Author Topic: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF  (Read 429714 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Remius

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 91,785
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,947
Re: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the
« Reply #875 on: November 29, 2016, 15:37:51 »
Can you tell me what unwanted sexual touching is?

Unwanted sexual touching: Has anyone touched you against your will in any sexual way? This includes unwanted touching or grabbing, kissing or fondling?

That was the exact question asked in the survey.

Optio

Offline milnews.ca

  • Info Curator, Baker & Food Slut
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Relic
  • *
  • 406,855
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 21,528
    • MILNEWS.ca-Military News for Canadians
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

Tony Prudori
MILNEWS.ca - Twitter

Offline CDNAIRFORCE

  • Member
  • ****
  • 8,040
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 129
Re: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF
« Reply #877 on: November 29, 2016, 18:12:05 »
Speaking as a man, I recently had a female (married not that it matters) supervisor who I worked with for years, mostly as the same rank.  The nicest person I've ever met in my life. Sometimes when I'd be sitting at my desk with her standing next to me discussing stuff she would put her hand on my shoulder and give it a quick squeeze, mostly when I came across slightly stressed out but sometimes not. I appreciated it as things like that can make your day when you're facing struggles whether at work or home. Did I ever once think it was inappropriate and would I ever make a complaint? Absolutely not.

As a man who believes fully in the principle behind Op Honour, and who now thinks three times before speaking, I would not even dare consider making a similar friendly shoulder touch to a woman, no matter how well I know them. It makes you wonder how many people will be facing administrative or disciplinary action due to similarly well-meaning gestures or even private conversations overheard by people that deemed them "offensive". I know it scares me to think that I could hang for saying something months ago that I cannot remember, because nobody said at that time, "hey that's not acceptable to say." People are human and two people's values and philosophies on what is and is not inappropriate conversation may not be similar. Socializing with co-workers outside of work/going to the mess was already on the decline as it was, it will just decline further as people don't want to put themselves in a position where an offhand comment turns into an RW or worse. Personally I won't be attending the unit xmas party nor staying at mess dinners past the final port toast anymore. Not because I don't trust myself, but because I don't trust others.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 19:44:59 by CDNAIRFORCE »

Offline Tcm621

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 7,650
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 662
Re: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF
« Reply #878 on: November 29, 2016, 18:21:57 »
Unwanted sexual touching: Has anyone touched you against your will in any sexual way? This includes unwanted touching or grabbing, kissing or fondling?

That was the exact question asked in the survey.
That's just circular. Unwanted touching is touching that is unwanted. What is touching in a sexual way? Unwanted touching.

There is no clear line drawn and for all we know the self reported un wanted touching is a pat on the shoulder. Conversely,  it could be straight up boob grabs. The term is not defined and as such meaningless.

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


Offline Humphrey Bogart

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 106,819
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,969
Re: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF
« Reply #879 on: November 29, 2016, 18:27:04 »
That's just circular. Unwanted touching is touching that is unwanted. What is touching in a sexual way? Unwanted touching.

There is no clear line drawn and for all we know the self reported un wanted touching is a pat on the shoulder. Conversely,  it

could be straight up boob grabs. The term is not defined and as such meaningless.

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

Just use the rules of the "man hug" as a loose guideline  ;D


Offline PuckChaser

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 912,045
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,985
    • Peacekeeper's Homepage
Re: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF
« Reply #880 on: November 29, 2016, 20:01:42 »
While many of us are suspicious of such lawsuits, not necessarily without justification, one should not leap to conclusions.

Victims may have incurred some very real costs as a result of their abuse, and those costs may not be limited to financial ones.

I have been an Assisting Officer in a disgusting non-sexual harassment case in the past. I do not doubt that similar, or worse, stuff still happens. Those who suffer deserve care and support.

Absolutely not painting them all with the "money grab" brush, but I know if I had to endure something horrible like the stories of the 3 key plantiffs, money would be the furthest thing from my mind. Money in a lawsuit isn't going to fix the problems that allowed them to be taken advantage of. Their stories and advocacy to help shine light on a dark situation is where I see the most good coming out from it.

