Topic: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF

[FJAG]

A reminder:  under the Charter, "Any person charged with an offence has the right ... to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal ..."

I have always wondered, does this mean that the accused has the right to be presumed innocent by all until proven guilty, or just by the independent and impartial tribunal hearing the case and meting out punishment. Is there a difference between being innocent from a legal stand point, and being innocent from a moral stand point?

It's not so much a "moral" question as a "public/private opinion" one.

The totality of s 11(d) reads:

Proceedings in criminal and penal matters

11. Any person charged with an offence has the right

(d) to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal;

Essentially this means that in cases where charges are laid that have criminal or penal consequences the government (prosecution) must prove the individual guilty beyond a reasonable doubt before a fair and impartial tribunal. Laws cannot be created or circumstances allowed to exist whereby the individual is directly or indirectly presumed to be guilty and therefore required to prove his innocence. (There can, however, be low level non-criminal, non-penal strict or absolute liability offences where such presumptions do exist)

S11(d) is not a section that can dictate what public or private opinions are with respect to a given case. It only applies to the government (all levels). On the other hand, defamation laws might very well apply to members of the public that make statements that are not factual and that defame an accused before a conviction is entered.

Out of both an abundance of caution, and out of general fairness to the accused, we tend to withhold our opinions as to an individual's culpability until the trial process has taken its course.

 

[sailorprivateer]

A CF member arrested at CFLRS for sexual assault:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/military-investigate-sexual-assault-saint-jean-garrison-1.3850400

Article seems to imply a connection to BMQ, but there are no details of incident, victim or accused.

A Redditor claims he knows the suspect but didn't specify more.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/comments/5cz4fo/military_police_investigate_alleged_sexual/da16iqx/

[Flavus101]

A Redditor claims he knows the suspect but didn't specify more.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/comments/5cz4fo/military_police_investigate_alleged_sexual/da16iqx/

For very good reason. This is a prime example about how "social media" can get people in trouble.

That thread is a cesspool already, no surprise from reddit.

[milnews.ca]

A reminder:  under the Charter, "Any person charged with an offence has the right ... to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal ..."

"Sexual assault charge laid against student at Royal Military College"

[Halifax Tar]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/proposed-lawsuit-alleges-discrimination-bullying-in-canadian-armed-forces-1.3861109

The Canadian Armed Forces is rife with sexual misconduct and harassment of women, according to a proposed class-action lawsuit that claims systemic gender and sexual orientation-based discrimination.

More on link above.

[Hamish Seggie]

A bit of the story:

"The accounts of rampant, routine sexual discrimination, bullying and unwanted sexual advances against female members are astonishing," he said. "This frequent misconduct is part of a troubling and deeply embedded culture that female members have been forced to endure. It's time to step back, acknowledge how wrong it is, and take a stand against it."

And the CAF has.

I'm very annoyed with some lawyers deciding that we're all guilty and labeling an entire profession, my profession. I really do wish someone would step up on behalf of past and current members of the CAF to tell this particular lawyer to "Stuff it".

Offer up some proof....not just uncorroborated garbage.

[LunchMeat]

A bit of the story:

"The accounts of rampant, routine sexual discrimination, bullying and unwanted sexual advances against female members are astonishing," he said. "This frequent misconduct is part of a troubling and deeply embedded culture that female members have been forced to endure. It's time to step back, acknowledge how wrong it is, and take a stand against it."

And the CAF has.

I'm very annoyed with some lawyers deciding that we're all guilty and labeling an entire profession, my profession. I really do wish someone would step up on behalf of past and current members of the CAF to tell this particular lawyer to "Stuff it".

Offer up some proof....not just uncorroborated garbage.

There was a female Soldier that came forward in the media to say that in her decade or so years of service, she never experienced any of this so called "systematic" assaults and harassment.

But clearly her opinion doesn't matter.

[Halifax Tar]

There was a female Soldier that came forward in the media to say that in her decade or so years of service, she never experienced any of this so called "systematic" assaults and harassment.

But clearly her opinion doesn't matter.

Link ?  I would like to read that.

[mariomike]

"Wagner said an eventual case would seek damages, but the amount wouldn't be determined until its known how many women decide to be part of the class."

