, curious black bears are often shot several times before they die. Some of these bears escape wounded and face a slow death in the woods from blood loss, gangrene, infection, dehydration or starvation."

Prince Charles and the Queen have been "tailed" by a protester in a bear suit for two years in protest at the use of wild bear pelts.

Sources close to the Ministry of Defence said that they are trying to reduce the number of pelts used and are increasingly refurbishing existing hats. But they said the military would continue buying the bearskin hats until a suitable alternative is found.


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Offline George Wallace

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Re: AGAIN With the "Poor Bears" and Bearskins in UK
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2007, 19:52:15 »
Quote
Prince Charles and the Queen have been "tailed" by a protester in a bear suit for two years in protest at the use of wild bear pelts.

It is a wonder that this twit hasn't been shot and turned into a Guardsmans Cap too...... ;D
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Offline Bread Guy

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Re: AGAIN With the "Poor Bears" and Bearskins in UK
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2007, 20:05:53 »
It is a wonder that this twit hasn't been shot and turned into a Guardsmans Cap too...... ;D

Perhaps the protester's pelt, too, "had been rejected on aesthetic grounds, including that they were not lustrous enough."  ;)
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Offline Nerf herder

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Re: AGAIN With the "Poor Bears" and Bearskins in UK
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2007, 11:05:44 »
Every year it's the same BS from this group.

In-humane hunting? Wonder how many of them have ever been on one.

I'll hazzard a guess.....none.

We now return you to your regular thread now in progress.

Regards
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Offline niner domestic

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Re: AGAIN With the "Poor Bears" and Bearskins in UK
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2007, 11:53:57 »
Oh dear if only these groups really understood the fur trade and furrier business. They would probably go find something else to protest.  For example, when ever one sees an advertisement by a store that is selling off fur coats, hats etc at ridiculously low prices (ie, mink coats for under a thousand bucks).  Those particular coats are recycled and refurbished used coats that have either come from being trade ins or coats that have been recovered from being abandoned in cold storage.  What the consumer is paying for is the labour to refurbish them not the costs of the pelts.  A good furrier can take a 30 year old fur coat, hat and if the skin's dressing is still decent, can refurbish them to look like a brand new coat, they will use salvaged pelts from other coats to complete the remake.  Was an animal trapped? Sure, 30 years ago.  Same goes for the military headdresses, there are very few of them that are made from fresh trapped pelts/skins.   

What has always made fur a valuable commodity is that if taken care of properly (ie, not allowed to be store in plastic or allowed to get buggy) is the ability of it to be recycled for upwards of 60 years, it never loses it's market value.  I defy any of the anti-trapping/bleeding hearts to examine my fur coats and tell me if it contains new pelts or pelts that are 20-30 years old with any accuracy.  (I actually did have one tree hugger/animal saviour look at my coat and couldn't even tell me a) the species of fur, b) the age of the pelts or; c) how many times my coats has been refurbished to update it's look.)   Most trappers and pelt dressers used a distinguishing mark on the pelt - if you know your symbols you can sometimes tell whose pelt is it  and by extension guesstimate the age.  Sometimes the mark gets cut off in the blocking of the coat. 

Why isn't this common information used in a counter argument to the PETA folks? The fur trade has been saying this for years, but it's not sexy media information as it makes too much sense and not at all the controversy the media and PETA would like all to believe. 

My family has had active trap lines for centuries, I know how much is pulled off the lines each year ( I have detailed records of all our lots and strings that go to auction).  I have however, seen my  great grandfather's mark on pelts that showed up in a coat last year that was being sold for 9000.  My great grandfather died in 1944 - so 60+ year old pelts are still being used.  (and yes, my own coat has some of his pelts in it as well - they used to be in my grandmother's coat). 

As far as the busby is concerned, recycled, other bruin species pelts that have been dressed and dyed to match have all been used over the years.  So unless orgs like PETA can show me from start to finish that these headdresses are all made from freshly trapped black bear skins, without one single recycled and reclaimed pelt being used, I'm going to have to question their quest for sensationalism and shock value type of media releases. 



 
The basis of all morality is duty, a concept with the
same relation to a group that self-interest has to individual. R.A.Heinlein

Offline Nerf herder

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Re: AGAIN With the "Poor Bears" and Bearskins in UK
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2007, 12:19:52 »
Hmmm....learn something new everyday.

I had no idea the fur trade recycled pelts...thanks for the info niner domestic.

Regards
Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who kept their swords.--Ben Franklin

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Offline Bread Guy

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Re: AGAIN With the "Poor Bears" and Bearskins in UK
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2007, 12:24:19 »
I live in a part of the world where we see bears (once in a while, on the university campus in town), and I didn't know about pelt recycling, either - thx, 9-D.

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Offline George Wallace

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Re: AGAIN With the "Poor Bears" and Bearskins in UK
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2007, 12:28:50 »
Hmmm....learn something new everyday.

I had no idea the fur trade recycled pelts...thanks for the info niner domestic.

Regards

Actually, my mother had some of her old coats made into Teddy Bears for us, her Grandchildren and others as gifts.......Teddy Bears with real fur.
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Re: AGAIN With the "Poor Bears" and Bearskins in UK
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2015, 06:49:17 »
Bumped with the latest shocking (alleged) "revelation" via an animal rights group!
Quote
A freedom of information request has revealed that last year the UK Ministry of Defense (MoD) purchased 127 hats made from the skins of Canadian black bears.

With so many synthetic alternatives available, why do they still insist on using the skin of a dead animal for their ceremonious hats?

Fully aware of the ethical issues surrounding the use of bear fur for their uniforms, the MoD deliberately withholds information about how many bearskins they use each year, and where they purchase them from. It was only when the information was obtained through the freedom of information act that the public have been made aware of the situation.