Offline the 48th regulator

    A mans gotta eat.

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 47,325
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,922
  • Emancipate yourself from mental slavery.
    • Green Veterans Canada
Re: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF
« Reply #881 on: November 29, 2016, 20:11:23 »
Absolutely not painting them all with the "money grab" brush, but I know if I had to endure something horrible like the stories of the 3 key plantiffs, money would be the furthest thing from my mind. Money in a lawsuit isn't going to fix the problems that allowed them to be taken advantage of. Their stories and advocacy to help shine light on a dark situation is where I see the most good coming out from it.

Spoken like a person who never has experienced harm in that manor.

Stay in your lanes please.  You disgrce my sisters and brothers that sufferd such abuse.

dileas

tess
I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.

Offline Remius

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 91,785
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,947
Re: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF
« Reply #882 on: November 29, 2016, 20:37:05 »


There is no clear line drawn and for all we know the self reported un wanted touching is a pat on the shoulder. Conversely,  it could be straight up boob grabs. The term is not defined and as such meaningless.

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

Why don't we give the people reporting this a bit more credit.  Most men and women know the difference between a pat on the shoulder and unwanted sexual touching.  There maybe a few cases of confusion or misunderstanding but not in the numbers being reported. Brushing this off is exactly the wrong approach and exactly why we are in the situation we are in.
Optio

Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 487,300
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,833
    • The job.
Re: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF
« Reply #883 on: November 29, 2016, 21:37:33 »
Of all the posts in these 24-pages, I wonder how many were made by women?

I know gender shouldn't make a difference on the job, but perhaps in a discussion such as this more "womansplaining" would help?

My sister made her career in the Regular Force, but I have never spoken to her about anything like this.

The retired RCMP guy out my way said a some of his buddies were expelling bricks all through the RCMP class action.

Do RCMP work in two-officer cars with permanent partners?

Reason I ask is I remember being cooped up in a radio unit with the same partner 12-hours a day, 40-hours a week, year after year.

Nothing to do except wait for the next 9-1-1 call.

It's the little things that wear down your nerves. Constant foot-tapping, constantly opening and closing the glove compartment etc...  :)

Over time, partners, sometimes mixed gender, may develop powerful bonding dynamics. Sometimes that's a positive, sometimes negative.

I read once that partnerships should be broken up after 16 months. But, I never saw it happen.

Not to suggest that could have prevented the $100 million RCMP lawsuit.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 08:24:59 by mariomike »

Offline beachdown

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • -3,660
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 69
Re: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF
« Reply #884 on: November 29, 2016, 22:00:40 »
It might NOT have happened to you or your friends, but that doesn't mean there aren't cases. Today in Kingston, a Captain was reduced to the rank of Lt. He was being charged with sexual assault and disgraceful behaviour, but a deal was reached

I'm curious if the numbers of sexual assault or harassment are higher amongst NCMs than Officers. I myself am an officer and all of my female friends (also officers) have reported they have never seen or heard about such things or if they happened to them.

Offline beachdown

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • -3,660
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 69
Re: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the
« Reply #885 on: November 29, 2016, 22:02:55 »
Where have you be living? If you have kids that are in school, you will know it's drilled into them on a daily basis to "keep their hands to themselves". So, if kids can get it, I don't see why adults can't really

Can you tell me what unwanted sexual touching is?

Can anyone? The recipient is the one who decides what it is, in my mind.

So should we adopt a "no touch policy" ? Is that what it's coming to?

Offline Jarnhamar

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 268,516
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,326
Re: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF
« Reply #886 on: November 29, 2016, 22:09:41 »
It might NOT have happened to you or your friends, but that doesn't mean there aren't cases. Today in Kingston, a Captain was reduced to the rank of Lt. He was being charged with sexual assault and disgraceful behaviour, but a deal was reached

Maybe we should stop making deals with sexual predators.
There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 217,085
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,569
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF
« Reply #887 on: November 29, 2016, 22:14:51 »
Maybe we should stop making deals with sexual predators.

I second that motion.