Could be expensive,

Mounties offer apology and $100M compensation for harassment, sexual abuse against female members
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-paulson-compensation-harassment-1.3793785

[PuckChaser]

Do I get to file a counter suit for defamation of character because I'm constantly bring accused of being a rapist just because I'm male?

[Jarnhamar]

Do I get to file a counter suit for defamation of character because I'm constantly bring accused of being a rapist just because I'm male?

I'll be identifying as a female and jumping on board with this lawsuit.   

[daftandbarmy]

Do I get to file a counter suit for defamation of character because I'm constantly bring accused of being a rapist just because I'm male?

You clearly have not read the manual: 

"All animals are equal. But some animals are more equal than others." George Orwell

[Lightguns]

I am not sure what all the hurt is about.  if you have never raped anyone you should not worry.  In fact in a class action suit, all the rapists and abusers are actually not going to be effected or even have to worry, the organization will pay for the sins of the guilty.  The reality is that the court case will decide whether there is merit and at what level that merit should be applied to a remedy.  I have directed 3 women I know who have suffered during their time in the CAF.  If you know of someone, you should do the same and help (Hopefully) bring closure to this unfortunate event.

[Kat Stevens]

I am not sure what all the hurt is about.  if you have never raped anyone you should not worry.  In fact in a class action suit, all the rapists and abusers are actually not going to be effected or even have to worry, the organization will pay for the sins of the guilty.  The reality is that the court case will decide whether there is merit and at what level that merit should be applied to a remedy.  I have directed 3 women I know who have suffered during their time in the CAF.  If you know of someone, you should do the same and help (Hopefully) bring closure to this unfortunate event.

Except that when you call something "systematic" (i think they meant systemic, but whatever) you are painting every individual in it as either a perpetrator, enabler, or victim.  Men are already all seen as potential rapists and abusers, just by virtue of being in possession of a certain appendage and its two dependents, and this just perpetuates and reinforces that.

[Brasidas]

Link ?  I would like to read that.

Ashley Turner. I keep getting dead links, but she might be able to get you a copy herself.

A stock photo of her with an M-72 got used alongside a reference to the big report last year, she took exception to her image being shoved together with it, and she wrote a letter to the folks who had done so. Metro appears to have nuked both the original article and her rebuttal.

Here's about the best I can find atm:

http://republicbuzz.com/cpl-ashley-turner-dont-associate-me-with-that-sexualized-culture-in-the-military-report
https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/36246s/cpl_ashley_turner_dont_associate_me_with_that/

[PuckChaser]

Report from the "voluntary" survey are to be released Monday, CDS expected the results to be "sobering" back in August.

http://ipolitics.ca/2016/11/24/sobering-survey-on-sexual-harassment-in-military-coming-monday/

[Jarnhamar]

Report from the "voluntary" survey

Yup. Most people I know that completed the survey, myself included, felt harassed into doing so.

[milnews.ca]

Report from the "voluntary" survey are to be released Monday, CDS expected the results to be "sobering" back in August.

http://ipolitics.ca/2016/11/24/sobering-survey-on-sexual-harassment-in-military-coming-monday/

Deep breaths, folks ...

Canada's top soldier is vowing to punish or expel all abusive perpetrators from the military in the wake of a new survey by Statistics Canada that found 960 full-time members, or some 1.7 per cent of the regular force, reported sexual assault in the past year.

Responding to the StatsCan survey, Gen. Jonathan Vance said he is "extremely disappointed" that members have defied his explicit commands under Operation Honour.

"My orders were clear, my expectations were clear," said Vance, chief of the defence staff, calling the survey results "regrettably" sobering.

The statistics involved incidents that took place in the workplace or in situations involving military members, National Defence employees or contractors.

The survey also found that more than a quarter of all women in the military, or 27.3 per cent, reported sexual assault at least once over their military careers. That is "significantly higher" than the proportion of men, 3.8 per cent, who reported assault during their careers ...

This, from the CDS/CF Info-machine:

The Chief of the Defence Staff, General Jonathan Vance, today addressed the results of the Statistics Canada survey on Sexual Misconduct in the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF).

