"UnitedHealthcare CEO is fatally shot in a ‘targeted attack’ outside a New York hotel"

[brihard]

So, killing an industry executive is terrorism, but attacking the seat of government to prevent the peaceful transition of power is not. Got it.

It’s not merely who he killed, but why. Several of the Jan 6 Insurrectionists got terrorism sentencing enhancements. Note that at the federal level, the anpproach is generally terrorism sentencing enhancements on other existing criminal offences rather than defining many offences as acts of terrorism in and of themselves. There are some - terrorism financing, material support, etc, but by and large they simple charge and prosecute the base offence (eg murder), and then terrorism comes in at sentencing if the prosecution builds a case supporting it. Mangione caught the direct terrorism murder charge at state level, not federal. I looked up how NYS defines its varieties of murder including the terrorism one and the fact set fits at first glance. By the same fact sets the feds might look at terrorism sentencing once they get there.

If what we know so far holds up - the evidence he was caught with - they have him absolutely dead to rights. Federally I bet they offer him a deal to stay off death row. Although then again the incoming AG might tell them no, go the whole way.

IMO, prosecuting this as a straightforward murder will be shit simple and would suffice. Send him to jail for life on that. However, the facts probably do fit for the legal definition of terrorism- looks like he committed his political motivations to writing and was found with that on his person. A fact set that clean makes it hard not to.

A lot will depend on what he envisions his day(s) in court looking like a couple years from now. He probably wants to make a spectacle. Either way he’s in jail for probably life; if he wants to continue to pursue his ideological objectives, the last tool in his tooolbox is martyrdom. And he’ll have a lot of sympathy and support in that.

 

[brihard]

Mangione is going to be made an example of with these charges.

The charges are more than your average school shooter gets for dropping a classroom full of 2nd Graders

Yes, though that’s beginning to change. 32 states have domestic terrorism offences on the books. Michigan charged a school shooter with terrorism as well as murder back in 2021 and got a guilty plea. I don’t know how Michigan defines ‘terrorism’; state definitions will vary. Some might be very narrow, some quite broad. They may have greater or lesser degrees of political or ideological motivation that need to be proven. Being bullied and pissed of and wanting revenge may not cut it. Alternatively, if someone has radicalized online and buys in to some really screwed up nihilistic ideology and shoots up a school in part because of that, it may fit.

It’s tougher looking at the U.S. because of 51 different state and federal criminal justice systems whereas we have one that applies the same statutory definitions everywhere.

 

[Halifax Tar]

So, killing an industry executive is terrorism, but attacking the seat of government to prevent the peaceful transition of power is not. Got it.

Its a screwed up world.

 

[brihard]

Its a screwed up world.

He’s incorrect though. As I mentioned domestic terrorism was applied at the sentencing phase to a number of the Jan 6 sedition convictions. That’s how it generally works federally if the predicate act is something that stands on its own like murder. They prosecute underlying offences, and terrorism comes in at sentencing. They didn’t throw terrorism sentencing at every Jan 6 case, but in most cases it likely wasn’t called for.

 

[PrairieFella]

Mangione is going to be made an example of with these charges.

The charges are more than your average school shooter gets for dropping a classroom full of 2nd Graders

Oh good, what could go wrong with making an example of someone unfairly while revolutionary sentiment is building around the guy and what he did. Martyr schmartyr.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Oh good, what could go wrong with making an example of someone unfairly while revolutionary sentiment is building around the guy and what he did. Martyr schmartyr.

The fact that Amazon remains sold out of Luigi merchandise for the 3rd week in a row is indication enough.

 

[PrairieFella]

The fact that Amazon remains sold out of Luigi merchandise for the 3rd week in a row is indication enough.

They might want to try and relieve some pressure here, not Stoke the fire. But I digress, I don't really care one way or the other.

 

[QV]

So, killing an industry executive is terrorism, but attacking the seat of government to prevent the peaceful transition of power is not. Got it.