How could we even think of trying to keep a Commissioned Officer on the payroll after being found guilty of something like that?

Any trust his troops may have had in him has evaporated and, as a result, he is essentially unemployable in any military unit AFAIC.
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline beachdown

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • -3,660
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 69
Re: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF
« Reply #888 on: November 29, 2016, 22:21:11 »
Whisper among the NCM corps is that he got away lightly because he is an officer / ring knocker...can't say I buy into this personally

Maybe we should stop making deals with sexual predators.

Offline Tcm621

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 7,650
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 662
Re: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF
« Reply #889 on: November 29, 2016, 22:38:31 »
Why don't we give the people reporting this a bit more credit.  Most men and women know the difference between a pat on the shoulder and unwanted sexual touching.  There maybe a few cases of confusion or misunderstanding but not in the numbers being reported. Brushing this off is exactly the wrong approach and exactly why we are in the situation we are in.
I'm not brushing it off and I am sure it isn't a pat on the shoulder in the vast majority of cases but in absence of a definition we can't say.  Part of the problem with the whole culture built up around these issues is the ever changing playing field.

I grew up with a certain way that women were supposed to treated a certain way. Then I found out that it was sexist to treat women any different from men. Then when we start treating them like men,  I find out that it is inappropriate to talk and act that way around women.

I would like to see some clear definitions of what does and does not equal inappropriate behaviour. I can go grab a woman's breast or a dudes crotch.  I can probably pat them on the back (although  only if the girl doesn't think I'm ugly or weird). I used those examples because they are so wide apart. There is far too much ambiguity and the onus on knowing what is appropriate is on the actor but the decision lays with the receiver. I don't want a woman to feel uncomfortable at work and I hope I never make any of my female subordinates or peers feel that way. But (and this will be very controversial so accept that I say this as someone who has helped loved ones deal with sexual assualt) maybe the receiver is over sensitive because of something that happened to them in the past or because they have a set viewpoint they view the world through.

The way forward isn't to vilify CF members or coddle them. Deal with the obvious examples harshly but for the more nuanced issues they should be dealt with on the lowest level with a goal of having everyone leave with an understanding of what is acceptable (good or bad) and the opportunity to move forward. I am afraid op honour isn't creating that climate but rather one in which the leadership gets to show how tough they are on a very politicized issue.

Offline LePadre

  • Guest
  • *
  • 70
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3
Re: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF
« Reply #890 on: November 29, 2016, 22:45:18 »
Victims may have incurred some very real costs as a result of their abuse, and those costs may not be limited to financial ones.

THIS^^^

I registered just to support this comment.

There are real costs to sexual misconduct and assault. Not all these costs are financial. Some of these costs are in lost time, productivity, morale, unit cohesion, mental and emotional wellbeing, use of limited resources, etc... Some of these costs last a lifetime. Often these costs are shared by others such as a spouse, partner, family members, friends, colleagues, etc...





“Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.” John 14:27

Offline beachdown

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • -3,660
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 69
Re: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF
« Reply #891 on: November 29, 2016, 22:51:33 »
Sigh.....how old are you, 12 or something and do you have a mum and sisters? If the answer to the latter is yes, then think of how you will react if a guy off the street touches your mum or sister.

Additionally, it's easy keeping yourself in check....just know your audience, keep your hands to yourself and don't make any misogynistic comments, then you will be good to go. The latter part of your post talks about sensitivity...are you the type that will make a racial joke and then accuse the receiver of being "sensitive" or "playing the racial card"?

I'm not brushing it off and I am sure it isn't a pat on the shoulder in the vast majority of cases but in absence of a definition we can't say.  Part of the problem with the whole culture built up around these issues is the ever changing playing field.

I grew up with a certain way that women were supposed to treated a certain way. Then I found out that it was sexist to treat women any different from men. Then when we start treating them like men,  I find out that it is inappropriate to talk and act that way around women.