The volunteer survey, the first of its kind in the CAF, asked members about their experiences and their perceptions of sexual misconduct within the CAF. Conducted from April to June 2016, it used an online questionnaire distributed to Regular Force and Primary Reserve members.

More than 43,000 responses were collected from Regular Force and Primary Reserve CAF members, representing 53% of the CAF population.

The Statistics Canada survey provides support to the findings presented in the 2015 Deschamps Report. However, the scope of this survey extends far beyond the Deschamps Report by virtue of the number of respondents and the range of topics covered.

The survey gives CAF leadership and members a more detailed picture of the scope, prevalence and nature of the problem of sexual misconduct. Increasing this understanding is a key component of Operation HONOUR, which is based on two key principles:

    Every man and woman who serves their country deserves to be treated with dignity and respect – anything less is simply unacceptable; and

    Any attitudes or behaviours which undermine the cohesion and confidence of serving members threatens the morale and operational readiness of the CAF.

The survey results show that sexual assaults (unwanted sexual touching, sexual attack, and sexual activity to which the victim is unable to consent) are occurring at a rate well above that of the general Canadian population, and that discriminatory behavior continues to negatively affect many of our members.

Sexual assault

    In the twelve months preceding the survey, 1.7% (or 960) Regular Force members reported that they were victims of sexual assault in the military workplace or involving military members. Unwanted sexual touching was the most common form of sexual assault, reported by 1.5% (or 840) Regular Force members.

    Women in the Regular Force were more likely than men to be sexually assaulted (4.8% versus 1.2%) in the twelve months preceding the survey.

Sexualized and discriminatory behaviours

    79% members of the Regular Forces saw, heard, or were personally targeted by sexualized behaviour in the military workplace or involving military members, Department of National Defence employees, or contractors.

    Sexual jokes were the most common type of sexualized behavior in the workplace, witnessed or experienced by 76% of Regular Force members.

Knowledge and perception of policies and responses to sexual misconduct

    The vast majority of Regular Force members were somewhat or very aware of Operation HONOUR (98%).

    81% of Regular Force members strongly agreed that complaints about inappropriate sexual behavior are (or would be) taken seriously in their current unit, while 78% agree that inappropriate behavior is not tolerated in their unit.

The results of this survey will serve as a benchmark against which Operation Honour can be measured. The CAF is analyzing the survey results and developing an action plan that will enhance continuing efforts to support and assist victims, increase awareness and understanding of the nature of harmful and inappropriate sexual behavior, and effect lasting culture change.

Quotes

    “CAF members have responded in unprecedented numbers about their experience and perceptions of inappropriate sexual behavior, discrimination and sexual assault within the Canadian Armed Forces. This information is critical for all of us to understand the true scope and nature of the problem in our institution, and as well the challenges members continue to face and where we must realign our action plan in order to achieve the mission of Operation HONOUR and ensure a workplace free from harassment and discrimination.

    “Harmful sexual behaviour is a real and present threat to our institution. Those who commit such acts are betraying the values of the country they are sworn to defend. The information in this survey will give us a better understanding of the scope and nature of the problem, allowing us to target our efforts under Operation HONOUR to eliminate this behaviour.”

    General Jonathan Vance, Chief of the Defence Staff

    “While it is sobering and disappointing to know that members continue to be victimized and feel threatened in our work environment, this survey provides us with the specific evidence we need to focus our efforts on culture change and  to eliminate the threat these behaviours represent to the Profession of Arms.”

    Chief Warrant Officer Kevin West ...

... and this from Stats Can:

About 960 Regular Force members of the Canadian Armed Forces, or 1.7%, reported being victims of sexual assault during the previous 12 months either in the military workplace or in situations involving military members, Department of National Defence employees or contractors. Sexual assault includes unwanted sexual touching, sexual attacks and sexual activity to which the victim is unable to consent (see note to readers for key concepts and definitions).

Female Regular Force members were four times more likely than males to report being sexually assaulted in the past 12 months (4.8% compared with 1.2%). In total, this represented approximately 380 women and 570 men.

Among those serving in the Primary Reserve, which predominantly consists of part-time members, 2.6% reported that they were victims of sexual assault in the past 12 months. Female Primary Reserve members (8.2%) were more likely than their male (1.4%) counterparts to report having been victims of sexual assault in the past 12 months.