But that's not what happened. The protest was about perceived fraud in vote counting and those folks wanted a delay until it could be investigated. If it were terrorism, I'm guessing there would have been real violence.

High chance a number of Jan 6th protestors are pardoned and several Jan 6th Committee people are investigated over destruction of evidence and other crimes. And I know how you will all be 100% behind these pursuits of justice and potential court decisions, particularly indictments of committee members, because you have maximum faith in that system.

 

[Jarnhamar]

The fact that Amazon remains sold out of Luigi merchandise for the 3rd week in a row is indication enough.

The US put itself in a weird entertainment corner. Sales often go up of particular firearms used in high profile mass shootings.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... I read the federal probable cause affidavit for arrest, but haven’t found a copy of the full indictment yet; if anyone does let me know please.

This is, or is this what you've already seen?

 

[brihard]

But that's not what happened. The protest was about perceived fraud in vote counting and those folks wanted a delay until it could be investigated. If it were terrorism, I'm guessing there would have been real violence.

In the interest of a factual discussion, the courts determined that a number of the most serious cases, particularly the convictions for seditious conspiracy, constituted terrorism, and sentenced accordingly. As of a year ago at least 123 defendants were charged with assaulting police officers with weapons, and/or with causing them serious bodily injury. At least 140 officers were assaulted. There have been further charges against other defendants for assaulting media. The violence was real enough, and this is reflected in the terrorism sentencing enhancements for some of those convicted of seditious conspiracy.

This is, or is this what you've already seen?

That’s the one I saw already, but it’s a clearer copy, thanks.

I’m really interested to read more about the contents of his notebook and his letter to the feds.

 

[dimsum]

But that's not what happened. The protest was about perceived fraud in vote counting and those folks wanted a delay until it could be investigated. If it were terrorism, I'm guessing there would have been real violence.

so the act that precipitated the guard shooting Ashli Babbitt wasn’t real violence?

 

[dimsum]

The fact that Amazon remains sold out of Luigi merchandise for the 3rd week in a row is indication enough.

Quick - someone AI-generate “The Purge” but with everyone in Luigi costumes

 

[Blackadder1916]

I read the federal probable cause affidavit for arrest, but haven’t found a copy of the full indictment yet; if anyone does let me know please.

The NY State/Manhattan DA indictment

https://manhattanda.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Mangione-Indictment-FINAL-as-filed.pdf

 

[The Bread Guy]

Quick - someone AI-generate “The Purge” but with everyone in Luigi costumes

Quick enough?

Meanwhile ....

Heroism attributed to suspect Luigi Mangione alarming - Mayorkas

The US Homeland Security Secretary says rhetoric about the murder suspect is concerning.

www.bbc.com

 

[brihard]

The NY State/Manhattan DA indictment

https://manhattanda.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Mangione-Indictment-FINAL-as-filed.pdf

I’m looking for the federal one. The actual DOJ indictment documents, usually drafted by an FBI investigator, usually have a quite detailed narrative. You can get a lot of the basic story of the offence and evidence that way. They’re generally quite succinct and informative documents.

 

[brihard]

The fact that Amazon remains sold out of Luigi merchandise for the 3rd week in a row is indication enough.

Random point of maybe nothing at all. Just got home from Christmas shopping; Indigo had a bunch of Super Mario stuff in the kids’ section. There were still some Mario ornaments left; no Luigis.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Quick enough?
View attachment 89996

What program is that made with?

 

[The Bread Guy]

What program is that made with?

https://creator.nightcafe.studio/

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Oh good, what could go wrong with making an example of someone unfairly while revolutionary sentiment is building around the guy and what he did. Martyr schmartyr.

The effect that one persons actions can have on the general public is interesting. The whole Arab Spring was kicked off by a street vendor setting himself on fire in despair. When a large amount of average people are in despair and don't see a way out, these sort of events become a catalyst.