CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia

[dapaterson]

Is that actually what the living quarters are like there?

That's what I've heard, five bunkbeds in a room.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Asking the question.

Would there not be a ton of people wanting to go to Europe and Latvia? I thought it was nice but I just got a one day visit. Not as expensive as other European countries plus with Estonia next door even cheaper.

Depends on the TF Comd and how stringent they are about stuff like leave in theatre and the left and right of arc for troops in situ.

Doing the Eurotrip thing would be a great plan... if CJOC et al gotrid of the "Tour=Kandahar" mentality. Perhaps having a permanent presence might change that.

We did 40 years in Germany......did we forget how?

Why do 6 months? Move the family?

@dapaterson hit the nail on the head. Folks are packed in like sardines, and it's not just a Canadian problem. Couple with the fact that Germany took 40 years to go from being what it started out as to what we left, not a sustainable model.

We are having a hard enough time housing families in Canada, on land we own, let alone dropping a large enough PMQ patch in a country smaller than New Bruinswick.

 

[dapaterson]

On the plus side, Latvia doesn't leave us beholden to the Irvings.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

On the plus side, Latvia doesn't leave us beholden to the Irvings.

Irving will find a way. They always do.

 

[FJAG]

Moving families requires a large infra footprint, to a place where we currently have people ten to a room. Might be a long term objective, but can't see that happening in the near term.

I don't think that's the problem. The problem, IMHO, is that the CAF as a whole is led by people (military and civilian) who are a product of the Afghanistan method of doing deployments. The CFE generation is, like me, sitting at home in retirement and gnashing their teeth.

We've been in Latvia since shortly after 2016 when the Warsaw summit as a result of Russia's first bit of nastiness in Ukraine. We've had well over five years to figure out that this would be a long term commitment. It's been almost a year and a half since the 2nd outrage which makes it plain that it's a real long-term commitment. This isn't rocket science; it's basically common sense. If the army truly doesn't want to burn its people out with continuous 6 month deployment cycles it needs a different paradigm. Again, IMHO, that's solved by a fairly robust posted logistics and (robust but not gigantic) headquarters structure, at least some posted unit elements, small rotos for a full-time presence and a flyover plan for major exercises (all of which can have a total force construct.

Make a plan and build the infrastructure or, better yet, have the Latvians build the infrastructure.

 

[Blackadder1916]

@dapaterson hit the nail on the head. Folks are packed in like sardines, and it's not just a Canadian problem. Couple with the fact that Germany took 40 years to go from being what it started out as to what we left, not a sustainable model.

We are having a hard enough time housing families in Canada, on land we own, let alone dropping a large enough PMQ patch in a country smaller than New Bruinswick.

And our southern footprint there grew from what was an already existing French presence.

 

[FJAG]

... dropping a large enough PMQ patch in a country smaller than New Bruinswick.

or - let folks live on the economy like many did in Europe. So many options. Only our risk aversion is getting in the way.

 

[dapaterson]

So, can the local area around the base in Latvia support 2K CAF members and families? Are there sufficient apartments/ homes for rent? Are there schools for their children?

Or should we just say fuck it, you're military, figure it out for yourself?

 

[Furniture]

I don't think that's the problem. The problem, IMHO, is that the CAF as a whole is led by people (military and civilian) who are a product of the Afghanistan method of doing deployments. The CFE generation is, like me, sitting at home in retirement and gnashing their teeth.

We've been in Latvia since shortly after 2016 when the Warsaw summit as a result of Russia's first bit of nastiness in Ukraine. We've had well over five years to figure out that this would be a long term commitment. It's been almost a year and a half since the 2nd outrage which makes it plain that it's a real long-term commitment. This isn't rocket science; it's basically common sense. If the army truly doesn't want to burn its people out with continuous 6 month deployment cycles it needs a different paradigm. Again, IMHO, that's solved by a fairly robust posted logistics and (robust but not gigantic) headquarters structure, at least some posted unit elements, small rotos for a full-time presence and a flyover plan for major exercises (all of which can have a total force construct.

Make a plan and build the infrastructure or, better yet, have the Latvians build the infrastructure.

You're assuming the GoC is interested in spending that kind of cash on the CAF.

I suspect that the GoC doesn't care about CAF member's burnout, they just care about getting people there while they are spinning up for the next election.

 

[FJAG]

So, can the local area around the base in Latvia support 2K CAF members and families? Are there sufficient apartments/ homes for rent? Are there schools for their children?

Or should we just say fuck it, you're military, figure it out for yourself?