When measuring sexual assault in the general population, incidents are not limited to those that occur in the workplace or involve co-workers. That said, the prevalence of sexual assault is lower among the general working population than in the Regular Force and the Primary Reserve. Among working Canadians, 0.9% reported being victims of sexual assault in any situation.

Results from the 2016 Survey on Sexual Misconduct in the Canadian Armed Forces, which surveyed male and female members of both the Regular Force and the Primary Reserve in Canada, are now available. Findings from this survey are included in the publication Sexual misconduct in the Canadian Armed Forces, 2016, and Infographics presenting an overview of results are available for the Regular Force and the Primary Reserve. Results are generally consistent with previous research conducted in the military context in Canada and in other countries, which has found that women in the military are at greater risk than men of being victims of sexual assault.

Majority of incidents of sexual assault involve unwanted touching

The most common form of sexual assault was unwanted sexual touching, with 1.5% of Regular Force members stating that they were victims. Other forms of sexual assault, sexual attacks (0.3%) and sexual activity to which the victim was unable to consent (0.2%), were less common. A similar breakdown was also observed among members of the Primary Reserve.

Regardless of the type of sexual assault, women in the Regular Force were more likely than men to have been victims in the past 12 months. Specifically, women were four times more likely than men to experience unwanted sexual touching (4.0% versus 1.1%), five times more likely to be sexually attacked (0.9% versus 0.2%), and six times more likely to be subjected to sexual activity to which they were unable to consent (0.7% versus 0.1%).

Just over one in ten (12%) Regular Force members who were victims of sexual assault stated that they were victims of more than one type of sexual assault in the past 12 months, while 77% stated that the only form they experienced was unwanted sexual touching.

Reporting of sexual assault to authorities

Almost one in four (23%) victims of sexual assault in the past 12 months reported at least one incident of sexual assault to someone in authority, most often their military supervisor (20%). Less than 1 in 10 (7%) reported their victimization to the Military Police or the Canadian Forces National Investigation Service.

In instances where sexual assault took more severe forms, victims were more likely to report to military police. While 5% of those who were victims of unwanted sexual touching reported an incident to police, just over one in five of those who were sexually attacked (22%) or subjected to sexual activity to which they could not consent because they were drugged, intoxicated or manipulated (21%) reported at least once incident to police.

Among those who did not report their sexual assault to the authorities, resolving it on their own was the most common reason given for not reporting (43% of women and 41% of men). Women who were sexually assaulted were more likely (35%) than men (14%) to state that they did not report the victimization to anyone because they were afraid of negative consequences or because they had concerns about the formal complaint process (18% versus 7%). Men were more likely than women (40% versus 23%) to consider the behaviour not serious enough to report.

Female victims more likely to identify supervisor or higher-ranking personnel as perpetrator

Women who were victims of sexual assault in the past 12 months were most likely to identify their supervisor or someone of a higher rank as the perpetrator of the assault (49%). In contrast, male victims most commonly identified a peer or peers as the person(s) responsible (56%) for the assault.

A smaller proportion of victims of sexual assault (6%) stated that the perpetrator was an intimate partner (dating partner, spouse or common-law partner) who was also a Canadian Armed Forces member or Department of National Defence employee or contractor, while 8% stated that the perpetrator was a stranger. These proportions were similar for men and women.

Sexual assault during military career

In addition to asking about their experiences of sexual assault in the past 12 months, members were asked about sexual assault over the course of their military career. Overall, more than one-quarter (27.3%) of women reported having been victims of sexual assault at least once since joining the Canadian Armed Forces, significantly higher than the proportion of men (3.8%). As was the case among those who were victims in the past 12 months, unwanted sexual touching was the most common type of sexual assault experienced.

Inappropriate sexualized and discriminatory behaviours

Beyond sexual assault, the study also explored a number of inappropriate sexualized and discriminatory behaviours, which can contribute to a broader sexualized culture within the workplace. Almost four in five (79%) members of the Regular Force saw, heard or personally experienced inappropriate sexualized behaviour during the past 12 months, which included inappropriate verbal or non-verbal communication, sexually explicit materials, unwanted contact or suggested sexual relationships (see note to readers).