I would like to see some clear definitions of what does and does not equal inappropriate behaviour. I can go grab a woman's breast or a dudes crotch.  I can probably pat them on the back (although  only if the girl doesn't think I'm ugly or weird). I used those examples because they are so wide apart. There is far too much ambiguity and the onus on knowing what is appropriate is on the actor but the decision lays with the receiver. I don't want a woman to feel uncomfortable at work and I hope I never make any of my female subordinates or peers feel that way. But (and this will be very controversial so accept that I say this as someone who has helped loved ones deal with sexual assualt) maybe the receiver is over sensitive because of something that happened to them in the past or because they have a set viewpoint they view the world through.

The way forward isn't to vilify CF members or coddle them. Deal with the obvious examples harshly but for the more nuanced issues they should be dealt with on the lowest level with a goal of having everyone leave with an understanding of what is acceptable (good or bad) and the opportunity to move forward. I am afraid op honour isn't creating that climate but rather one in which the leadership gets to show how tough they are on a very politicized issue.

Offline Simian Turner

    is a veteran who enjoys oddities!

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 48,675
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,626
  • Do the right thing; do the thing right!
Re: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF
« Reply #892 on: November 29, 2016, 23:52:57 »
Are serving members saying that between Aug 2015 and the date of the survey they had no better understanding of what inappropriate sexual behaviour is?

The CDS Op Honour Op Order under para 13 stated:

Lines of Effort.  Any harmful and inappropriate sexual behaviour is a real and serious problem within the CAF.  A single act of wrong-doing, regardless whether it is conducted inadvertently or without malice, is one too many.  Even unintentional harm or offense undermines good order and discipline, threatens morale, and reduces operational effectiveness.  We will use a strategy involving four lines of effort:

"a. Understand.  The CAF shall establish a clear understanding of what constitutes harmful and inappropriate sexual behaviour, the means to identify members who are in need of support, and improved reporting and assessment measures;

b. Respond.  The CAF shall institutionalize a cultural change, framed by clear direction and training for leaders on how to better direct and effect culture change throughout the institution;

c. Support.  The CAF shall provide support and better facilitate services to CAF members affected by harmful and inappropriate sexual behaviour including the establishment of a Sexual Misconduct Response Centre (SMRC).  To the extent possible, support to those affected by harmful and inappropriate sexual behavior shall be guided by “do no harm”; and

d. Prevent.  The CAF shall develop a unified policy approach to specifically define what constitutes harmful and inappropriate sexual behaviour in plain language, enhance education and training on harmful and inappropriate sexual behaviour, and establish an objective and enduring capability to measure performance and effect.

I am understanding that despite all of the ongoing training there is no 'unified policy', 'clear definition' or 'clear understanding"?

I prefer to think in terms of - avoid all unnecessary physical contact.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 23:56:44 by Simian Turner »
The grand essentials of happiness: something to do, something to love, something to hope for.  Allan K. Chalmers

Offline Journeyman

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 523,680
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,689
Re: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF
« Reply #893 on: November 30, 2016, 00:49:09 »
Quote
Absolutely not painting them all with the "money grab" brush, but I know if I had to endure something horrible like the stories of the 3 key plantiffs, money would be the furthest thing from my mind. Money in a lawsuit isn't going to fix the problems that allowed them to be taken advantage of. Their stories and advocacy to help shine light on a dark situation is where I see the most good coming out from it.

Spoken like a person who never has experienced harm in that manor.

Stay in your lanes please.  You disgrce my sisters and brothers that sufferd such abuse.
I read that as actually supporting the abuse plaintiffs.....   :stars:

Offline Jarnhamar

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 268,516
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,326
Re: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF
« Reply #894 on: November 30, 2016, 08:19:25 »
Quote from: beachdown
Sigh.....how old are you, 12 or something
You should check your ageism privilege at the door.

Quote
then think of how you will react if a guy off the street touches your mum or sister.
Why does it have to be a guy touching a girl? Why not a guy touching his brother? You know that happens too right. Are you trying to minimize male victims on purpose?

There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline George Wallace

  • Army.ca Fossil
  • *****
  • 435,945
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 31,572
  • Crewman
Re: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF
« Reply #895 on: November 30, 2016, 08:33:12 »

Why does it have to be a guy touching a girl? Why not a guy touching his brother? You know that happens too right. Are you trying to minimize male victims on purpose?