I find that whenever an institution doesn't want to progress, it can find a hundred reasons for not doing so.

Latvia has 1.8 million people and Riga, which is close by has 605,000 inhabitants.

I never suggested 2,000 folks. I'm thinking more like 800 to 1,000 full-time posted in people, not all of which have families. So, do I think that Riga has the infrastructure to take in up to 1,000 family units. Yup. I sure do. I'll go further and say that with planning, it will take 2,000 family units without any sweat. Lahr had a population of around 35,000 back in the day. There's more than sufficient housing and room to expand housing in the area if you plan it.

You're assuming the GoC is interested in spending that kind of cash on the CAF.

I suspect that the GoC doesn't care about CAF member's burnout, they just care about getting people there while they are spinning up for the next election.

Honestly, I don't think its a big cost matter. Salaries are a wash anyway and there are certain allowances that wouldn't be necessary for posted folks. If you work something out with the Latvian government so that they build and own the infrastructure (including single quarters) in exchange for tenants renting (at their expense) then you are left with a much smaller capital outlay.

What people seem to forget is that a posting to CFE was a perk back in the day that was a recruiting draw and a retention factor plus it brought back people to units in Canada with significant experience and a rounded view of the world and how to operate in multinational higher formations. Like the Mastercard ad says - that's priceless.

But you're right. Unless DND does the math, comes up with options, and sells it to the GoC as a viable COA, it'll never happen. The GoC isn't going to come to this wisdom by osmosis.

 

[Furniture]

But you're right. Unless DND does the math, comes up with options, and sells it to the GoC as a viable COA, it'll never happen. The GoC isn't going to come to this wisdom by osmosis.

The CMP Command Chief did a Chief's Coffee a few months ago at the Ottawa C&POs, the essence of the message he passed was that the GoC wasn't particularly concerned with the CAF's recruitment/retention issues. Money was not going to be coming, and the CAF would just have to live with what it gets. The savings of $30M CAD with CFHD is a perfect example of that... It's a "benefit" that will likely cost the CAF experienced members, but looks great on a spreadsheet at TB meetings.

 

[Spencer100]

I always thought being posted to CFE in the eighties was a plus and kind of bonus. Guys bought special BMW's and brought them home etc.

I had friends that went.

 

[markppcli]

Isn't this the same mission where they currently are months behind on paying people their per diem, and they had to bring in a tiger team of clerks to catch up?

Hopefully the increase comes with suitable admin to do the basics; that's pretty embarassing.

Everyone wants more 'teeth' while hoping the things the 'tail' do just magically sort themselves out.

No that was guys teaching Ukrainians. Totally different situation.

@Spencer100 its a very very different animal than 3 years in Germany finding new and inventive ways to jam Heineken into your m1113. For some reason “operation” means you have to work 6 day weeks and report to the motor pool to stare at a LAV at 0700 daily. We had over 50 releases from my coy when we got back.

To the point t raised by others, Adazi is at least as big as some of the nearest towns to bases here, but it would require a substantial infrastructure commitment, and the building of schools ect. Latvia doesn’t really have military family … well anything really.

 

[Navy_Pete]

No that was guys teaching Ukrainians. Totally different situation.

I honestly can't tell if that's sarcasm or not.

 

[Kirkhill]

Half Sqn at a time, they’re moving to three tank Sqns. So in theory everyone will go every three years. 12 RBC and RCDs will take on the Recce troop task.

Half a Squadron effectively is the same as a Swedish or Ukrainian Company isn't it? About 10 tanks?

 

[markppcli]

I honestly can't tell if that's sarcasm or not.

Not at all. The per diems and buying their own food issue wasn’t Latvia. Unifier is where those problems came up.

 

[markppcli]

Half a Squadron effectively is the same as a Swedish or Ukrainian Company isn't it? About 10 tanks?

They’re sending 15 but deploying half Sqns so I assume they have included spares.

 

[KevinB]

Moving families requires a large infra footprint, to a place where we currently have people ten to a room. Might be a long term objective, but can't see that happening in the near term.

Well I did recall seeing that @Humphrey Bogart posted something about CP rail building condos inside 6 months…
I’m pretty sure the CAF and the Latvian Gov could get something done fairly quickly.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Well I did recall seeing that @Humphrey Bogart posted something about CP rail building condos inside 6 months…
I’m pretty sure the CAF and the Latvian Gov could get something done fairly quickly.

48 condos in six months to be exact.

 

[KevinB]

48 condos in six months to be exact.

And as big as CP is, something tells me they aren’t as big as the GOC or GOL in terms of procurement $