Sexual jokes were the most common type of inappropriate sexualized behaviour, witnessed or experienced by 76% of Regular Force members. This was followed by inappropriate sexual comments (39%) and inappropriate discussion about sex life (34%).

One in three (34%) Regular Force members saw, heard or personally experienced behaviour that was discriminatory on the basis of sex, sexual orientation or gender identity. Stereotyping based on sex (that is, suggestions that an individual does not act the way a person of their sex is supposed to act) was the most common type of discriminatory behaviour witnessed in the workplace in the past 12 months, with 22% of Regular Force members reporting this behaviour.
About one in five Regular Force members personally targeted by inappropriate sexualized or discriminatory behaviours

About one in five (17%) Regular Force members reported being the targets of inappropriate sexualized or discriminatory behaviour either in the military workplace or involving other military members within the past 12 months. Women were twice as likely as men (31% versus 15%) to report being personally targeted by these types of behaviour.

Regardless of the specific type of inappropriate sexualized or discriminatory behaviours, women were more likely than men to have personally experienced them at least once in the past 12 months. Women were considerably more likely than men to experience unwanted sexual attention (15% versus 2%) or repeated pressure from the same person for dates or sexual relationships (6% versus 0.4%).

Regular Force members generally considered discriminatory behaviours to be more offensive than sexualized behaviours. About 6 in 10 of those who witnessed (or experienced) someone being insulted, mistreated, ignored or excluded because of their sex (63%), sexual orientation (62%) or gender identity (58%) believed that this behaviour was offensive.

The proportion who considered sexualized behaviours to be offensive ranged from 10% among those who witnessed or experienced sexual jokes, to 51% of those who witnessed or experienced the offering of workplace benefits in exchange for sexual relationships. Additionally, for each type of behaviour measured, a greater proportion of women than men considered them to be offensive.
Perceptions of the response of the Canadian Armed Forces to sexual misconduct

Despite the occurence of inappropriate sexualized and discriminatory behaviour within the Canadian Armed Forces, most members had positive perceptions of the way sexual misconduct is or would be addressed in their unit. About 8 in 10 members strongly agreed that complaints about inappropriate sexual behavior are (or would be) taken seriously (81%) and that this behaviour is not tolerated (78%) in their current unit. Male Regular Force members (82%) were somewhat more likely than their female counterparts (74%) to strongly agree that complaints are or would be taken seriously and that inappropriate sexual behaviour is not tolerated in their unit (79% versus 72%).

While most Regular Force members reported believing that inappropriate sexual behaviour is not tolerated and is taken seriously in their current unit, 36% of men and 51% of women reported believing that inappropriate sexual behaviour is a problem within the Canadian Armed Forces as a whole. Those who were victims of sexual assault or who were targeted by inappropriate sexualized or discriminatory behaviour within the past 12 months were more likely to believe that inappropriate sexual behaviour is a problem in the Canadian Armed Forces.

Members were also asked about Operation Honour, which was implemented in August 2015 and is a Canadian Armed Forces-wide program designed to end inappropriate sexual behaviour in the workplace and provide support to members who have been affected. Nearly all (98%) Regular Force members stated that they were aware of Operation Honour. Overall, one-third (32%) of Regular Force members believed that Operation Honour will be very or extremely effective, 37% believed that it will be moderately effective, and 30% believed that it will only be slightly effective or not effective at all.

(...)

From April to June 2016, active Regular Force and Primary Reserve members were invited to complete a voluntary survey conducted under the authority of the Statistics Act asking about their experiences and perceptions of inappropriate sexualized behaviour, discrimination on the basis of sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity, and sexual assault within the CAF. This included witnessing or experiencing these types of behaviours within the military workplace, or outside the military workplace but involving other military members or Department of Defence employees or contractors.

... Responses were received from over 43,000 active members of the CAF, including members of the Regular Force and Primary Reserve. Regular Force members had a higher response rate (61%) than those in the Primary Reserve (36%). As with all Statistics Canada surveys, respondents were informed that their individual responses would be protected under the Statistics Act.

As of February 2016, women accounted for 15% of the CAF ...

[FJAG]

I'm always a bit reluctant to accept statistics without seeing the background information. Unfortunately this report does not link to raw or corrected/weighted data which makes it difficult.

Two points came to my attention.

The first is that around 90% of all respondents believe that systemically the CF and it's chain of command takes these matters seriously and is/are responding appropriately to complaints which is a good thing. I don't see that statistic being played up in the press at all.

Second is the fact that the report states 1.7% of the regular force and 2.6% of the reserve force report having experienced a sexual assault (which includes everything from extreme-end rape etc to the low end of unwanted sexual touching) while the statistic for the working civilian population appears to be 0.9% in any situation. I have a problem as to the source of the 0.9% figure as when I go to the 2014 StatsCan Criminal Victimization in Canada survey it shows that for the periods of 1999, 2004, 2009, 2014 the percentage of individuals reporting being the subject of "violent victimization for sexual assault" (the definition of which-despite the addition of the word "violent"-is the same as for the CAF survey) runs in the area of 2.0 to 2.2%. See: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2015001/article/14241-eng.htm which would generally put the reg force below the national average and the reserves somewhat above the national rate.

For me that's a significant difference and deserves a better explanation. I think any time that we're told that we commit offences within the CF at twice the rate of the civilian working population we need to analyze very clearly as to why that is. The first step is to see if the statistics being cited are comparing apples to apples. If anyone knows where the 0.9% comes from I'd be interested.

 

[slayer14]

I'm curious if the numbers of sexual assault or harassment are higher amongst NCMs than Officers. I myself am an officer and all of my female friends (also officers) have reported they have never seen or heard about such things or if they happened to them.

[Eagle Eye View]

Yes according to the survey: more than half of people who reported they were the victim of a sexual assault said the perpetrator was an NCM ranked MCpl/MS or lower, and one in three said the perpetrator was an NCM of Sgt/PO2 rank or higher.

[George Wallace]

I heard some of the comments in the House during Question Period, and this whole matter is turning into a statistical nightmare.  Statistics are being used to make a mountain out of a molehill.  Yes, sexual assault and sexual misconduct are contemptible acts and we must educate our troops and be very stringent in applying the correct disciplinary actions in the correct manner; but the way the Members of Parliament and the MSM are bending statistics is not benefiting the CAF. 

If you look at the actual percentage is as FJAG states above, well below the NATIONAL AVERAGE, it is in my opinion not a serious problem and should be reported as that; not as a means to disgrace the CAF.

I heard comments in Question Period of high numbers of members reporting witnessing Sexual Assault/Misconduct and the question entered my mind: "could those high numbers be a large group of people reporting witnessing the same singular event?"  I a Sgt Major (Old School) berated a member on parade in front of 400 people, 400 people could report that single event on such a survey.  What conclusions would someone not at that event draw from those statistics?

[Eye In The Sky]

I'd also be interested to see the numbers on (1) how many complaints were made that (2) went to the investigation, with charges laid and (3) lead to a guilty finding.

Anyone can make a complaint, or put whatever they want on a survey.  I guess I still hold onto that whole innocent until proven guilty stuff. 

[Brihard]

I'd also be interested to see the numbers on (1) how many complaints were made that (2) went to the investigation, with charges laid and (3) lead to a guilty finding.

Anyone can make a complaint, or put whatever they want on a survey.  I guess I still hold onto that whole innocent until proven guilty stuff.

Innocent until proven guilty applies to the individual. In statistical terms, two equally valid measures of criminality used for research are self-reported victimization surveys, and uniform crime reporting of substantiated offences (note that substantiated does not mean the same as successfully convicted). There has long been a massive delta between self-reported victimization in sexual offences, and sexual offences reported to police. There are many barriers to reporting this type of crime, and the more 'professional' one's existence, the more pronounced some of them are.

[daftandbarmy]

Innocent until proven guilty applies to the individual. In statistical terms, two equally valid measures of criminality used for research are self-reported victimization surveys, and uniform crime reporting of substantiated offences (note that substantiated does not mean the same as successfully convicted). There has long been a massive delta between self-reported victimization in sexual offences, and sexual offences reported to police. There are many barriers to reporting this type of crime, and the more 'professional' one's existence, the more pronounced some of them are.

And depending on how the organization deals with it, you can make a problem like this much worse in a variety of ways.