Why Aren’t they Using Synthetic Alternatives?

The bearskins are used in the ceremonial caps of the Grenadier Guards, Coldstream Guards, Welsh Guards, Irish Guards and Scots Guards, despite the fact that almost every other use of animal fur in the military has now been replaced with synthetic alternatives.

The MoD claim that they have tested many synthetic materials, but that none measure up to the qualities of the bear skin, saying “over the last 20 years there have been a number of trials of synthetic alternatives to bear pelts which have, to date, proved unsuccessful as nothing has matched the properties of the natural product.”

This is a sentiment that underpins the problem with all animal exploitation: the uniform requirements of the Guards is more important than the life of an animal. We should not be in a situation where the ‘properties’ of somebody else’s skin are being given as a justification to murder ....
More from MSM here.

It's a sustainable resource, and we wouldn't want to be using alternatives made with demon oil or byproducts, would we, PETA & Co.?  :facepalm:
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: AGAIN With the "Poor Bears" and Bearskins in UK
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2015, 08:25:59 »
Maybe we can dump a few of these activists up here in the woods in Abitibi. Then they'll find out you can't throw a stick in any direction without hitting one of the damn things (who then starts gunning for you :) ).

Perhaps they would also feel better if they knew that most of the trapping/hunting for furs up there is done by natives to earn a living.
 

Offline George Wallace

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Re: AGAIN With the "Poor Bears" and Bearskins in UK
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2015, 09:34:29 »


It's a sustainable resource, and we wouldn't want to be using alternatives made with demon oil or byproducts, would we, PETA & Co.?  :facepalm:


WAIT!  Are you saying that PETA & Co. are all supporters of the demon OIL INDUSTRY?  Words escape me.   [>:(
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Offline Bread Guy

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Re: AGAIN With the "Poor Bears" and Bearskins in UK
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2015, 09:42:42 »

WAIT!  Are you saying that PETA & Co. are all supporters of the demon OIL INDUSTRY?  Words escape me.   [>:(
They just don't know it yet ....
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Offline Colin P

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Re: AGAIN With the "Poor Bears" and Bearskins in UK
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2015, 10:22:11 »
Just get a First Nations to provide the bearskins, in which case you are giving meaningful support to the Aboriginals and opposing it is racist!

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Re: AGAIN With the "Poor Bears" and Bearskins in UK
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2015, 10:57:39 »
Just get a First Nations to provide the bearskins, in which case you are giving meaningful support to the Aboriginals and opposing it is racist!
Not exactly alike, but pretty close, here are the words of one of Canada's Indigenous people to the animal rights folks ....
Quote
Seals are not endangered. They are our cows.
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Re: AGAIN With the "Poor Bears" and Bearskins in UK
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2020, 19:24:20 »
Bumped with the latest "here we go again" story ....
Quote
The Queen’s Guard may have to make a significant change to their uniforms in post-Brexit Britain by no longer wearing their traditional real bearskin hats.

In 2000, fur farming became illegal in England and Wales under the Fur Farming Prohibition Act, with the last mink fur farms ordered to close by 2003. Two years later, fur farming was also outlawed in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

However, it is currently still legal to sell fur in the UK, a fact that may change in the next year or so following the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union.

According to The Telegraph, George Eustice, the environment secretary wrote a letter on 9 September 2020 addressed to Giles Roca, chief executive of the British Fur Trade Association (BFTA), explaining that “once the UK’s future trading relationship with the EU has been established, there will be an opportunity to consider further steps it could take in relation to fur sales”

(...)

If all forms of fur sales are banned in the UK, then this will mean the Queen’s Guard may no longer be able to wear their bearskin hats, which members of the army have worn since the early 19th century.

The bearskin hats worn by the Queen’s Guard are made from Canadian black bear fur and measure approximately 18 inches in height.

The Army buys between 50 and 100 bearskin hats a year. In 2008, it was reported that PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) said the Ministry of Defence had spent more than £321,000 on bearskins in the previous five years.

The hats are worn at events like Trooping the Colour, the Queen’s birthday, and the Changing of the Guard at Buckingham Palace.

If the Guard are unable to replace their hats with new fur items, they may be forced to reconsider a fur-free alternative. The Palace has not commented on the proposed consultation ...
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Offline ArmyRick

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Re: AGAIN With the "Poor Bears" and Bearskins in UK
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2020, 07:02:55 »
I have ZERO patience for PETA.

They think everyone should stop eating meat because it is cruel. However combines from cash crops kill thousands of mice, birds, moles, rabbits, foxes and sometimes large animals like deer and bears (yes it happens). So much for cruel free.

They don't think people should use cattle hides because its cruel. Meanwhile, cattle are still killed for meat and in some cases hides are buried or end up in landfills. So much for the environment.

They don't want people to wear wool because they say it is cruel. WTF? Shearing sheep is a haircut, nothing more. Leaving the wool on for hot summer months is what is actually cruel.

M'eh

Offline Dimsum

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Re: AGAIN With the "Poor Bears" and Bearskins in UK
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2020, 09:30:55 »
They don't want people to wear wool because they say it is cruel. WTF? Shearing sheep is a haircut, nothing more. Leaving the wool on for hot summer months is what is actually cruel.

Wait what?  I've heard about the other arguments but not this one.  This makes no sense.
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Re: AGAIN With the "Poor Bears" and Bearskins in UK
« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2020, 10:08:08 »
Wait what?  I've heard about the other arguments but not this one.  This makes no sense.

Wait one...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/38802938/animal-rights-group-peta-calls-for-warhammer-fur-ban

Like, really?
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