Why stop there?  Why not a woman touching a man.....or another woman?  That does happen in the CAF.

Is this topic not specific to one thing : "Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct"?  It is not solely aimed at "MEN" being the perpetrators of these actions.
DISCLAIMER: The opinions and arguments of George Wallace posted on this Site are solely those of George Wallace and not the opinion of Army.ca and are posted for information purposes only.
Unless so stated, they are reflective of my opinion -- and my opinion only, a right that I enjoy along with every other Canadian citizen.

Offline the 48th regulator

    A mans gotta eat.

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 47,325
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,922
  • Emancipate yourself from mental slavery.
    • Green Veterans Canada
Re: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF
« Reply #896 on: November 30, 2016, 08:46:21 »
I read that as actually supporting the abuse plaintiffs.....   :stars:

Of course you would....... :rofl:

Please.
I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.

Offline Lightguns

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 24,970
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,033
  • I live for trout and deer
Re: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF
« Reply #897 on: November 30, 2016, 10:08:20 »
Why stop there?  Why not a woman touching a man.....or another woman?  That does happen in the CAF.

Is this topic not specific to one thing : "Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct"?  It is not solely aimed at "MEN" being the perpetrators of these actions.

If the touch is unwanted or not necessary for a job related purpose, then those examples quality.  It is not gender specific thing. 
Done, 34 years, 43 days complete, got's me damn pension!

Offline Tcm621

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 7,650
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 662
Re: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF
« Reply #898 on: November 30, 2016, 10:59:56 »


Sigh.....how old are you, 12 or something and do you have a mum and sisters? If the answer to the latter is yes, then think of how you will react if a guy off the street touches your mum or sister.

Additionally, it's easy keeping yourself in check....just know your audience, keep your hands to yourself and don't make any misogynistic comments, then you will be good to go. The latter part of your post talks about sensitivity...are you the type that will make a racial joke and then accuse the receiver of being "sensitive" or "playing the racial card"?

Yes,  I'm a 12 year old with more than 20 years in the CAF.

So if I read your post right,  you believe we should just have a blatant no touch rule? If would make so things simpler. However,  touch is a huge part of social communication and is common across all cultures. It is one way humans interact. We shouldn't have to provide guidance on what is considered appropriate but apparently some people don't get it. 

I am fully aware of what victims of sexual abuse have to deal with. More so than a lot of people and I will always stand up to assist someone who is being assaulted, sexually or otherwise. But this survey and op honour are not,  IMO,  about helping victims of true sexual abuse. The survey was going to come back bad, we all knew it. I didn't feel I was able to properly express my views because the questions were illiterate to open to interpretation or skewed to a desired response.


Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


Offline beachdown

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • -3,660
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 69
Re: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF
« Reply #899 on: November 30, 2016, 13:12:29 »
"More than 20yrs in" doesn't always mean a person is wiser or knows what NOT to say or do. Again, we teach our kids to keeps their hands to themselves at school, and am sure if your kid/s came home and said someone touched them, you will be all over it like a rash.

If you know a touch has the potential to be misconstrued, why would you want to continue doing it with everything in the news and papers? It's not so much the touching for me, but the constant vile/crass language in the CAF that rubs me the wrong way at times. It seems some people can't even comprehend when their comment or use of words borders on misogyny / verbal harassment / racial


Yes,  I'm a 12 year old with more than 20 years in the CAF.

So if I read your post right,  you believe we should just have a blatant no touch rule? If would make so things simpler. However,  touch is a huge part of social communication and is common across all cultures. It is one way humans interact. We shouldn't have to provide guidance on what is considered appropriate but apparently some people don't get it. 

I am fully aware of what victims of sexual abuse have to deal with. More so than a lot of people and I will always stand up to assist someone who is being assaulted, sexually or otherwise. But this survey and op honour are not,  IMO,  about helping victims of true sexual abuse. The survey was going to come back bad, we all knew it. I didn't feel I was able to properly express my views because the questions were illiterate to open to interpretation or skewed to a desired response.


Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk